I just KNEW that whoever killed Harry had to be good, but I never expected it to be himself.
I can't wait for the reactions when they all find out he is alive... would love to be a fly on the wall of the fomor headquarters as they collectivel cry and run screaming out of chicago...
what do you guys think about the ending? Some reason it didn't leave me excited for the next book. I'm glad he's alive and all back as the winter knight but what's the whole ordeal of the demonreach and mab? It barely left room for a suspense moment but saying stuff has to be done for the court. Seems like it could of ended in a more dramatic mind thinking matter then that.
what do you guys think about the ending? Some reason it didn't leave me excited for the next book. I'm glad he's alive and all back as the winter knight but what's the whole ordeal of the demonreach and mab? It barely left room for a suspense moment but saying stuff has to be done for the court. Seems like it could of ended in a more dramatic mind thinking matter then that.After Changes, I can live with the more staid ending. But, it does setup at least two books more. One with Mab central and another with Demonreach. Dresden has to pay the piper sooner or later.
Does anyone got any idea about the familiar female voice at the end of Changes? It didn't seems to got that answer from reading ghost story. Or is that still not yet answered yet? Or maybe I miss something. The best candidate as far as I can gather from reading Ghost Story is Mab, and I really doubted it.
Why do you doubt it? I mean its awfully reasonable :P. I think its his mother, personally, because the amulet that showed Harry the Ways back in Changes held her voice. :P Though its possible that its Lea, since she is Winter and instructed to take care of Harry(or his body).
Karrin - How do you all think Murphy is going to react to finding out that a) Harry is alive , b) Harry arranged his own murder and all the consequences that came from it, and c) that Harry used Kincaid, possibly the only other male romantic interest for her other than Harry, to do it. Personally I saw this novel as the death knell for any possible romantic hookup between Harry and Murphy. It reminds me of Harry's reaction to Susan not telling him about maggie. "We're done, you knew it when you didn't tell me about my child" or something to that extent. I can't see Murphy forgiving Harry for what he's done to the city, his friends or her, regardless of him having the best of intentions.
Molly - As much as I love Harry's character, once we found out that Harry used Molly to arrange his own murder, I kinda lost a little (still love him) respect for him as a man. It was possibly the single most selfish thing he has ever done. Thoughtless AND selfish, especially after seeing the toll it has taken upon Molly both in the physical and mental side of the coin. I personally think that they are setting up Molly as his H.E.E. down the line, as she fulfills all the holes in a relationship that would be setbacks to Karrin and Harry getting together. She's a wizard and can relat to that side of his life, she's going to live a couple centuries (barring anyone dying) and she's already stated how hard its going to be to watch all her friends and family die around her. Thus making her more reliant on her relationship with Harry. But I wonder how she's going to recover from the ordeal set out in gHOST Story, plus however long it takes Harry to get back to Chicago from the Winter Court.
I did like parts of how his relationship with Molly is changing, as exemplefied by the whole conversation they had in the restaraunt, and the honesty with which molly let out her feelings towards him. Furthermore the revelation that Harry had decided on a ... i guess you could call it a "pet name" for Molly for when she wasn't his apprentice anymore, sorta puts her on the level with Murphy as being the only other woman in his life with that level familiarity.
Karrin - How do you all think Murphy is going to react to finding out that a) Harry is alive , b) Harry arranged his own murder and all the consequences that came from it, and c) that Harry used Kincaid, possibly the only other male romantic interest for her other than Harry, to do it. Personally I saw this novel as the death knell for any possible romantic hookup between Harry and Murphy. It reminds me of Harry's reaction to Susan not telling him about maggie. "We're done, you knew it when you didn't tell me about my child" or something to that extent. I can't see Murphy forgiving Harry for what he's done to the city, his friends or her, regardless of him having the best of intentions.
I lost a lot of respect for Harry in regards to what he did to Molly. I'd say that's probably the most effed up thing he's knowingly done in the series to date, and that goes beyond the whole murdering Susan thing. It was truly a terrible thing he did to Molly, and I really hope he'll repair it over the next book or two.
I can't imagine her reaction to the shooter being Kincaid. I just can't. But mostly, I think she will be angry at Harry, and would probably rule out a relationship in the next couple of books, but I don't think it would be the same as what happened with Susan.
1. The Sidhe cannot -knowingly- tell a lie. Mab could believe harry is hers, especially after bending so many knights before him to her purposes.
Well, first of all, I think Karrin will feel betrayed. I mean, when they were talking in his appartment in Changes, when he told her what was happening, she put herself in the line for him, she promised she would be there to the end with him to get his daughter back, she compromised. But when the time came, he did not tell her of his suicide plan, that would be the motive she would feel betrayed, him hidding things from her. I think she could actually understand his motives for doing so, though. She knew what was at line.
What he did to the city? I don't know, the city went to hell because the Red Court was killed and yes, also because he was gone, but mostly because of the power vacum. I don't think she would hold it against him. Again, she knew what was in line when she set up to the mission with him.
I can't imagine her reaction to the shooter being Kincaid. I just can't. But mostly, I think she will be angry at Harry, and would probably rule out a relationship in the next couple of books, but I don't think it would be the same as what happened with Susan.
I had a different place for Maggie Sr. to show up (by the way, thank you to all of you who post regularly, i haven't had this much fun dissecting a book since college). When Harry materializes, the only thing he doesn't have is his pentagram amulet. Maggie Sr. gave him the amulet, and then in Changes the insert which contained her knowledge of the Ways... so does it make sense that she's the "parasite" who's making his blood flow on Demonreach? Perhaps a shade of herself (like Lash was) is actually imprinted on the amulet... which would be really fun if Harry were to give little Maggie his amulet to help her in her training when she discovers her magical powers...
Then again, i might just be suffering from sleep deprevation ;D... thank you, thank you, thank you Mr. Butcher - these are amazing.
Am I the only one who thinks that Murph already suspects that it was Kincaid that killed Harry? Didn't it say in the book that she almost went out of her way to not mention him as a suspect?
I'm about a third of the way through my second read through, so I might be mistaken, but that's something that kind of popped out to me last night. Well, second FULL read through. I went back and reread the last 125 pages or so last night, because the final 'scenes' were just great.
As for how angry she'll be when she finds out that Harry set it all up himself, I really don't know if it's going to be a HUGE problem. I mean, I'm sure she'll be pissed, but I think that if she finds out that he didn't even mention it to Thomas, it might mollify(heh) her a little bit.
Not to be mean or anything but the Harry at the moment didn't know that he had set himself up to go boom. And yeah I was never a Harry/Murphy shipper, alway be more frineds then girlfriend. lol, but I think this prob but the kobosh on it EVER happening. Just hope it doesnt destroy their friendship as well.
And as for everyone that complaining about the way he did Molly. He knows how messed up what he did is. At a moment in his life when he was thinking about only one thing, he hurt many of the people he cares about. But what eating him the most, from my pov, is how close he come to destroying Molly.
Timeout I think we are forgetting a major detail about Harry's decision to arrrange his own murder. Firstly that despair and reasoning wouldn't have come about if it was for the Fallen Angels whispers.
That being said, it's still going to be amazing to see how he repairs the relationships that he damaged in Changes/Ghost Story all the while balancing the demands of Mab/Chicago/White Council.
I think we're all working under the assumption that Harry is actually going to tell people that he's alive. Will he? He say how devastated everyone was and how they've all started to finally accept he's gone. Not to mention his daughter is with the Carpenters. He can't be around them now if he's trying to keep her identity secret. Not to mention all the other stuff that just went down.
So will he? I'm sure eventually he will, someone is bound to find out sooner or later. But I'm putting my money on not sooner. I see a lot of court politics and bad guy chasing in the future. Either in the Never Never or in the shadows- maybe not even in Chicago! At least for the next book or two. I mean he's always been in Chicago but some bad stuff be a brewin' and he's off to Faerie so who knows when he'll show up on the streets again.
*-Btw, anyone else excited over what is, to me at least, clearly an homage to Rothfuss?
Hi, everyone, first post.
With regard to Uriel's seven words: Uriel says that Mab is lying, but we know she is incapable of lying (Mr. Butcher thoughtfully wrote us a scene in this very book in which Dresden reminds us of this). On the other hand, nowhere is it said the Uriel is incapable of lying. He certainly seems to find it distasteful, but presumably he is capable of it, especially when issues of cosmic balance are involved.
The Fallen sent Harry along one path with a seven word* lie. It seems logical that Uriel would think it fitting to give him back his free will with another (a white lie in this case, and one that gives Harry the, perhaps misguided, courage to stand up to Mab). Bottom line: Harry is wrong. Mab has more control over him than he thinks she does.
Harry thinks she knows: "You can't make me your monster. Doesn't work. And you know it."
It was odd that we did not see or hear of Ebenezer McCoy. Considering that he dropped a satellite on the last people to mess with Dresden, I would have expected him to be on a major vendetta against whoever might be responsible for murdering Dresden. Given that Kincaid pulled the trigger (even at Harry's request), I wonder why McCoy wasn't after Kincaid. Only explanation I can come up with is that McCoy quietly investigated, found out everything somehow (including that Dresden's body was being kept alive), and decided his involvement was not required.
I think McCoy has to have his hands tied by the Council
Anyone else have characters in mind that you were pretty well convinced you'd see in action in Ghost Story - but didn't?
Malcolm Dresden
Ebenezer McCoy
Sgt Rawlins
I meant tied more in the sense that there is probably a lot going on with the WC we don't know about, and I'm sure McCoy is in the thick of it. He might want to find Harry's killer, but he might also be too preoccupied.
Well, I find it unlikely. "Boy, sorry I did not have time to avenge your murder, I was busy for 6 months after you were killed. Lots of paperwork, you understand."
Hi, everyone, first post.Mab cannot intentionally lie. She can say something out of ignorance. Plus she probably has bullied the majority of her knights.
With regard to Uriel's seven words: Uriel says that Mab is lying, but we know she is incapable of lying (Mr. Butcher thoughtfully wrote us a scene in this very book in which Dresden reminds us of this). On the other hand, nowhere is it said the Uriel is incapable of lying. He certainly seems to find it distasteful, but presumably he is capable of it, especially when issues of cosmic balance are involved.
The Fallen sent Harry along one path with a seven word* lie. It seems logical that Uriel would think it fitting to give him back his free will with another (a white lie in this case, and one that gives Harry the, perhaps misguided, courage to stand up to Mab). Bottom line: Harry is wrong. Mab has more control over him than he thinks she does.
*-Btw, anyone else excited over what is, to me at least, clearly an homage to Rothfuss?
I don't think anyone has attempted to dispute that fact, not do i disagree that the fallen whispering to him was ultimately responsible for him attempting to end his own life. What I take umbrage at is the fact that he USED molly to further those ends. Sure the fallen may have convinced him that he had to kill himself to protect those he loved, but I certainly doubt that it told him he had to involve Molly to the extent of being completely complicit in the death of the man she loves most in the world. She flat out told him "do you know what this is going to do to me?" in terms of destroying her heart, and he forged on ahead sure of the righteous nature of his actions.
Let's be sure of one thing here, i'm not saying that this has destroyed my faith in Harry, quite the contrary. It's made him seem even more human, more relatable, as he has F'd up huge here. But it's still, by far, leaps and bounds worse than anything he has consciously chosen to do in the series so far, and to do it to someone that he loves makes it worse still.
Guys, Do you think the fomor sign the unceli accords? I think not but I cannot confirm it.
Guys, Do you think the fomor sign the unceli accords? I think not but I cannot confirm it. Does anyone can? Do you guys think that Mab have Harry's pentacle along with Magi SR's ruby? Is the 'Die alone death curse fulfilled? And that part about the whispering Fallen, is it one of the Dinarians or it is just another fallen? I thought fallen inside a coin cannot do that unless the coin holder is arround and the other fallen outside of the 30 in the coin are not allowed to do anything without prmision. Or is it something else entirely. As far as I can gather, Yuriel never actually confirm it is a fallen. He just say it is something in the same league as a fallen. Can anyone shed any light in the matter?
Harry is now antihero/magnificent bastard for what he did to murphy thomas and above all Molly. Let the world burn indeed. gahhhhdammit jim!!! awesome...He only wronged Molly
Oh and Rag Lady tactics pretty badass...
Harry is now antihero/magnificent bastard for what he did to murphy thomas and above all Molly. Let the world burn indeed. gahhhhdammit jim!!! awesome...
Well, two important things re: Eb and the White Council.
1. We know Ebenezar knows what Demonreach is, and that Harry's the new Winter Knight. Seems logical he could put 2 and 2 together and realize that Mab doesn't like being cheated and that Demonreach's "custodian" won't just go quietly into the night.
2. Question: Have any other members of the White Council cheated death? Do they know of anyone who has? I can't see Harry as the first person a Fallen has ever whispered murderous lies to.
Am I the only one who thinks that Murph already suspects that it was Kincaid that killed Harry?
With regard to Uriel's seven words: Uriel says that Mab is lying, but we know she is incapable of lying (Mr. Butcher thoughtfully wrote us a scene in this very book in which Dresden reminds us of this). On the other hand, nowhere is it said the Uriel is incapable of lying. He certainly seems to find it distasteful, but presumably he is capable of it, especially when issues of cosmic balance are involved.Holy freaking crap, I just had a scary thought.
About Molly, I agree, he knows what he did to her, and he feels terrible for it. Molly was his big concern in this book, like his daughter was in Changes. He feels responsable for everything that happens to her. And he should, to some degree. She agreed to it, after all.
There are other Fallen Angels, though...one who is a great deal more powerful than Nicodemus and his crew, and Harry has suspected that That One has been cheating for some time now.
Consider the whispering Fallen...
