Do you think I should include Items Of Power and Sponsored Magic variants?Yes.
This power needs to be another refresh at least possibly three
Displacement [-1]
Description: You are not where you appear to be. A glamour or other optical effect obscures your true location, making it difficult for opponents to properly target you.
Musts: You must have a high concept that would justify this power, such as Cloaked Malk, or Nevernever Mugger.
Skills Affected: Athletics.
Effects:
Missed Me, Missed Me. You gain a +2 bonus to your Athletics for the purpose of defending against attacks. This bonus does not require your attention or concentration: should you be successfully ambushed, this bonus will remain, granting you a minimum Athletics of Fair (+2). You may also use this bonus to any Athletics check to perform a maneuver intended to confound or disorient an opponent. If you take a Full Defense action, this bonus is increased to +4.
Blinking [-1]. When you purchase this upgrade, your power is not an optical effect: you are actually changing positions rapidly during combat, by stepping back and forth between the Nevernever and the real world. In addition to the Missed Me, Missed Me effect, you may set up an Ambush (page 142) as a supplemental action every round. However, anyone who can simultaneously perceive the real world and the Nevernever is immune to this effect.
Here's what I intend to get rid of, and why:
Embodiment Of The Living Tempest (Seems like a whole bunch of powers stapled together.)
I would add this too the get rid of list
Gambler [-1]
Description: You have the ability to manipulate probability in a limited way. But it's far from risk free; in fact, the risk is the reason that it works.
Effect: At any time you may pay any number of fate points to make a bet with the GM. If the GM rejects the bet, you get your fate point(s) back. If he accepts and you win, you get back twice the number of fate points that you paid. Some GMs may allow odds other than double or nothing, but they are in no way obliged to.
Any power that has no in character effect seems a bit stupid, if the gm wants to bet fate points he can do so power or not.
This power needs to be another refresh at least possibly three
Displacement [-1]
Description: You are not where you appear to be. A glamor or other optical effect obscures your true location, making it difficult for opponents to properly target you.
Musts: You must have a high concept that would justify this power, such as Cloaked Malk, or Nevernever Mugger.
Skills Affected: Athletics.
Effects:
Missed Me, Missed Me. You gain a +2 bonus