In previous stories, it's been mentioned that the Knights of the Cross are the countering agent to the Denarians. Since the Denarians are capable of choosing to relinquish their coins, they are still free-willed agents. I don't see how, should one of the Nickelheads have chosen to whisper a lie to Harry, it could be considered "cheating".
There are other Fallen Angels, though...one who is a great deal more powerful than Nicodemus and his crew, and Harry has suspected that That One has been cheating for some time now.
"Pleased to meet you...won't you guess my name?"
So, which of the Fallen whispered in Harry's ear in the flashback from Changes? The Fallen looked like a shadow, so maybe Nicodemus?
Also, it was interesting that Mab lied to Harry. Harry always thought that the Fae were incapable of lying, but Uriel confirmed Mab's lie in the first of his seven words.
He Who Walks Behind is a demon right?No. He's an Outsider.
No, Harry thinks it too. Great minds think alike ;)
Maybe I'm just not remembering, but has there been any mention in the DV about "namers"? I had thought that was mostly a Rothfuss idea. I could see myself getting on board with the idea of Harry having some sort of affinity with names, but as far as I can remember there hasn't been any real mention of it so far. Not until Uriel's seemingly overreaction to being called Uri. Which I still think might just be due to removing "of God" from his name. He may have just taken it as being brought down to the level of the Fallen, but that's probably reaching.
I'm going to go back and read Changes now, but my biggest question with this is... why didn't Uriel say something back when Harry called him the first time? Harry summoned Uriel after the Fallen had shown up and done it's thing, so he could have fixed it right then and there. The only thing he mentioned was to consider Odin's words carefully, but I don't see how it would have made any difference (though I could just not be remembering everything).
Consider the whispering Fallen...
In previous stories, it's been mentioned that the Knights of the Cross are the countering agent to the Denarians. Since the Denarians are capable of choosing to relinquish their coins, they are still free-willed agents. I don't see how, should one of the Nickelheads have chosen to whisper a lie to Harry, it could be considered "cheating".
There are other Fallen Angels, though...one who is a great deal more powerful than Nicodemus and his crew, and Harry has suspected that That One has been cheating for some time now.
"Pleased to meet you...won't you guess my name?"
Maybe I'm just not remembering, but has there been any mention in the DV about "namers"? I had thought that was mostly a Rothfuss idea. I could see myself getting on board with the idea of Harry having some sort of affinity with names, but as far as I can remember there hasn't been any real mention of it so far. Not until Uriel's seemingly overreaction to being called Uri. Which I still think might just be due to removing "of God" from his name. He may have just taken it as being brought down to the level of the Fallen, but that's probably reaching.
This makes me think two things:
1. I knew the "el" ending was important and related to God, but that makes me wonder why Lasciel still uses the "el" tag on her name.
2. If Harry removing the "el" tag from Uriel's name would have had a negative effect on Uriel, as is theorized above, what effect did Harry renaming Lasciel's shadow "Lash" have on her?
Before you reply, please remember I'm theorizing further based on the quoted theory.
On a sidenote: Any thoughts on the parasite mentioned by Demonreach at the end of the Book?
^ i don't know if i can buy that seein as Demonreach made the distinction between Here (the island) providing nourishment and the parasite providing the blood flow. So far i've read Lash or his mom. I'm leanin more towards Lash unless his amulet has something to do with the situation.
My body digests food and my parasites aid in the digestion process.If they aid you, they aren't parasites ;)
So I read about Harry being painless, and I wondered - when Mab healed him to fight the Red King, was anything about his hand mentioned? I have Changes and can look, but I know you guys with near-eidetic memories might be faster.Mab digs scars :D
#101 “When Queen Mab heals Harry to become the Winter Knight does she also heal his burned hand?”
No.
Mab digs scars.
So, at the end there with Molly and Corpsetaker, when Corpsetaker puts a bullet into the back of Harry's head: I can only imagine how that must have seemed to Molly under her veil. There's Harry again, and he's just been re-killed in front of her eyes. Might have something to do with the fury she directs at Corpsetaker right after that.
No, the simplest explanation is usually the best. Look at how Demonreach talks. It uses odd words for things. It would not sound right if Demonreach called it a "tree". Parasite is the sort of odd word Demonreach would use to refer to the tree.
And the distinction you refer to is hardly important. My body digests food and my parasites aid in the digestion process. Just two different ways of referring to a process at different levels.
I just realized the fight between Bob and his Bad Self was never resolved from what I know. Did he/they get stuck in the NeverNever for Harry to rescue when going to court?
Or did I miss something being mentioned about Bob sitting in Butter's flashlight case at the end?
Who got Morgan's sword?
Except that the "parasite" is specifically mentioned in connection with the circulation of blood, not of digestion. Remember the tree is associated with IV tubes going into Harry. But *something* still needs to keep his heart beating.
3. Am I the only one who saw this book as definitely putting the kibosh on Harry/Molly? p. 442: "...and crushes probably didn't last for years. Did they? They faded. Molly's feelings hadn't, but I didn't reciprocate them. I loved her to pieces but I was never going to be in love with her." That seems pretty definite to me....
It seemed that way to me too. But people in this forum make you think about that one. So, I went back and read, then I got confused because maybe he was just in denial. But (maybe I'm just too much of a "shipper" and I just prefer him with Murph and that's clouding my judgement because I'm so not seeing what most people are seeing now regarding the Harry/Molly thing) I'm back to: it seemed pretty final that Harry just doesn't love her that way.
Your Harry/Murphy feelings are *obviously* clouding your judgement! :P
I didn't really ship Harry/Molly before this book, but all of Harry's protestations regarding his lack of romantic interest in Molly came across as him being in denial to me. Especially with how he normally keeps his head where the sun don't shine in regards to women. ;D
Why do you assume something needs to keep the heart beating? The tree could be filtering the blood and providing pressure to circulate the blood as well. Which seems to be what you said in your first sentence, anyway ("circulation").
So, which of the Fallen whispered in Harry's ear in the flashback from Changes? The Fallen looked like a shadow, so maybe Nicodemus?
Also, it was interesting that Mab lied to Harry. Harry always thought that the Fae were incapable of lying, but Uriel confirmed Mab's lie in the first of his seven words.
Your Harry/Murphy feelings are *obviously* clouding your judgement! :P
Was there ever a real chance of a Harry/Molly romance? Even leaving apart the age difference, the sheer inappropriateness of a romance between a wizard and his apprentice, and the Doom of Damocles, you'd think even Harry would know better than to risk being torn limb from limb by the only dark power that even he fears. I refer, of course, to Molly's mother, Charity. And Michael would let her do it.
That's true! It's been stated over and over in the books that the Sidhe don't lie, but then Uriel states it plain as day here... curiouser and curiouser...
and since harry is winter knight and alive does he have to live in the NN or does he have to commute to chi
i have a few questions that i cant think of a answer to
-so if Bob lost the fight to Evil bob would it be possible for Evil Bob to "eat" bob and gain all the knowledge
-did Harry instantly wake up after Uriel brought him back or was there a time elapse
-what does Demonreach exactly mean when it calls harry its custodian
-and since harry is winter knight and alive does he have to live in the NN or does he have to commute to chi
I for one am a "dies alone shipper."
Romance is schlocky and for chicks who can't get dates (yes, I am being overly harsh and simplistic, sorry). There are only two kinds of romances a guy like me likes in their fiction. The first is a long time couple trying to make things work after being together so long. Think Everybody Loves Raymond. The second is a guy who through hard work, can do attitude, honesty, and good nature scores a chick outside his league. When a character is one of the most powerful humans on the planet, the outside his league thing is off the table.
So, give me a Dresden continually confounded by love and all on his own trying to right by the people in his life. I really do hope the "Die Alone" death curse is still in effect.
On another note, does anyone think the voice at the end of Changes might be an angel of death? At first I thought it was Lash, and then I thought is was Mab, but upon rethinking the book, the angel of death, like the one waiting to take Forthill's soul, makes a lot of sense as well.
Who knows, Bob sealed away Evil Bob, and then permanently split with him creating Evil Bob in the first place. I suppose if the two rejoin there would be a battle to see who would take control and seal the other away. More likely, Evil Bob remains as a villain and thorn in Harry's side.
Presumably right away, but GS did the time skip thing to start, so it might have done it again. Dresden's revival is in the hands of 3 nigh on immortals: Mab, Uriel, and Demonreach. A month or a year is all relative to them.
Well, Dresden did form a simbiotic relationship with Demonreach in Turn Coat, turning it into a Spirit Sanctum or something similar. We don't know anything more than that, except the White Council views the island as special.
The Summer Knight killed in Book 4 lived in Chicago. I imagine Dresden will be able to establish a residence in Chicago and use the Ways to go to the Nevernever when needed.
i have a few questions that i cant think of a answer to
-so if Bob lost the fight to Evil bob would it be possible for Evil Bob to "eat" bob and gain all the knowledge
I think someone in this forum had speculated before that maybe that Harry is some sort of Namer. The end of Ghost story, where Yuriel seems to be really upset when Harry shorten his name to Yuri but blink and said that calling him Mr. Sunshine is appropriate is quite a circumstancial evidence on that theory. What do you guys think?
the "El" Part of any angel name means God (i.e. MichaEL, GabriEL, RaphaEL, et.) so to remove that is highly disrespectfully bordering on blasphemous.
-- Fitz -- what's his ongoing role? I think he was introduced pretty thoroughly for the relatively small part he played in the story. Will he be brought into the Chicago Alliance?
"You...just get to whisper in my ear?" To whisper seven words, in fact, he said.
And a voice-very calm, very gentle, very rationale voice whispered in my ear, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are." I struggled and twitched my fingers. "Five," I muttered, "Six. Seven. Heh." I couldn't help it. I laughed again. It hurt like hell and and felt wonderful. "Heh. Heh."
Two quotes are explanation enough for me as to the identity of the whisperer.
Seven word equals Uriel.
I don't remember this... what exactly are you referring to?
And the Denarians are not free willed beings. Only the people possessing the coins still have free will. The Fallen themselves are still technically Angels and subsequently have never been given free will.
Absolutely dumbfounded. Truly an excellent way to end that novel.
Argh! I need to stop getting into series early. Wait times kill me!
I would also like to add that Harry as the Winter Knight amplifying his own power plus the sponsored soulfire has to be close to the same power as that of the senior council. I doubt that many off the senior council would be much of a match for Harry!
anyone else expect these initially completely irrelevant and puny faeries to end up as moderately heavy hitters in dresden's arsenal?
If the shadow was not lasciel, I would be curious to know how it got into the church... Can fallen enter holy found with impunity?
Hmm is it possible to have a Fallen possess or cooperate with a human being? without being a considered a Denarian?
i didn't read this entire topic so maybe i missed this.. but has anyone expressed thoughts on how harry being in the winter court will effect his Za Lord Guards power. seems like getting Winter sponsorship is gonna swell their magical muscles alittle.. anyone else expect these initially completely irrelevant and puny faeries to end up as moderately heavy hitters in dresden's arsenal?
Did anyone ever think that the flashback memories were about Elaine also and not just He Who Walks Behind? She was a significant person in Harry's life. The only reason they did not look back at that those feelings was because Susan was in the picture. What is to stop it now? Maybe that is why Harry/Molly feels forced.
Mab is not lying, Uriel is.I started a very similar thread not long ago ;)
Uriel is lying when he says Mab can't change him, and Harry knows he's lying. But the truth of his seven words is irellevant. They are encouraging, and they let Harry realize he can still fight becominng a monster, even beholden to Mab.
If the shadow was not lasciel, I would be curious to know how it got into the church... Can fallen enter holy found with impunity?
On the subject of Mab lying and Uriel confirming it:
Mab is not lying, Uriel is.
Harry confirms that Mab is absolutely capable of changing him. He just makes her realize that doing so is not without consequences, that the very wiles and guilefullness that leads him to defy her are the very qualities that makes her want him as her Knight in the first place.
Uriel is lying when he says Mab can't change him, and Harry knows he's lying. But the truth of his seven words is irellevant. They are encouraging, and they let Harry realize he can still fight becominng a monster, even beholden to Mab.
Uriel has to balance the scales against the shadow' lie. The shadows lie clouded Harry's ability to choose to keewp fighting, to never give up. Uriel's lie let Harry see that there were options. (IE that even though Mab definately could change him, he also could definately convince her not to.)
Chauncy is not a Fallen. He's a demon.
The Fallen are demons.Which doesn't mean that Chauncy is a Fallen. Wolvess are carnivores, and felines are carnivores too, but wolves aren't felines.
The Fallen are demons. Remember, demon is just a generic term for supernatural and evil entity. Thus the Fallen, the Outsiders, and others are types of demons. While Fool Moon doesn't explicitly call Chauncy a Fallen, it was only the second book and the Fallen weren't introduced until Death Masks.
Which doesn't mean that Chauncy is a Fallen. Wolvess are carnivores, and felines are carnivores too, but wolves aren't felines.
The Fallen have names ending with -el (because they were angels). Chauncy's full name, IIRC, is Chaunzaggoroth (sp?). Besides, I really doubt that Harry's circle would have been capable of imprisoning a Fallen.
Just as Harry temporarily lost the advantage of Lash's services and Hellfire before he was gifted Soulfire by Uriel, Harry may effectively be at a level with the senior council of the White Court.The Senior Council, part of the White Council, of wizards is not the same thing as the White Court of vampires.
Er...Is it a coincidence that the last time a skinwalker was mentioned confronting a warden, that warden was Morgan, who got rid of it at a nuclear test site, which might have occurred sometime during WW2, when such things were being done, and that it was during WW2 that Kemmler was last killed?AFAIR Morgan nuked a skinwalker in the 50s, and Kemmler was killed for good in 1961.
The Senior Council, part of the White Council, of wizards is not the same thing as the White Court of vampires.
No, the simplest explanation is usually the best. Look at how Demonreach talks. It uses odd words for things. It would not sound right if Demonreach called it a "tree". Parasite is the sort of odd word Demonreach would use to refer to the tree.
And the distinction you refer to is hardly important. My body digests food and my parasites aid in the digestion process. Just two different ways of referring to a process at different levels.
Except that the "parasite" is specifically mentioned in connection with the circulation of blood, not of digestion. Remember the tree is associated with IV tubes going into Harry. But *something* still needs to keep his heart beating. I think that some fragment of Lash remaining behind is the most likely explanation.
Demonreach said this: "Mab gave you breath. Here provided nourishment. The Parasite maintained the flow of blood."
I've been reading through this thread just to make sure I don't repeat anyone... There's a couple questions I have.
Am I the only one who made the connection between gods and demons thrown out from other places, living in the sea as a description of the Fomor and the Lovecraftian mythos? If Cthulhu shows up in the next book, I would be extremely surprised, but strangely satisfied
He still have no idea what Demonreach's other powers are besides local intellectus. We also don't know what "lives on the other side" of the island. Plus, it almost seems that Mab is scared of Demonreach in the last couple chapters of Ghost Story. Wonder of wonders, eh? The whole significance of the island being the "spring" of dark energy as opposed to just a channel for it also still hasn't been explained. There's gotta be a pretty big baddie on the other side, but if The Gatekeeper, and Peabody are acquainted with it... Would that also imply that the Black Council/Circle (or whatever it's called) has some sort of alliance with this hypothetical Big Baddie?
I want to see the Erlking back. That guy was a boss. In conjunction with that, will Thomas eventually have to hunt Harry? Does the Erlking have a mortal knight (now or has he ever had one)?
Concerning necromancy and death in "shades of gray", how could Kemmler, the most accomplished necromancer mentioned in the series so far, just drop into death and bid farewell to life so easily when one of his apprentices, Corpsetaker, only took a year to almost return him/her/itself to a body. I see an Evil Bob and Kemmler reunion. Or maybe Kemmler put part of himself into Evil Bob? I'm speculating pretty hardcore right now.
I have several questions that I STILL haven't seen answers for, and I'd expected them after Changes.in reverse order-5. the corspestaker was nutters&doesn't play well with others. plus, there are many more books.
1. Who is Harry's grandmother (Maggie's mother/Ebenezar's lover)? Is it Summer Queen Titania? Jim Butcher said years ago in a talk that Titania hadn't been introduced for a reason. I can only assume he was saving her for a later book.
2. Why was Bob so nervous about a) the NeverNever and b) Mab? Is he totally screwed now that Harry is the Winter Knight, since he wanted absolutely nothing to do with anything that would bring him into Mab's view?
3. What was the POINT of Harry being sent back? To rescue Molly, kill Corpsetaker and assist the rest of the Chicago crew? Or did Uriel have a more advanced motive? I did a quick read-through for my first pass and am halfway through my second pass of Ghost Story, so perhaps I missed something.
4. Do we have titles for the remaining volumes of the 20-volume Dresden Files cycle?
5. Why didn't we see a return of the Nightmare? There were a few shades I'd have expected to appear along with Corpsetaker.
And finally, props to Butters (my favorite supporting character) and Mort. I'm just disappointed that Tyrannasaurus Sue didn't make an appearance, since ghostly types were the focus of this book.
Corpsetaker, only took a year to almost return him/her/itself to a body
I mean, any dark magic wizard could break the Fourth Law of Magic and enthrall someone. A practitioner of enough power could even do it to Harry.
Are you saying that Mab doesn't have that power?
The way that I took it, when Mab snapped at Demonreach that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, was that as long as Harry thought it was possible for her to do so, it WAS true. So Mab wasn't lying even though her statement was not empirically true.
ON another note, one thing that irked me was how, in Harry's remembering of the time Molly erased from his memory, Kincaid seemed not to remember that he had just heard from Harry several hours or a day or two ago. I have the audiobook so pinpointing the exact moment would take a while. Can anyone with the physical book provide the text for the phone calls from Changes and Ghost Story?
(Leaving out all the interstitial material for the sake of the beating my fingers are going to take today ;D)
"It's Kincaid."
"Dresden," I replied. "This line probably isn't clear."
"I know. What do you want?"
"I need to find a child. She was taken by the Red Court a few days ago. We believe her to be somewhere in Mexico."
"Somewhere in Mexico? You tried walking around and yelling her name really loud yet?"
"I'm getting there. Look, does she know anything or not?"
"Ivy says she can't get involved. That the business you're on is deadly. She dares not unbalance it for fear of changing the outcome."
"Goddammit, Kinkaid, she owes me one. Remind her who came and took her away from those fucking Denarian lunatics."
"Believe me, she remembers, Dresden. But she isn't free to share her knowledge like you or me. When she says she can't tell you, she's being literal. She physically cannot let such information leave her head."
"Tell her that this is information I must have. If she can't help me I'll be taking it up with other sources. The ones in my green notebook."
"She can't tell you where the girl is. But she says she can tell you someone who might."
"Any help would be greatly appreciated."
"She says to tell you that before you try the green book, there's something else you might consider. The last man you want to see might have useful information."
"Dammit. Dammit."
"Kincaid."
"It's Dresden."
"Harry. What's up?"
"You owe me a favor. For that thing with Ivy on the island."
"Damn right."
"I'm calling it in."
"Okay. You want some backup or something?"
"I have a target for you."
"Tell me."
"The new Winter Knight."
"There's a new one?"
"There's going to be."
"How do you... It's like that."
"There's a good reason."
"Yeah?"
"There's a little girl."
"You'll know it's coming."
"No. I won't. I'll see to it."
"Okay. When?"
"Anytime after noon tomorrow. The sooner the better."
"Okay."
"You can find me?"
"Yeah."
"Be sure."
"I pay my debts."
"Yeah. Thanks."
"Thanking me. That's new."
"I told you that I could not make open contact with your conscious mind. That is why I created Sheila."
There's only one such being who has been in the position to know Harry in particular that well. Lasciel's Shadow.
I think you are making a big assumption there -- you are assuming that the entity must "know" Harry and that such a process requires past association. But an angel-level entity may be capable of reading Harry's entire mind instantly, so it could "know" Harry even if that was the first time that it had encountered him.
My best guess, is the fact that her statement, "And it was all your fault, Harry," is an out-and-out lie. I know it seems pretty weird to say that a fallen angel lying might be out of bounds, but think about all the examples we've seen elsewhere in the books of the difference between actual, direct untruths and deception, manipulation and word games. Her statement, unlike the waffling and misleading commentary of the Sidhe was a claim that is simply not true. Not everything is Harry's fault, no matter how often he tells himself otherwise.
This idea, that the Fallen in the coins can no more directly lie to their victims than a Sidhe can, really appeals to me, in part because it seems to explain the simple fact that Lash never did seem to have directly lied to Harry, even when it would totally have been in her best interests to do so. She could hit him with illusions all day (which are far more deceptive than words, if you don't place some vast and particular weight of meaning on words), but when she said something, no matter how twisted up it was by her weird perspective, it seems to have been true.
If any old fallen angel could just walk up to any old human being and whisper lies in their ears, with the only possible drawback being the return whisper of an opposing angel? Well. I don't think the human race would have lasted this long.
In regards to Deomonreach referring to a parasite.
To an island, which is what Demonreach is, a tree might be considered a parasite as it lives off the minerals and water of the island. Minerals that are processed and released into the atmosphere would be effectively lost to the island.
Whatever Demonreach may encompass, the tree living on the island certainly would seem to be a parasite to Demonreach.
Except that parasites tend to not help the host or respond to its demands. When Harry reached through his connection with Demonreach, the trees obeyed his wish to dump...what was hiding in them?...in Turn Coat.
Is it too obvious to presume the parasite was Lash? As we learned from White Night the areas of his brain in which she was stored were destroyed, but given that they were only small bits all over the place and that wizard cells create identical copies when healing she could have returned by now and be tweaking strings out of shot. Furthermore as a parasite it is within her best interests to keep her host alive.
MAB GAVE YOU BREATH.
HERE (meaning I) PROVIDED NOURISHMENT.
THE PARASITE MAINTAINED THE FLOW OF BLOOD
Things That Bother Me (Of course, I need to find 'some' fault no matter how much I like the series.
* Then, there's what he's done with asking Kincaid of all people to do the dirty deed. Could he have contacted Marcone for a favor? Maybe not, but if Karrin finds out I can't imagine her taking it well. I think she is likely to be furious at 'both' Dresden and Kincaid.
+ Then there's poor Thomas. Hasn't this poor guy been through enough? How's he going to react to the fact that Dresden left it up to Molly to tell him, or not, Then, Molly left him wallowing in guilt, thinking that it was somehow partly his fault; rational or not. Let's face it, Thomas was still recovering from the worst form of torture by the Skinwalker.
Poor guy, first, his mother left him with a father she knew would kill him as soon as he reached maturity. I believe she was on the run for about five years (I may be wrong on this point,) but I believe Thomas was nine or ten when Harry was born. Knowing she might be caught/killed; she, at least, had already taken steps to ensure that Harry had a Fairy Godmother to look out for him.In addition, Harry was to recieve the legacy of her knowledge of the 'Paths'.
Then, there's Ebenezar mcCoy. As far as I can tell, he has never shown the slightest interest in his 'other' grandson. Of course, maybe he ignores Thomas because he hated his father.
Add to this the fact that Harry "never once thought about Thomas, not once since returning to Chicago" because Harry would feel shame about not trusting him. I haven't got a problem with the fact that he didn't tell Thomas. Lets face it, Thomas would have tried to stop it; but come on. I really had a hard time with the fact that Harry would deliberately forget about his brother.
Then we get a little bit of Thomas, near the end of the book, and it's good. However, I don't understand why he will be able to make love to Justine just because she's going to make love to someone else, first? Why wouldn't they have done this long before? Maybe I'm just missing something. I'm not the brightest bulb on the block.:-D. Anyway, I was sort of hoping that Thomas would offer to be the Next Summer Knight in return for being able to make love to Justine.
Well, what's important is that Harry's back and in his body again. I guess I'll have to settle for remaining ignorant about some things.
Anyway, I really enjoyed the book. Jim Butcher is one of my favorite authors. I can't wait a whole year for the next book! :-( Help!
The problem with saying one of the Denerians is responsible for whispering to Dresden is the simple fact nothing they do qualifies as cheating. They exist in balance with the Knights and are free to maim, deceive, kill, and subvert to their black heart's content. Another reason to exclude the Denerians is because something so subtle would not really be practical at that moment and time for them. If they wanted him dead and managed to get that close to him, then why waste the breath? Just bash his head in and be done with it. As for Lash specifically, assuming that she even survived giving up her 'life' for Dresen, what would she gain by getting Dresden to kill himself? The entire purpose of the Shadow of Lasciel is to subvert Dresden so he will take up the coin; killing him would be quite counterproductive.
The truth is that Uriel's care to avoid saying the Fallen's name makes it clear who he is talking about. Think about how in Small Favors, Mab takes great care to refer to the archangels by titles and not by names, even cautioning Dresden about saying Uriel's name. How in Changes, the Erlking warned Dresden about the consequences about saying Mab's name a third time. To put all that it into context, the idiom "speak of the Devil" is more than just a turn of phrase in the Dresdenverse, and quite literal in this moment and time. It was the Prince of Darkness cheating in Small Favors that dragged Uriel into the story, and it seems the Prince of Darkness cheating in Changes dragged Uriel back in again.
Then we get a little bit of Thomas, near the end of the book, and it's good. However, I don't understand why he will be able to make love to Justine just because she's going to make love to someone else, first? Why wouldn't they have done this long before? Maybe I'm just missing something. I'm not the brightest bulb on the block.:-D. Anyway, I was sort of hoping that Thomas would offer to be the Next Summer Knight in return for being able to make love to Justine.
just finished and yes the harry molly kincaid thing was quite interesting, what got me is how squirrelly and sneaky Uriel apparently is
Well, first of all, I think Karrin will feel betrayed. I mean, when they were talking in his appartment in Changes, when he told her what was happening, she put herself in the line for him, she promised she would be there to the end with him to get his daughter back, she compromised. But when the time came, he did not tell her of his suicide plan, that would be the motive she would feel betrayed, him hidding things from her. I think she could actually understand his motives for doing so, though. She knew what was at line.
What he did to the city? I don't know, the city went to hell because the Red Court was killed and yes, also because he was gone, but mostly because of the power vacum. I don't think she would hold it against him. Again, she knew what was in line when she set up to the mission with him.
I can't imagine her reaction to the shooter being Kincaid. I just can't. But mostly, I think she will be angry at Harry, and would probably rule out a relationship in the next couple of books, but I don't think it would be the same as what happened with Susan.
I wonder whether the reason Harry didn't tell Karrin what he had planned was because he thought she'd stop him, or because she'd insist on doing it herself after hearing his reasoning.
Of course we know she'd have slapped him upside the head & told him to stop being an idiot, but Harry wasn't exactly thinking rationally right then.
I'm looking forward to seeing it when Murphy finally finds out that he arranged the whole thing. He'll be in yet another world of hurt.I think that - maybe after another right cross or a gut shot - she will understand.
LML
That seems an unimportant distinction. What do you think Demonreach should call the tree, if not parasite? My woody thrall? ;D
Boy, oh boy. So many other things to talk about. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Let's start with the whisperer.
Uriel's description of the perp is pretty damned clear: Not just an angel, not just one of the Fallen but, "A being who could know a mortal's entire life. Could know his dreams. His fears. His very thoughts. Such a being, so versed in human nature, in mortal patterns of thought, could reliably predict precisely how a given mortal would react to almost anything." (GS page 450)
There's only one such being who has been in the position to know Harry in particular that well. Lasciel's Shadow. To me the conclusion seems painfully clear and inescapable:
Neurovore was right.
Not only was Lash not 100% gone after the end of White Night, she was not 100% redeemed. I don't think it's a coincidence that we were introduced (rather forcefully) in this book to the possibility and consequences of a spiritual being splitting itself into pieces over a deep disagreement, as Bob did with NecroBob.
My hypothesis at this point is that while the majority of the entity known as Lash accepted Harry's gift of a name and a piece of his soul, and gave up her existence––or at least that part of her existence that was directly connected to his brain––to save him from Vitto Malvora, in doing it, she left behind a very small portion of herself that disagreed with the decision. It was too weak to carry any connection to the true Lasciel anymore, thus the loss of the mark and the Hellfire, but just strong enough to hang in there for years, waiting for the right moment to blow its wad in a last ditch attempt to wipe him off the face of the earth. (Whether in retribution for resisting her or to try and prevent him from playing the role for which he is needed in future events hardly matters.)
But that still leaves the question open: How was that cheating? Harry and Lasciel's Shadow spoke many times during her residency. She provided him with Hellfire, showed him tricks for escaping from dangerous situations, and generally interfered in his life a great deal, without any noticeable balancing efforts from the other side. So how is this one sentence different?
The seven word whisper==seven word whisper.
I have two questions.Well,
1) Why did Lashadow appear to be outside of Harry's body in Uriel's flashback?
2) If some of Lashadow survived, why could not some of Lash survive? That would allow Lash to be the one that said "Lies..." and give a nice bit of symmetry.
Not only was Lash not 100% gone after the end of White Night, she was not 100% redeemed. I don't think it's a coincidence that we were introduced (rather forcefully) in this book to the possibility and consequences of a spiritual being splitting itself into pieces over a deep disagreement, as Bob did with NecroBob.
Those were all requested and accepted by Harry. The trick to block out pain, as I recall, Harry had to ask for. And Lasciel didn't translate Etruscan until he said to. The Hellfire's a little trickier. He did explicitly call it up later on, I would need to look back for the first couple of uses.
Well,That's reasonable.
1) She almost always showed up as a separate entity when they were talking (any time it wouldn't be too much of a distraction for him), and the flashback Uriel was showing him is certainly not likely to be precisely representative of what a person standing there at the time would have seen. She's 'perceived' as an outside force, for the sake of being perceived at all.
2) I think you missed some of the point of this bit of my comment:
I think (based more on cryptic comments from Jim than anything in the books to date) that Lash did survive in some form, but she may very well not be present in the same manner, or her voice (if she even has one at this point) might not have the power to properly balance the dark-Lash's comments.
Or maybe Uriel just wanted to do it hands on, because he sort of promised Harry that he would.That's a big maybe. <broken record>And given everything else in this series, it seems too easy.</broken record>
Hmm. So the mystery remains.
You got me the on the whole Justine thing tho.... I think Jim cheated on that one just to give Thomas a booty call.
No, Jim did not cheat. It was all set up several books ago. I do suspect Jim just thought of the consequences, though. I have been wondering why Thomas and Justine did not do something like this ever since White Knight, when Lara was surprised that Harry had not had sex with anyone since Susan, so he was still protected.
But, if you do want power, I'd remind you what Uriel said to Stu in his job offer. Uriel can take the ruins of a spirit and build on it. I'd need to go back to what Uriel said about Lash's biting-of-the-bullet, but what if enough of that survived for Uriel to build on? [Partial </crazytalk> tag here.]
Can we get this to be the motto of the DF Spoilers board?
One question.
Who hired Stevie D, the pistols gunman who almost offs Butters in Changes?
Why do you doubt it? I mean its awfully reasonable :P. I think its his mother, personally, because the amulet that showed Harry the Ways back in Changes held her voice. :P Though its possible that its Lea, since she is Winter and instructed to take care of Harry(or his body).
I have been wondering why Thomas and Justine did not do something like this ever since White Knight, when Lara was surprised that Harry had not had sex with anyone since Susan, so he was still protected.
Justine was really physically and mentally hurt by Thomas' last feeding. It may have taken this long for her to recover fully, and be concerned about Thomas. He was taking care of himself pretty well for a while, until the Skinwalker, and I'm sure it took time for him to recover from that also.
No, Justine was recovered enough by Turn Coat, if not earlier. I'm thinking of the time they met in the nightclub, in particular. And by the beginning of Changes, Thomas was certainly recovered enough from the skinwalker. And there were probably other opportunities. I think Jim just did not think of it until recently.the question is whether whatever mental illness she was suffering through in Grave Peril that was ameliorated by Thomas's feeding was permanently "cured" when she almost died. Then again, I haven't read "Even Hand" and I understand she was in that, so I may have missed this being addressed somewhere.
But that distinction is hardly relevant to the discussion of the parasite. Whatever Demonreach may encompass, the tree living on the island certainly would seem to be a parasite to Demonreach.
Also, a typical tree does not contain everything a human body needs for nourishment. So it would make sense for the nourishment to come from "here" (Demonreach, somewhere in its domain) and only be channeled through the tree into Harry's body. So "here" could provide nourishment (channeled through the tree), the tree (parasite) could circulate the blood, and Mab could provide breath.
the question is whether whatever mental illness she was suffering through in Grave Peril that was ameliorated by Thomas's feeding was permanently "cured" when she almost died.
I think Demonreach would hardly perceive a tree as a parasite: a parasite lives off its host without giving it anything in return. The tree takes energy from sunlight, turns it into sugars, "fixes" nitrogen in the soil, etc. What's more its dead body then nourishes the soil. The tree is much more akin to an organ of Demonreach's than a parasite of it.
Why is that "the question"?because I thought the answer could possibly be 42?
because I thought the answer could possibly be 42?
but the math didn't work out.
I was just wondering aloud if that may have been an additional impetus for Justine to get Thomas to feed on her again. I've been curious for a while now. But yeah, not "THE question"
I think that whatever Demonreach encompasses (sic), the intellectus ascribed to it would seem to be indicative that it has taken the entire island to be its domain. I think that this is further backed up by Demonreach referring to itself as "here" when "providing nourishment" through root-shaped IV's and then referring to a completely different parasite maintaining blood flow.
Some of us have been saying for years now that she just had to willingly make love to someone else and then Thomas could touch her.
(Ok, that was a lie. I'm a Team Murphy member; but I heard that coffin being nailed shut.)there was no coffin. they never found the body.
What she does to him when she finds out he's alive - well, that may be an entirely different story for Jim to share with us.
So, which of the Fallen whispered in Harry's ear in the flashback from Changes? The Fallen looked like a shadow, so maybe Nicodemus?
Also, it was interesting that Mab lied to Harry. Harry always thought that the Fae were incapable of lying, but Uriel confirmed Mab's lie in the first of his seven words.
Was there ever a real chance of a Harry/Molly romance? Even leaving apart the age difference, the sheer inappropriateness of a romance between a wizard and his apprentice, and the Doom of Damocles, you'd think even Harry would know better than to risk being torn limb from limb by the only dark power that even he fears. I refer, of course, to Molly's mother, Charity. And Michael would let her do it.
i think he thought it was the most pragmatic and most practical way to make sure that he wouldn't belong to mab completely. or it was his way of cheating mab out of her new winter knight.
though i'm also inclined to think that mab, who's been around for ages, would probably have considered the possibility that harry would try something to get out of their agreement.
But that means that Harry would not have ordinarily though of killing himself, since he did not try it again once he was no longer in despair, and Mab did not see any specific issues in Harry's mind.He threatened Lea with suicide to get out of the deal with her in GP, didn't he? Mab knew about it, since she bought Harry's debt later.
He threatened Lea with suicide to get out of the deal with her in GP, didn't he? Mab knew about it, since she bought Harry's debt later.
I keep wondering about what Harry's standing with the Council is going to be when he returns. He was officially dead for months, his apprentice is an outlaw (though she's apparently not a top priority for the Wardens) and there's no way the Council doesn't/won't know about the Winter Knight gig. Harry Dresden- Outlaw Sorceror?
The Merlin will want to decapitate Harry and Mollie.
Kinkaid is a master assassin; so, WHY didn't he shoot Harry in the head?
He wouldn't dare. The Merlin may be many things, but he ain't stupid and the Council still needs the Ways through Winter. The Ramps may be gone, but everybody else has decided to take their place and the Council's at war again (can't remember who said it, my bro's got my copy at the moment). The Council doesn't dare do anything to jeopardize their access to the Ways.the Merlin might not actively seek the death of Molly and Harry for political reasons, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't want them dead.
But she didn't KILL them. She manipulated the situation to cause the deaths, but she wasn't the killer. Subtle but important distinction.like I said, she danced along the edges of the law, not that she broke it.
But she didn't KILL them. She manipulated the situation to cause the deaths, but she wasn't the killer. Subtle but important distinction.It is only a violation of the first law if the killings were human. What is human in respect to the first law may sometimes be debatable but the servitors of the fomor do not consider themselves human and maybe the white council will agree with them.
Whats going on with BOB!?He is not gonna tell you :(
Mac. I think this is the first story without Mac, and I honestly missed his wise council and good beer. Admittedly, Harry can't eat/drink but I wonder if Mac would have reacted/sensed/known about Harry's presence, which would have given us some clue about who/what Mac is.
I agree. I miss Mac, but I can understand putting Harry in the pub as a ghost would not have followed well in the story. Still, I'd love to know who/what Mac really is---I keep thinking he's something much more than he appears. Maybe next book.....
Was there ever a real chance of a Harry/Molly romance? Even leaving apart the age difference, the sheer inappropriateness of a romance between a wizard and his apprentice, and the Doom of Damocles, you'd think even Harry would know better than to risk being torn limb from limb by the only dark power that even he fears. I refer, of course, to Molly's mother, Charity. And Michael would let her do it.
I agree. I miss Mac, but I can understand putting Harry in the pub as a ghost would not have followed well in the story. Still, I'd love to know who/what Mac really is---I keep thinking he's something much more than he appears. Maybe next book.....
Re: Mac and his lack of appearance...I just knew, KNEW that when he was looking for sanctuary right before the first dawn broke, he was heading to Mac's pub. I was oh so wrong, of course, but that could have been fun! ;D
One thing that confuses me though. I understand that Harry's body was kept alive and maintained by Mab and Demonreach, but why exactly did his soul go back to it? Did Uriel send him back? or did Mab and Demonreach force it back somehow?
A more difficult question is why Harry's spirit was kept on hold for 6 months. I'm afraid the answer is that the story Jim wanted to tell required that everyone else be 6 months along past Harry's shooting and disappearance. I suppose we could say that Uriel wanted to give Harry some perspective, and Uriel thought that was best accomplished by waiting 6 months. Yeah, that's the ticket.
One thing that confuses me though. I understand that Harry's body was kept alive and maintained by Mab and Demonreach, but why exactly did his soul go back to it? Did Uriel send him back? or did Mab and Demonreach force it back somehow?
EDIT: And freaking Butters. Who the hell would of thought that Butters + Bob = BADASS
i believe at one point it was stated that Uriel was working with Mab to use harry as a pawn. lea being mab's proxy and that silent statue as uriel's
ENOUGH, said that enormous thought voice, the same one from the graveyard, but less mind-annihilating.
Well, according to Harry,
Eternal Silence was Demonreach's proxy. Not Uriel's.
LML
Some random thoughts on Ghost Story and what comes next; some of which may contradict each other.Or she wants to show him off to the whole supernatural world. She did that the first time she got him.
Will Harry be able to get word out to the White Council and his friends that he is alive again? Maybe not right away, perhaps Mab will want to use the new Winter Knight as a secret weapon on her enemies. Perhaps HD will have to carry out a mission or two before he can get word out and go home for a visit.
One would have to wonder, however, why Eternal Silence's mind-voice was apparently more powerful than Demonreach's mind-voice.
Harry died and his spirit left his body. Apparently his spirit was kept on hold for 6 months, then someone decided to give his spirit a chance to go back as a ghost. After that, Uriel gave Harry a choice to return, or to go on to what is next. Harry chose to return, so Uriel sent his spirit back to his body.
That's not correct. Harry's options when standing before the doors were to go back to Jack Murphy's Precinct (and take a job there), or the door of darkness that was What Comes Next. Harry chose What Comes Next. It just so happened that What Came Next for Harry was More Life. As they said, Death is a very gray spectrum of states. He was technically dead in that his spirit was out of his body, but his body was sustained. This says, (To me anyway), that he was only Mostly Dead. That he still had the thread of connection to his body through his soul, and could thus come back, thanks to Mab and Demonreach's efforts. That for all practical purposes he WAS a ghost, but they said several times that he wasn't a normal ghost. My opinion is that due to the Fallen One cheating, this opened up several options for Uriel to employ, that are normally off limits. Such as Harry getting a 2nd chance at life. This makes sense, since the outcome of the Fallen cheating was Harry's death...in order to balance everything...Uriel would be given an option, with the final outcome of Harry being alive again. 7 words for 7 words, a Life for a Death. The Balance is maintained.
Harry wasn't a normal ghost because he was running around in his soul, rather than his spirit, as is normal. That's what he was told, anyway. I'd go look it up, but my copy is being borrowed.
This is true. But what does this tell us? I mean, if he didn't have his spirit, where was it? My guess is still residing in his body.
Soul and spirit are inextricably intertwined according to some philsophies. Difficult to separate them.Yes, they are very hard to distinguish for most cultures and religions. In TDV, no one seems to quite be able to explain them, coming up with analogies like the soul is the soil the spirit is planted in and other such nonsense.
JIM YOU MADE ME CRY YOU JACK***!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like, tears rolling down my face CRY! (yeah, I just finished the book) **takes a big breath** Well that does it. Already knew you were a fantastic author, you just confirmed it you P.I.A. Can't wait to see the next one!!!!!! **finishes sniffling**amen to that.
Yeah, him being "not a normal ghost" and having more life than normal simply relates to the fact that he still maintains some connection to his body that is on life support.
Just a random thought and I didn't see this anywhere so I hope I am not rehashing another's thoughts. How groovy would a Lash v. Lasciel throwdown be! Metaphysical catfight anyone? (Assuming a remnant of a remnant still remains, of course).
I don't think Lash would hold up very well. At all. Fallen angel's "thumb print" given free will vs FALLEN ANGEL. I'm thinking "Oh, I left a smudge on the window... >wipe<".
Good point.....perhaps if Lash and Harry (team Larry?) combine talents....Wily, crafty, snarkiness from Harry with a heavy dose of high octane White Knightiness and years of experience and know how from lash.....
My problem with anything discussing Lash, is that she was a photocopy stored in Harry's brain and those parts were damaged. That means that he would have to regen those parts of his brain in order to bring back Lash. I think the nerves are somewhat able to regenerate (see Harry's hand), but that brain matter is an order of magnitude less likely to regenerate. Wizard Rashid not having both his eyes seems to lend some credence to the conclusion that there are limits to what a wizard can regenerate.
I don't think Lash would hold up very well. At all. Fallen angel's "thumb print" given free will vs FALLEN ANGEL. I'm thinking "Oh, I left a smudge on the window... >wipe<".
I wouldn't be too sure of that. She might have started off as a copy. But a copy still has all (some argument on this) of her memories, and a fallen would only be as strong of the vessel they're wearing.
So what I'm wondering is which of the Fallen actually whispered to him (I'm terribly sorry if this has been covered...) Was it Lasciel being a jerkwad or some random unknown?
Well, drawing the most obvious conclusion from what Jim said at the NYC Q&A,Not necessarily. He just said that she appeared "not under that name." She could have been the parasite.(click to show/hide)
Not even my $0.02 - it's too cracktheory to charge for. :)
First time poster here, long time Dresden-o-phile.
... I personally think that they are setting up Molly as his H.E.E. down the line... (edited for space)
Well, drawing the most obvious conclusion from what Jim said at the NYC Q&A,(click to show/hide)
Not even my $0.02 - it's too cracktheory to charge for. :)
ARGH WHAT ABOUT BOB? Did he take down Nazi Bob? Will Harry get back Bob so he can stop being super dork Bob?
Not necessarily. He just said that she appeared "not under that name." She could have been the parasite.Lash was already running on Harrys life force before White Night. Anything left of her after White Night would run on his life force as well. If lashes story was not over she had to become a parasite after White Night. She may become something else later.
Yeah, then he can go back to dirty old man Bob. Makes you wonder where Bob got that from, considering that with Butters he took after Butters' personality.
Harry got Bob when he was around 16. Hormones and what not...And now he is into food as well. Never got a real chance for that with Harry.
Flames devoured someone who screamed my name.This seems to be possibly Elaine, or Justin.
A pretty girl spread herThis seems to be Aurora.
arms, eyes closed, and fell slowly backward as dozens of fine cuts opened all over her skin. The air
became a fine pink spray.
Will Harry get back Bob so he can stop being super dork Bob?
I don't think so. I think Butters will keep Bob for at least several books. I mean just look what he did with Bob's help in only a few days of consultation and cobbling together of stuff. Before Ghost Story, Butters didn't have a lot to bring to the table in support of Dresden and the others. He had medical training to patch up holes, and investigative knowledge regarding causes of death. That was it really. Well, that and a pair titanium cajones when he needed to. (SUE!!) But really, the Hole Patching job is usually an after-the-fight kind of thing, and the medical knowledge was usually an Act 1 reveal kind of thing. After that though, Butters would usually fade back into the background.
With Bob though, he is participating directly. He is taking his brain (considerable) and applying it to this new area of reality, and coming up with spectacular things in no time. He has become the Magical Q to Harry's James Bond.
It was the Prince of Darkness cheating in Small Favors that dragged Uriel into the story, and it seems the Prince of Darkness cheating in Changes dragged Uriel back in again.
what do you guys think about the ending? Some reason it didn't leave me excited for the next book. I'm glad he's alive and all back as the winter knight but what's the whole ordeal of the demonreach and mab? It barely left room for a suspense moment but saying stuff has to be done for the court. Seems like it could of ended in a more dramatic mind thinking matter then that.
Just two things:
- I loved the fact that his little girl lives with the Carpenters. I had hopes that would happen (I believe I posted that some time ago), but loved to see that happen. Thanks Jim, for that!
- Did others have the same idea that when Fitch was introduced that he would become the boyfriend of Molly in later books? I have no idea why I thought this.
And yes, I had an impression that Fitz could divert Molly's love interest away from Harry and to himself.
I don't remember Fitz and Molly even meeting each other. It seems a stretch.
I thought Fitz was supposed to be late teens? Given, I didn't read his scenes with the full intensity I gave to the rest of the book, so I very well could be off on that. If that's the case, he'd be more or less Molly's age as of Proven Guilty/White Night, not her age as of now.When I said "other character who is her [Molly's] age" I didn't mean to suggest that Fitz is her age, just that he is of an age where there could be a relationship established between these characters.
They didn't. I just remember thinking when I read the book, "How would Molly move on from Harry." And now we have this other character who is her age, has magical talent, is a bad boy but trying to be better. It was more of a thought than an impression though. Just trying to think of how Molly would end her crush on Harry.
All those that are killed or influenced by Denerians do not get a second chance or special treatment by Uriel or other angels.
Eh, if he's of an age to have a relationship with Molls, then so's Dresden. If Fitz is the same age as Molly was in Proven Guilty, then she's currently 7-8 years older than him.
Don't really see anything there, but *ahem* (points at his sig), I'm not the most unbiased person out there... ;D
Sure they do. Sonya himself got a second chance from the Archangel Michael and was entrusted with one of the Swords. The bearers of the Swords (it could be argued that they are the mortal vassals of the Angels), give those touched by the Denarians second chances all the time. That's their entire purpose actually, to try and save them.
And as far as whether or not the demon that whispered in Harry's ear was one of The Fallen, i.e. the Denarians...I think it's at least highly likely. They are the only faction of Hell that we have been introduced to. I mean Harry flat out asked Uriel if he meant one of the Fallen, and while I don't recall Uriel's precise answer...he gave a general answer of affirmative. So, barring some as yet unseen faction of the forces of Hell, my money's on the Denarians, simply because they are a known factor, that has a vested interest in Harry on multiple levels.
Harry says it would have to be something like an angel. ANd Uriel answers, "Yes, a fallen one."
"Someone like an angel," I said quietly.
"Someone like that," he said, showing his teeth briefly.
"That...that shadow. It's an angel?"
"It was once," he said, and his voice was gentle––and infinitely sad. "A long, long time ago."
"One of the Fallen," I breathed.
"Yes. Who knew how to lie to you, Harry."
I'm fairly new here, and a google search brings up nothing relevant that I can see. What does H.E.E. stand for?well i thought happily ever after (thanks go to my disney addicted 2 yo niece), but that is hea. happily ever eternity? dammit now i am curious!
Fitz's only magical ability so far is to listen to ghost. If he is going to be anyone's apprentice, is going to be Mortimer.
Fitz the young Ectomancer!
I unfortunately think it is likely that Harry will end the series with no-one. That's just my opinion, but let's be honest. We love him for it, but Jim is a sadistic mofo when it comes to Harry. I hope he winds up happy and with someone and gets a great ending, but I'm thinking he may wind up dead or alone...
Hey everyone! First time posting here, actually.Welcome, jachreja!
Longtime reader (8 books back or so) first time poster :P.
First off, totally called the Kincaid shooting thing, just ... fit somehow.
How and why? I had no on earthly freaking clue.
I was wondering the entire events of ghost story, as to where the hell Georgia was? Any thoughts?
What happened to Georgia? (since the short story Aftermath)
Turns out you can’t turn the child of two active werewolves over to your average babysitting service.
Harry says it would have to be something like an angel. ANd Uriel answers, "Yes, a fallen one."
Well Jim has stated that Lash was in Ghost Story but just under a different name...Both Lash and Lasciel. And both not mentioned by name.
Both Lash and Lasciel. And both not mentioned by name.
Speculations everywhere but my current guess is Lash as the parasite and Lasciel as the fallen angel telling lies. I do not think Lash qualifies as a fallen angel even before she was changed but she does run on Harrys life energy.
I don’t think it was Kincaid that shot Harry. Kincaid was asked by Harry to “make sure” and he agreed to do that. Kincaid being who he is knows that a body shot might not be good enough. He told Harry in an earlier book how he would kill him if he was going to. I believe a head shot from quite a distance was mentioned. So either it wasn’t Kincaid or Kincaid for reason’s yet unknown purposely botched the job.
Oh, and as an add on, I hope Harry learns the "super-speed" magic Aristedes used.
This is my first post. I just love the books.
I read this thread but I don’t know if this has been discussed elsewhere.
What are Harry’s obligations as Winter Knight when it comes to being consort? Can Mab and Mauve have their way with him whenever they want? Can he refuse? Mauve seemed awfully eager to have his child in summer night. Any chance that Mab could already be carrying his child from when they consummated Harry becoming the Winter Knight?
That's not to say that it's impossible. If Sidhe gestation is far longer than human, she could easily still not be showing, although a very early gamete is extra vulnerable to illness and poor health in the mother. Similarly, if Sidhe have extremely short pregnancies, she might already have given birth. (This possibility seems the most inconsistent and unlikely to me, but I thought I'd throw it in for completeness' sake.)all I would say is time is malleable in the Nevernever - if Mab want to get a pregnancy over and done with, she could have. Heck, Maeve played with time back in Proven Guilty
Ghost Story has to be this year's most anticipated Urban Fantasy novel, particularly after the excellent Changes and the cliffhanger ending it had. The bar had been set quite high and it seems like the consensus is that Ghost Story fell short. How short is where most disagree on.
Ghost Story is the thirteenth installment in The Dresden Files series by Jim Butcher, featuring one of the most awesome characters out there, Harry Dresden. Harry is my Jack Bauer of fiction literature; and we know Jack Bauer is god. After some concerns of whether Borders was going to ship me my pre-ordered book, it finally arrived late last week and spent two nights finishing it up. Regardless of your opinion on the book, it's apparent that it's still quite a page turner.
But once one finishes up reading Ghost Story, it's evident that the book was sub-par in The Dresden Files sequence. Part of the problem is that Butcher looked like he was very conscious of new readers and he was on recap mode on steroids throughout the whole novel, which surely drove fans of the series nuts. In a similar nature, the pacing was out of whack throughout the book due to too many back story and flashback scenes and the already mentioned recaps. But given the nature of ghosts in the book, it makes sense for these types of things to occur, though they still disrupt the energy and momentum of the book. While these were problematic, the book specific plot was not that engaging or interesting, so it created a perfect negative storm.
Those issues aside, I really enjoyed the book. The worst Dresden book to me is still much better than most Urban Fantasy novels I read, so while disappointed by the book not reaching the standards I come to expect of a Dresden novel, it's was still a very good read for me, and it's still one of my favorite Urban Fantasy reads this year.
Ghost Story was by enlarge a very introspective book as such, the wide awesome cast of characters of this universe get the short end of the stick in scene appearances, which will add to the disappointment to many. Still some minor characters stepped up to the stage and will surely become favorites to some. It balances out. Ghost Story is also clearly a new stage setter, a bridge novel, to what one can consider the second act of the series. As such, it felt like the second book of a trilogy, and those always seem to be the toughest to write and are often the weakest of the books.
The Dresden Files has always been to me about having Harry Dresden as a narrator and it was still an enjoyable read, though expect many mixed reactions to the book. Even so, the stage has be set and now I'm very much looking forward to what comes next, Harry is back and it'll be interesting to see how his recent experiences are going to shape his behavior going forward. Next book in the series is apparently titled Cold Days coming out next year. New allies and enemies have been made, questions of trust are about, lots of mysteries still left undiscovered to us the readers, and Harry is here to kick some ass.
I wrote my reaction to Ghost Story the other day, I'll just copy paste it here:
Nice review. I agree with almost all of it, except "by enlarge" ;D
I came searching for people to talk about this book with, as I just finished it last night. I LOVE this book. I love all the Dresden Files, tho CHANGES had me seriously worried for Harry (I felt he was rushing too fast, jumping without looking, and getting all kinds of f-ed up in the process), this book set those worries to rest. I feel like Harry is back to himself (mentally and physically) and I just wanna give him a giant hug! Yay!! :)
Was anyone else bawling when he was not saying goodbye to Karrin and visiting Maggie and Mouse? Holy crap. Tears are running down my face but I could not stop reading. Ah. Totally cathartic though, I really appreciated that, I felt it well done. Thanks Mr. Butcher.
Totally stoked for the next one. I think Mab is so interesting, I cannot wait to see where this goes. Although, it may be good that everyone thinks Harry's dead if he's still gotta be the Winter Knight, even with his self intact. I am very curious to see what happens.
Was anyone else bawling when he was not saying goodbye to Karrin and visiting Maggie and Mouse? Holy crap. Tears are running down my face but I could not stop reading. Ah. Totally cathartic though, I really appreciated that, I felt it well done. Thanks Mr. Butcher.
Ghost Story is also clearly a new stage setter, a bridge novel, to what one can consider the second act of the series. As such, it felt like the second book of a trilogy, and those always seem to be the toughest to write and are often the weakest of the books.
Sup TheWinterEmissary/AmethystOrator...
Don't recall having spoke with you any particular thread, but I recognize you from there sure.
Since you mentioned that you have barely read any UF, I just posted a small list of recommendations that might be of interest to you:
I don't know how much I'll manage to stick around, there's too much discussion here so a bit hard to keep up for me. I'm a fan of smaller communities, but I'll try my best to stick around since I love Dresden.
Totally stoked for the next one. I think Mab is so interesting, I cannot wait to see where this goes. Although, it may be good that everyone thinks Harry's dead if he's still gotta be the Winter Knight, even with his self intact. I am very curious to see what happens.
I wrote my reaction to Ghost Story the other day, I'll just copy paste it here:
I'll all I had mixed feelings with the book, though still a very enjoyable read to me, and quite excited with what's coming next. I liked how he brought Nick from the fist short story. I wonder if we'll see him again at some point, though I doubt it. Maybe a small cameo. With Murphy under Marcone and his vikings, the Harry vs Marcone plot just got that much interesting. Looking forward to Cold Days, and seeing where all our friends will be aligning themselves.
That's because Mab is Molly.
One of the biggest curveballs I anticipate will be how time will flow and if/when Harry makes it back to his old stomping grounds (especially after having to be "rehabilitated" by Mab) how much time will have elapsed.
Wow.
Winter Knight Harry is going to be an Epic Mystic Wrecking Ball Of The Apocalypse, particularly while standing on Demonreach.
Laschiel may not be up on current events, but in terms of magic theory & soulfire in particular, I suspect she'll blow Bob (not like that) out of the water.
Hehe ;)
You are so right. CD will be beyond epic I can't wait! But, what happend to the gradual escalation of power we have seen throughout the books? In Changes in particular his powers went through the roof. I think it is going to be tough to keep going the way Jim is.. I mean how bad ass are the bad guys going to have to be if Haarry keeps going with his power progression?
Arch Angel anyone.
He already can use the laser beam trick when he fight the giant scorpion in changes,
I can understand how you feel, but for me it literally made me like cry out in rage in Panda Express cause I was like "noooo I want to see whats next!" (no joke i finished it like 15minutes after class in Panda). I feel that the whole revelation that he has a CHOICE to do whatever and not even MAB can take that away from him was a really great conclusion. It shows that Harry will still be himself, but be in a greater position of power to act against whoever his enemies may be (preferably the Black Council).the blackstaff and the winter knight tearing through the black council would be NICE. what did you and grampa do today? well.......
Kinda reminds me of a story my dad told me years ago about when he was in college. They had some demonstration on how to knock down a load bearing brick wall (why that was the subject of a demonstration, I have absolutely no clue, since my dad was a dentristry major at the time). Two guys showed their respective ways of knocking it down--guy #1 exerted brute force and smashed his wall down using a sledgehammer in about 10 minutes. The other guy examined his wall for about 5 minutes then knocked out a few bricks, which caused the wall to collapse on itself.
Same result, just that guy #2 used a lot more skill, and without expending the massive amount of energy that the other guy did.
It is more than just strength. There is skill. Most, if not all, Senior Council members would beat Harry in a fight, since they are much more skilled and experienced.
It is more than just strength. There is skill. Most, if not all, Senior Council members would beat Harry in a fight, since they are much more skilled and experienced.Skilled, yes, but skilled at what? Skill and experience are fine, but are the skills you've refined applicable to the task at hand?
Skilled, yes, but skilled at what?
Everything. When you are hundreds of years old, having survived many challenges, you tend to pick up some skills.We've been shown that all wizards have their strengths and weaknesses, not to mention that some things are just a matter of talent or a lack thereof. I stand by the assertion that Harry has talent, training, skill and experience in mayhem that few on the council can match.
As for tactics, Harry is not very good. He gets in a lot of fights when he has not prepared sufficiently (sorely lacking in background knowledge and suitable tricks), and a lot of his successes have been pure luck or getting saved by someone else.Again, I beg to differ. Tactics are how you handle yourself when the rubber hits the road, in the heat of battle. Harry not only excels as a tactician, it's one of the things that's kept him out of a grave up until now.
Tactics are how you handle yourself when the rubber hits the road, in the heat of battle. Harry not only excels as a tactician, it's one of the things that's kept him out of a grave up until now.
We've been shown that all wizards have their strengths and weaknesses, not to mention that some things are just a matter of talent or a lack thereof. I stand by the assertion that Harry has talent, training, skill and experience in mayhem that few on the council can match.
Again, I beg to differ. Tactics are how you handle yourself when the rubber hits the road, in the heat of battle. Harry not only excels as a tactician, it's one of the things that's kept him out of a grave up until now.
Now, Harry the strategist, the long view thinker? Well, I think his record there stinks... um, I mean "speaks"... for itself. :)
What I meant by skill here is skill with magic. Harry looks to be very good in battle magic. But if you really think about it , he is not really good. Very powerful, overrall good in a fight. Yes. but not very skill in a finer sense. Let us compare it to the phisical equivalent like Murphy. Murphy is small, and in terms of strength he is rather weak. but even so, she is one of the best fighter out there. That is what I meant by skill.
True that Harry have face many things stronger than him. But he is not the Mr. Miagi in magic. He is more like a Thug. A thug that have more expirience and trainning, Yes. but a thug all the same.
As long as his raw strength is not too overpowered, there is still many things out there that can give Harry a hard time. And I am one of those people that likes to see Harry get pounded and only escape by the smallest of margin and with a whole lot of injury, pain, complaints, and misery. It is fun!
In all the earlier books he said his talents didnt lie in evocation but instead in finding things and generally things that would help a PI.
He says in several of the books or several times in the same one he is very good at Thaumaturgy. IE making blasting rods, staffs, armored coats, energy rings, shield bracelets and finding things! That is Harry's specialty!
...magical feet.
When he animated the T-rex in dead beat, he told Ramirez that is just hard work, not complicated. Again we can argue that it is just Harry being modest, but no one other then Ramirez compliment it, and Ramirez is just a young wizard with limited amount of magical muscle. He do not have enough expirience to rate that feet and due to his own limited amount of strength, he might think that Harry's feet in animating the T-rex is impressive because it is beyond his own strength.
I'm sure this was brought up before, but can someone please refresh me... did we get to see what happened to Bob following his fight with the Anti-Bob? For the life of me I can't seem to recall any mention of him after Harry escapes the Nevernever.No.. we don't get to see what happens. Which kinda sucked for me, I liked Bob..
No.. we don't get to see what happens. Which kinda sucked for me, I liked Bob..Even worse. When asked Jim said he was not going to tell us. Which probably means that he survived with interesting complications....
If we say he is good with creating enchanted items: armored coat, energy rings etc, Well, in Death mask, when Susan ask him why he do not carry enchanted items like the rope he use to tie Susan, he said he is not good enough. At the same time, we find out in White knight that Ramirez, who approximately the same age as Harry in Death mask, perhaps even younger, can make a shield glove with the principle of entropy which probably is as good as any of Harry shield bracelet before White knight.
The problem about Harry's particular talent is that rarely he got somebody in the book other then himself who rated his skill. And if there is, it is rarely someone with enough credibility.
Harry said he is good with Thaumaturgy but that is just his own opinion and it can be argued that he just think himself good in those area because he is been doing that for years. No particular gifted talent there.
If we say he is good with creating enchanted items: armored coat, energy rings etc, Well, in Death mask, when Susan ask him why he do not carry enchanted items like the rope he use to tie Susan, he said he is not good enough. At the same time, we find out in White knight that Ramirez, who approximately the same age as Harry in Death mask, perhaps even younger, can make a shield glove with the principle of entropy which probably is as good as any of Harry shield bracelet before White knight.
When he animated the T-rex in dead beat, he told Ramirez that is just hard work, not complicated. Again we can argue that it is just Harry being modest, but no one other then Ramirez compliment it, and Ramirez is just a young wizard with limited amount of magical muscle. He do not have enough expirience to rate that feet and due to his own limited amount of strength, he might think that Harry's feet in animating the T-rex is impressive because it is beyond his own strength.
If we say that his massive strength is a skill by itself, well, nothing to be argue there. That is only a matter of oppinion.
Other then Bob's comment in Proven Guilty about Harry having a gift creating things like 'Little Chicago, we do not have anyone with significant level of magical expirience compliment Harry on a particular magical feet.
Presumably right away, but GS did the time skip thing to start, so it might have done it again. Dresden's revival is in the hands of 3 nigh on immortals: Mab, Uriel, and Demonreach. A month or a year is all relative to them.
I keep wondering about what Harry's standing with the Council is going to be when he returns. He was officially dead for months, his apprentice is an outlaw (though she's apparently not a top priority for the Wardens) and there's no way the Council doesn't/won't know about the Winter Knight gig. Harry Dresden- Outlaw Sorceror?
laura_be:
Did you mean the SENIOR Council (seven)? Because there are hundreds of members of the White Council, and the majority of them are probably NOT a match for Harry.
To go on from the quote below and from a few other points, i think we all need to remember that harry is at the beginning of his life as a wizard, and in most cases other wizards consider him to be a child, however that being said, i beleive they also FEAR him - i disagree with the earlier comment that almost all of the white council could defeat him through skill rather than raw power, because as we read the books, harry grows and becomes more than what he was, he created little chicago, and that in itsell according to bob was a massive acheivement for any wizard, he is mostly self taught and he learns most of that in the thick of battle, he is self depricating also so when he talks about how "good" he is, i actually beleive he sells himself short.
he has the leansidhe as a body guard and the white council have had cause to end him more than once and they havent.
his birth apparently is meant to give him power over the outsiders, perhaps the only mortal man that does, so he is valuable.
personally i beleive we dont know nothing yet as to where his main powers lie, but he is a combat wizard through and through, however his skill at making items is rapidly improving.
(furthermore to that note about items he creates, notice that they get better because his old one failed, and he put more thought into the different types of incidents he would likely be subject to ergo, the only thing in his way, his the limits he puts upon his own psyche)
keep in mind that harry is a lonely man, he likes his lonliness like a companion, but that has to breed self consiousness from him
I personally thinks that Harry is a rather lazy wizard. He would not push himself to greater heights of power. Either because he is under-motivated or because he is afraid to have that much power. He only makes significant improvement after: his girlfriend becomes half turn, His house got busted a couple of times, he nearly died several times, being dragoon into joining the warden and when his daughter got captured. Things like that. He could do it if he makes the effort, but he does not seem to be a self motivated guy when it comes to magical achievement.
How about this theory? I think Cowl is Kemmler. After reading GS, especially where Corpsetaker drags Butter's spirit out of his body and takes it over. I think that Kemmler did the same thing with DuMorne at the fight where his death supposedly 'took'. I believe he either switched bodies with DuMorne right before or right after he died, which would explain how one of the wardens all of a sudden turned warlock, as well as how he got Bob - he knew what the skull was to begin with, so he made sure he took it with him.
After dresden killed dumorne/kemmler (haven't figured that part out yet) he simply bided his time until he could come back the way Corpsetaker was attempting to do in GS.
Wow.. really? Not being self motivated is not Harry's tragic flaw!
Harry said, "there are things you can't walk away from. Not if you want to live with yourself afterward." So he gets involved in things he has no business getting involved with. Which usually culminates into him going up against things that should wipe the floor with him, but because of his drive to protect his friends/family he develops more and more power to defeat them.
In no way did I ever say to myself, "Wow he really is a lazy wizard and needs to get more involved." If anything his tragic flaw is that he cares too much and takes on other's problems too quickly. He throws himself at them to save the ones he loves and God have mercy on anything that gets in his way!
Yes he does get invovled because others are in trouble, but no he doesn't just do it for them. He does it because he can not sit idle while others are being trod upon. He does it for himself as much as he does it for others.
He knows that there are prices to pay for his choices and he accepts them, knowing that it will be him that pays the price and not someone else. He has done that over and over again.
You obviously love these books as much as I do or you would not be on this message board, but stop and think before you post tripe like that again.
I LIKE it. Horrifying, but I like it.
If true, I suspect that both Dumorne/Kemmler and HWWB threw their fights and faked their deaths. HWWB was pretty obvious. He fell into some flames. Harry never went looking for a body.
It would not only explain how DuMorne got Bob, but why he wasn't Torn Limb From (mental) Limb the way Harry almost was when Bob accessed his memories associated with Kemmler.
So that begs the question: WHY did HWWB (and Kemmler/DuMorne) throw their fights? What is it that they want Harry At Large for?
I suspect we won't find the answers to that for a few more books.
I was kinda hoping he'd run into a reformed Victor Sells. I even had a poignant and dramatic scene in my head.
Victor: Well if it isn't the man who killed me. I wanted to say thank you for it. I lost myself in the stuff I did and could have hurt my family. You kept them safe though, thank you.
Harry: ... um ... You're welcome?
I'm sure this was brought up before, but can someone please refresh me... did we get to see what happened to Bob following his fight with the Anti-Bob? For the life of me I can't seem to recall any mention of him after Harry escapes the Nevernever.I have a feeling that Harry meets up with Bob in the next book because Mab sends Harry to find him and bring him in. Harry is going to have to try very hard to convince Mab to let him live/go. Harry probably going to have to prove himself to earn a favor like that.
Everyone's seemed to have a proxy Jack = Uriel, Lea = Mab, and Eternal Silence = Demonreach. So who's proxy was Inez? I posit that she represented whoever it was that falsley whispered into Harry's ear (Lucifer in my opinion).
Oh my. gosh. FABULOUS. I love the theories!!! Hmm... well, maybe HWWB enjoys the power of knowing he can really throw Harry for a loop sometime/manipulate him against others in the evil realms to wipe out his opponents. Rather a lame theory if I'm allowed to criticise myself given the fact that he couldn't necessarily TRULY know how Harry would turn out. this also does, however, make me wonder if possibly Kemmler/DuMorne was controlling HWWB and using him to draw out Harry's power and prowess and train him by making him fight. It certainly would fit with K/DM's training methods, and perhaps K/DM was still hoping to turn him at some point (a possibly more valid, albeit outlandish theory)
Was thinking about this the other day. Lea says that she is tempted to end this "charade" (forget what she calls it) and tell Harry he killed himself. Eternal Silence (iirc) is the one who says no you can't tell him (again paraphrasing). Why would he do this? What purpose would it serve? I think it would make more sense if Eternal Silence was the proxy for Uriel here. Since he's running the long con through the whole book. Unless he has clued in Mab, Demonreach and others in on this journey of Harry's soul.
First, I did say that it is what I think personally.
Secondly, I say he is lazy in terms of magical achievement only. I really think he could have put wards on his home at least after a demon trash his apartment in Storm front. But no, he have to wait until he started a war with the vampire first and according to the book he only started to put serius wards there after an attempt have been made for his life. As though the vampire would ignore the wizard who started the war in the first place!
He probably could have make that armored coat earlier, Maybe he would need more time and effort to make it so, but he could probably done it. I mean, only one year have pass since Death mask the last time the coat haven't been spelled. That coat was Susan's last significant gift and he just put those protection after Anna Valmont stole and return it to him.
I do not mean to imply that Harry is uncaring, As you correctly stated above, he is very, very caring. But still. He got Bob for crying out loud. and you want me to believe that he can't do those things before hand?
Ok, so I don't mean to be the blonde dummy here but did we ever find out exactly who the woman was at the end of Changes? Are we assuming it was Mab? I can't seem to be able to find a specific answer (and my talent with the search box ends when I clear the word "Search...") and I didn't want to write a whole new topic if everyone has discussed it somewhere else.
3) And since harry is winter knight and alive does he have to live in the NN or does he have to commute to Chicago?
I don't see why he has to stay in Nevernever and commute. The Summer Knight before Fix stayed in his artist apartment in Chicago, didn't he? But then he doesn't have his old apartment anymore... Hmm... Maybe Mab will pay him a salary (in fairy gold?) and he can maybe afford a penthouse in Chicago!
Teck
Any bets on how many more books before Murphy officially picks up that sword? She obviously needs some shrink-work first, but...
I think McCoy has to have his hands tied by the Council and maybe trying to prevent Molly from being hunted as much. I mean, I'm sure he was royally pissed at whoever killed Harry, but he also knew how upset Harry was over the choices he was forced to make. Maybe he knew that Harry was going to find a way out of Mab's grips, and while he didn't agree with them, he accepted them.
Does anyone else see EB as the bad guy, he is the blackstaff after all he didn't get involved with helping Harry out tell he found out about the bloodline curse affecting him. I mean come on he's totally black council, he's just using the "gray council" to occupy harry and to weed out the good guys from the ones he can use.
He figured that having Harry help with the council's counterattack was more important than saving one child that was probably already dead or turned (from his point of view). Also, couldn't he just hide behind a few Wards in the Nevernever if self-preservation was his goal?
And don't we have a Soulgaze confirming he's a good guy (Also, why would being the Blackstaff make him automatically evil)?
Ah but if the council's attack was so important to him why did he leave it.
if that wouldn't screw up the sanest of people I don't know what would.
If it was me I wouldn't take the chance on the curse working Ortaga's widow was putting it together specifically for him don't you think she would have thought about him doing just that and taken precautions against it.
It really depends on what your definition of "lying" is. The fey can stretch the truth quite extensively.
"You know, wizard, that I may speak no word
that is untrue. Thus is my word given to you."
“I have his oath, ancient one. What he has given is mine by right, and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please.”
“She might lean on you pretty hard. Try to put you into a box you don’t want to be in. But don’t let her. She can’t take away your will. Even if she can make it seem that way.” He sighed again, but there was bedrock in his voice. “That’s the one thing all these dark beings and powers can’t do. Take away your ability to choose. They can kill you. They can make you do things—but they can’t make you choose to do ’em. They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don’t fall for it.”
“I won’t,” I said. I looked up at him and said, “Thank you, Grandfather.”
Will he and his god-mother usurp Mab? Freeing Harry?
How powerful is mouse?
Which Shadow influenced him?
Has Mab bitten off more than she can chew enlisting Harry to be a winter knight?
Jim could have everyone find out between books, but there should be all sorts of very interesting reactions (like the White Council who probably have made him somewhat hero-ish for wiping out the Reds...)
Emilly ... That boat sailed a long time ago. They are definatly friends ONLY.
Lash ... Heeee .... Ewwww! They share the same BRAIN, now thats iky.
Laura?
Lea?
MAB?
I don't think there's a major character named emily in this series.Elaine most probably. And that train....
You say icky, I say potentially kinky considering the whole "she can make you feel anything or look like anyone" angle.Without the hunger the attraction will be less as well. And lust is the only thing she has to offer. Sure she is intelligent and has a sense of humor but not enough to compensate for the rest of her character.
Its Lara, and all he needs is to learn Lea's "put the Hunger to sleep" spell to avoid being
eaten.
Lea is rather unlikely, she does appear to care for him in her own way though.His godmother. That is icky. :)
They're already effectively married, add a few scenes of them talking to each other and learning to understand each other (and possibly have Harry give her a nickname, see theMab? They are already shipped. People who want to ship anybody else must first unhip her.
"Harry has naming powers" theory) and they may become shipable.
OK, Luccio is much older - but they never had a teacher/student relationship, so age can be something mitigated by the fact that Harry has had a great deal of experience. It's not the age thing - it's the relative power in the relationship to one another (not magical power). That's what is creepy about the whole Molly/Harry idea. I know the whole falling in love with the teacher thing seems like a great fantasy, but it becomes a thing where the teacher has more power over the student, which is unhealthy and just ick.Agreed, Sam didn't get Rosie Cotton until after the Big Bang.
I think the hero has to be alone. He doesn't get the girl or peace until he's finished his quest, and until JB finishes his quest, Harry doesn't get the girl. When he does, she has to be worth all the pain and suffering, and the only one in his life who that fits is his daughter. In the end, I don't think it will be romantic love he gets, he might just get familial love, which he craves more anyway.
A hero doesn't get someone warm to curl up with, a hero chooses the hard road of challenge, not comfort. It's sad, but that's what makes his sacrifice noble. He doesn't get the soft, comfortable relationships that can turn to complacency. He saves the world. His love is for the world, for good, for humanity. These are higher ideals and this is a far greater love. That's why we admire a hero. They sacrifice so others don't have to. Their sacrifices make other people's comfort possible.
Im new just started reading some of these post.Am I the only one that thinks kemmler is behind the black council. I just cant figure out whos body he jump into after Harry killed him in Justin Demourns body.and yes i dont think Kemmler was actually Kemmler either.I think he was morgana but thats beside the point
its also mentioned that he changed after.
mabe harry didnt kill him
by morgana i ment morgana lafae theres and kemler keeps getting brought up over and over hes not dead. if you go over old aurthurian is that the right word legends morgana was a necromancer she brought mordred back. or i could just be crazy
theres all these parallel lines drawn between harry and merlin and harry dosnt realy have a nemesis yet.He has enemies but not an actual nemesis.Jim is too much of a comic book fan to not give harry an actual nemesis an arch villain.even if kemmler isnt morgana harry himself said he thought caprio corpus took her whole game plan from her master we havnt seen the last of kemmler and im pretty sure he was demourn but like i said i could be crazy.
Who is Cowl?
What is the Parasite that is spoken of at the end of Ghost Story, as replacing Harry's heart, which was shot with a high power rifle? Are they speaking about the vines/roots inserted into Harry's veins? Or is there something actually replacing Harry's Heart?
Does Harry have repressed memories? Are these why he has such terrible headaches?
Was that Kimmler's Athame?
What evidence is there that Lash is still around, and still inside Harry's head?
Who are the other obviously heavy hitters on the Grey Council?
Consider how many times people have messed with Harry's head or tried to reduce it to mush.That seems insufficient to explain the severity of his headaches, when he heals so quickly and completely that broken bone scars disappear in a couple of years. I think instead that the prominence of Harry's headaches in the books, is Jim's way of telling us there is something going on in Harry's head, and I think it's repressed memories like the memory he recalls of the fight with He who walks behind in Ghost Story.
No, it was Morgan le fay's Athame.The only le fay I remember from the books is Margaret le fay Harry's mother. Where is Morgan le fay mentioned?
WoJ and possibly her acting as the Parasite.So Jim has stated categorically that it was Lash? That seems unlikely, Bob said she was gone, that the soul Harry had given her was no longer in Harry's head didn't he?
Harry and Ebenezar for starters, we've also apparently been introduced to 6 of the people who showed up at Chichen Itza with grey hoods (excluding Harry, Ebenezar and Vadderung).I believe I remember Harry stating that 13 (a coven) showed up, so that leaves 5 we don't know, but of the other 6 that we do know, who are they? Injun Joe was supposed to be sick. Martha Liberty? The Gate Keeper? The young wardens had been captured along with Captain Lucio, only Chandler was still free and in hidding, and none of them would I consider a Heavy Hitter anyway. The presence of Vadderung indicates that not all of them are necessarily from the White Council, but I can't think of anyone else we've been introduced to that can fling heavy magic around as they were, except for faeries and with Winter already there would Summer have shown up. So some of the older stronger wardens that apparently hate Harry? Hans the Toymaker was considered strong enough for the Senior Council maybe him? I'm stumped to think of who is on the Grey Council.
That seems insufficient to explain the severity of his headaches, when he heals so quickly and completely that broken bone scars disappear in a couple of years. I think instead that the prominence of Harry's headaches in the books, is Jim's way of telling us there is something going on in Harry's head, and I think it's repressed memories like the memory he recalls of the fight with He who walks behind in Ghost Story.
The only le fay I remember from the books is Margaret le fay Harry's mother. Where is Morgan le fay mentioned?
So Jim has stated categorically that it was Lash? That seems unlikely, Bob said she was gone, that the soul Harry had given her was no longer in Harry's head didn't he?
I believe I remember Harry stating that 13 (a coven) showed up, so that leaves 5 we don't know
Hans the Toymaker
Ooooh... Here's a thought could the Fallen that whispered to Harry have been a scorned Lasciel?
Ah, I hadn't seen that particular bit being tossed around yet. I've just recently come back to the boards after forcing myself to refrain for a while. Otherwise if I'm here the whole time between books I start getting into nuttier and nuttier theories.
What's wrong with nutty theories? :)Heh, I try to keep from spinning down into Ms Duck level theories. :D
Heh, I try to keep from spinning down into Ms Duck level theories. :D
She has some theories and her theories make sense and rely on some good observations (the convenient timing of a headache to make Harry forget about using Mouse to find Thomas for one). What's wrong with Ms Duck like theories?Oh I don't deny her theories are well thought out and possibly quite insightful and in general I am a big fan of our good Ms Duck. But her theories make my head hurt... Especially ones like Mab/Molly and the million year itch.
You could be spouting random theories with nothing supporting them, then you'ld be a crackpot.
Ooooh... Here's a thought could the Fallen that whispered to Harry have been a scorned Lasciel?
I don't think it's Lasciel per say, but more Lash.
Yes there is a different.
We have confirmation that it was a genuine Fallen Angel, not the shadow of one.Besides. Lash as the whisperer does not make sense.
But the big question with Lasciel is how did she get out of the coin to whammy Harry?
Get a new host maybe? Nicodemus was probably desperate for more backup after Small Favour when it was just him and Dierdre.Lasciel could talk to Harry in death masks until he closed the circle. It could be that she is able to speak to Harry as soon as Nic breaks whatever wards the church had in place.
But IIRC Thorned Namshiel stole the coins for Nic's wife. Nic didn't get diddly, and I don't think Tessa trusts Lasciel enough to release her.
i forget wich book its in but they talk about justin being one of the wardens at kemmlers final stand. its also mentioned that he changed after. mabe harry didnt kill him but he took the bob and im sure justin was kemler triing to rebuild his army. by morgana i ment morgana lafae theres and kemler keeps getting brought up over and over hes not dead. if you go over old aurthurian is that the right word legends morgana was a necromancer she brought mordred back. or i could just be crazy
We know from Luccio that strength in magic is relative to the physical body (She is weaker than she was before, and can no longwr make swords). I think DuMorne was the strongest body available at that moment.
or because he got help from Lea (I think this might have been mentioned in other books that she gave him power in exchange for a favor - I don't have the books handy to look that up).
Anyway, I believe that Cowl is Kemmler, resurrected again.
Has anyone considered that Harry's whole ghost experience was an elaborate hallucination?
I think that is very unlikely.I ask this because I can see Molly coping badly with his disappearance, but not Murphy, she has seen him do the impossible before and escape death.
But I guess we will find out in the next book when he has to run into Murphy or Molly.
I ask this because I can see Molly coping badly with his disappearance, but not Murphy, she has seen him do the impossible before and escape death.
Yes she has but she has never seen him actually die. And she has feelings for him. His death would greatly affect her.The solution I thought JB would go with was that as Harry went into the water the cold preserved him long enough for his body to recover and this was his mind's way of coping. However being kidnapped by Mab and Demonreach works too.
Has anyone considered that Harry's whole ghost experience was an elaborate hallucination?
No, we have Woj's that the stuff we saw actually happened.Well can't argue with that!!
Molly seems to be doing a lot of very-close-to-black-magic stuff. Is she getting, like, totally corrupted?
Well... what's "corrupted" mean? [laughter] Yeah, she's playing around with some nasty stuff and it's only a matter of time before that catches up to her. On the other hand, she's doing things she knew Dresden would've done if he could have done them, so it's all Harry's fault.
Plus, why would Lash want Dresden suicidal?She wouldn't. She'd want him to survive. Which he wouldn't do if he couldn't save Maggie. And he'd have a hard time doing that with his spine broken (for one thing, Chichen Itza probably isn't ADA accessible; way too many stairs).
According to Ghost Story, however, once a practitioner dies, their power is limited to the ability of whatever new body they inhabit, which was why Corpsetaker wanted Mortimer when she switched with Luccio she was still alive. Cowl took DuMorne because he was the stronhest available body.
It would have been easy, too - the Council has only just now given more than cursory attention to defense against mind attacks/possesion.
What the heck are you talking about?
According to Ghost Story, however, once a practitioner dies, their power is limited to the ability of whatever new body they inhabit, which was why Corpsetaker wanted Mortimer when she switched with Luccio she was still alive. Cowl took DuMorne because he was the stronhest available body.
It would have been easy, too - the Council has only just now given more than cursory attention to defense against mind attacks/possesion.
Incorrect, when the ghost of a practitioner takes over a new body it only has the level of magical power that body has, which is why Corpsetaker required more than just the minor talents that she had gathered in her big hood gang. When a live practitioner does a body jump their power comes with them, minus the hardware changes using magic over time has caused. I think this has something to do with still having a soul.
No not quite, Corpsetaker (according to Harry in Dead Beat) had power levels similar to Harry, but she only needed to possess someone of, say, Mort or Molly tier powers to get her full strength back.
And I'm fairly certain that was Corpsetaker's actual spirit, not her ghost.
Wow! This is a long thread! I thought it would be interesting to read all of the theories from the first post but lost the will to live about page 10 - not because it was boring but simply because I couldn't keep up with all the different theories and follow the voluminous amounts of responses etc. Any chance that some of the theories could have their own thread - eg "is Dumorne really Cowl" or "what were teh 7 words Lash said to Harry"? Looks as though it will be a bit of a wait until the next installment (showing as due out in Jan 2013 on Amazon UK!) so I guess we've got a bit of time to discuss it all!
Jim Butcher said that DuMorne is dead. dead dead dead. deeeeaaad!like DED dead! ;D
like DED dead! ;DDeparted? ;D
No one's arguing that DuMorne isn't D-E-D dead. The theory is that when Kemmler went down the last time, he took over DuMorne's body a la Corpsetaker/Butters. This left Dumorne dead, and Kemmler is now known as Cowl.
If Kemmler was acting as Justin, how on earth did he get his ass kicked by 16 year old Harry?We've never actually seen the fight itself. Harry might've caught Justin by surprise or something. Besides, it's 16-year-old Harry we're talking about. He does lots of things that he shouldn't be able to do.
And Cowl is too weak to be Kemmler.:o Harry said that he hit him harder than either Eb or Lea, who are both pretty badass magically speaking. And it's not like Cowl was putting all of his effort into that one spell, either. Did he seem winded after that blast to you? Nope. In fact, he tried to hit him again right afterwards, and then put together a shield on the fly that was powerful enough to stop a car from crushing him. Just how strong do you think Kemmler is!?
We've never actually seen the fight itself. Harry might've caught Justin by surprise or something. Besides, it's 16-year-old Harry we're talking about. He does lots of things that he shouldn't be able to do.
Harry said that he hit him harder than either Eb or Lea, who are both pretty badass magically speaking.
Did he seem winded after that blast to you? Nope.
Just how strong do you think Kemmler is!?
Q: Is Cowl still out of Harry’s league, now that Harry has this additional power?
A: I don’t know. Remember that Harry was outrunning the Ick
Let me get this straight the winter night is shot falls into a ice cold lake a few miles from his sanctum which is where a ley line originates that has a genius loci so strong that it scares some of the white counsel spit less… and not one of his friends goes to see if his body is there? Wow I don’t know how to take that. :o
It's a little odd really that Harry could have killed a council warden in a straight up duel come to think of it. HWCB according to bob went in against Harry at that time to start weaponizing him, maybe DuMorne was continuing the process along, or maybe something else had taken DuMorne the way DuMorne took Elaine.
Not that odd really, Harry probably had a massive power advantage, foci (Justin probably didn't carry his around 24/7) and a lot of anger to back him up, its not unlikely these all combined to give Harry victory over Justin.
Mab’s eyes snapped to Demonreach. “I have his oath, ancient one. What he has given is mine by right, and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please.” “Dammit,” I said tiredly. “Dammit.” And a voice—a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, “Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.”
.
Mab's more speaking the truth as she believes it/sees it/shades it than outright "speaking a word that is not true" in the Robert Jordan Aes Sedai sense. But is it possible Mab's breaking the rules here somehow, and outright lying?This is funny because Robert Jordan probably made the word 'Aes Sedai' from 'Aos Sidhe' (and, yes, I know that 'sidhe' isn't pronounced at all like 'sedai', but if you read it with English phonetics...) He even has a 'Leane Sedai', which may or may not be a coincidence. ;D(click to show/hide)
This is funny because Robert Jordan probably made the word 'Aes Sedai' from 'Aos Sidhe' (and, yes, I know that 'sidhe' isn't pronounced at all like 'sedai', but if you read it with English phonetics...) He even has a 'Leane Sedai', which may or may not be a coincidence. ;DBoth can be provided by Harry ;D
Mab's totally not Black Ajah, though. She doesn't have the free will nor the inclination to 'go against the rules'... unless, of course, she gets some good ol' mortal help and a large dose of batshit crazy, like Aurora.
This is funny because Robert Jordan probably made the word 'Aes Sedai' from 'Aos Sidhe' (and, yes, I know that 'sidhe' isn't pronounced at all like 'sedai', but if you read it with English phonetics...) He even has a 'Leane Sedai', which may or may not be a coincidence. ;D
Mab's totally not Black Ajah, though. She doesn't have the free will nor the inclination to 'go against the rules'... unless, of course, she gets some good ol' mortal help and a large dose of batshit crazy, like Aurora.
Glad someone gets my jokes =)
Another more random question: do we know if Harry still has the photo of his mother and father at the lincoln memorial, or did they burn up with his apartment?
Ummmmm i love u demonreach (thanks for saving harry)
Be sure to thank Mab and the Parasite (most likely Lash) as well!And don't forget to tip your waiter.
Thomas... Justine (and her friend) had things well in hand. Harry had very little to worry about with Thomas. A goodby scene would have been nice but not necessary.And it would've ruined the mood. Thomas would've never forgiven him for it.
Anyone else think that the shadow whispering to harry in the church might have belonged to Nicodemus?
It's a little odd really that Harry could have killed a council warden in a straight up duel come to think of it. HWCB according to bob went in against Harry at that time to start weaponizing him, maybe DuMorne was continuing the process along, or maybe something else had taken DuMorne the way DuMorne took Elaine.
He got the power to defeat Justin from Lea, I believe.
By WoJ all he got from the deal with Lea was a confidence boost.
Question/Query/Idle speculation: In Ghost Story, Molly mentioned kids being taken from the homes at night. Given the brazenness (ch. spelling) of theese attacks, might not these be the first creatures not necessarily bound by threshold limitations? Or would it be better to assume the work of mortal agents or possibly the idea they lived in apartments/rented housing with weak thresholds?You could assume the Formor's mortal flunkies that seem to be everywhere, but thresholds are not 100% able to keep out the big bads. Mostly they act as a metaphysical screen keeping out a certain portion of your supernatural ability. Some creatures, like ghosts, have a hard time keeping themselves together with that handicap, but not everyone gets completely stopped by a threshold. Remember in Storm Front how the frog demon charged into Harry's apartment despite the threshold? Plus, somehow the fetches got into the Carpenter home in PG.
Plus, somehow the fetches got into the Carpenter home in PG.That was because they got in through Molly, who provided them the means because she had created fear in the minds of her friends. It built a bridge, like dreams did for the Nightmare or an invitation from a ghost that considers a place his home would.
Does anyone else see EB as the bad guy, he is the blackstaff after all he didn't get involved with helping Harry out tell he found out about the bloodline curse affecting him. I mean come on he's totally black council, he's just using the "gray council" to occupy harry and to weed out the good guys from the ones he can use.
Mortal women aren't awesome enough? Are too bland?
Murphy and Charity might have something to say about that.
It may be that there is no position of Blackstaff and EB is a warlock operating in secret from the White Council.
First Post: I beleive in this theory myself, has Harry actually discussed the position of the Blackstaff or the Grey Council with ANYONE else on the White Council? From what I can remember, the only person he's ever talked to about it was EB. Since EB isn't above lieing to Harry, I put forth that there is no Grey Council and EB just convinced Harry that he was doing good when in fact he was helping the bad guys.
Also I beleive that Lea is not only his godmother but also his Grandmother with EB.
Mortal women aren't awesome enough? Are too bland?I think bland is the last word I would use to describe Scarlett Johansson. 8) 8)
Murphy and Charity might have something to say about that.
I have my own theory of Harry's lineage. I believe that Harry is a direct descendant of Merlin. Hence the journals being handed down. I'm making a guess that there was a child born to Merlin and Morgan Le Fey and the lineage continues through Ebenezer, Margaret, Harry and Thomas. and Maggie. This would explain how powerful they all have been and the apprehension of the WC regarding the entire family. The Island in Lake Michigan reminds me of Avalon which was also a place of power in the Arthurian legend. Just my 2 cents. ;)
I don't think this is threadworthy, but I had a thought as I was rereading part of GS today. Right before he recalls the scene where he arranges his own death, Harry recalls words that Lea said. I can't quote them right now but essentially it was about how since harry is a ghost he can recall the memory even though Molly took it from him.
My thought is whether or not he will remember the memory in Cold Days, or if he will forget how he wounded his apprentice.
What does everyone think?
Didn't he remember it when he woke up in Mab's lap?
He makes two comments indirectly mentioning his suicide, but he never explicitly tells Mab he arranged his death.Harry did remember the whole thing about the seven words because he was counting Uriels words. Harry will remember everything including his rediscovered memories. This makes sense because the whole exercise was a learning experience according to Uriel, Lea and Demonreach all.
the first quote is of Harry's thoughts.
"I hadn't escaped her. I hadn't escaped what she could make me become.
Oh, God.
And all the people who'd gotten hurt, helping me . . . They'd done it for <i>nothing</i>"(474 US Hardcover GS).
Since he is talking about not having escaped Mab, it is reasonable to think that he remembers his plan. But he could have been relieved about escaping her at the start of GS, since it WAS a convienient side effect of being dead.
the second one is slightly harder to refute, as Harry talks to Mab.
"Guess . . . you're kind of upset with me" (475 US Hardcover GS).
But I think its plausible that he just meant that Mab would be upset at him for coming so close to death.
Right after that Mab talks about how Harry cheated her, although we don't see his reaction to that. It's possible though that Mab is just assuming Harry cheated her without proof, because IIRC Harry never talks to her about it (and Harry said to Molly that Mab would know if he was lying [implying he would have to tell Mab something for her to discern if he is telling the truth]).
Anyway I think that he will remember, mostly because I think he needs to make amends to Molly. But its an interesting idea.
Harry did remember the whole thing about the seven words because he was counting Uriels words. Harry will remember everything including his rediscovered memories. This makes sense because the whole exercise was a learning experience according to Uriel, Lea and Demonreach all.
I know Harry will remember the events of GS, but I think he could forget the memory of arranging his own death specifically. I think this because Molly messed with his head to remove that memory, but as a ghost he was unaffected by the spell and could recall it perfectly (like he could when reminiscing about HWWB). However it seems possible that once he is back in his body Molly's spell will start working again.
He should be able to recall recalling it though.Exactly.
He should be able to recall recalling it though.
Read Ghost Story again for the 3 time, and the book is still to me the worst one of the D-Files. I felt that Jim rushed the book. I won't go into everything I didn't like, but one that I have to voice/txt, How on this green earth does Harry NOT have a interactive goodbye moment with Micheal or his Brother, all he been through with them two and all he does is look on them. That was cheesy and I feel cheated, those two moments could've made this one of the great ones.
Read Ghost Story again for the 3 time, and the book is still to me the worst one of the D-Files. I felt that Jim rushed the book. I won't go into everything I didn't like, but one that I have to voice/txt, How on this green earth does Harry NOT have a interactive goodbye moment with Micheal or his Brother, all he been through with them two and all he does is look on them. That was cheesy and I feel cheated, those two moments could've made this one of the great ones.
No one got an interactive goodbye moment with Harry other than Mouse, because only Mouse could see him. Even Mort couldn't see him once Uriel pulled him out of Molly's mind. (Which I think says something important about Mouse, since he could see Harry, even when a major-league ectomancer couldn't.)Or it tells you something about Uriel.
No one got an interactive goodbye moment with Harry other than Mouse, because only Mouse could see him. Even Mort couldn't see him once Uriel pulled him out of Molly's mind. (Which I think says something important about Mouse, since he could see Harry, even when a major-league ectomancer couldn't.)i wasn't surprised. Mouse cowed Lea, and for all his power in GS, I don't know if Mort shows up on her radar.
Regardless, though, Thomas did get seriously screwed over in Ghost Story. I'd bet that'll be a big issue between him and Harry in the future. He got screwed over in Changes, by not being warned about Harry's suicide arrangement, and he got screwed over even worse in Ghost Story, when Harry didn't visit him or have the chance to drop by and explain everything, or say goodbye. That's the kind of thing that could hurt a close family member's feelings.definitely screwed, but it was also well explained in the story. Thomas wasn't out and about in the world, drowning in his misplaced guilt. Harry was on a deadline, and once he got moving, he didn't have time for sight seeing, and Thomas wouldn't have been able to see him at the end, anyway.
First time poster, got into the series sometime last year.Druss75:Welcome to the Forum. I've been Lurking about for a year or so but don't post too often. Waiting for the new DF book. I haven't read any of the pre-release stuff but I plan on wearing Gortex when I do. It's gonna be a cold day in hell.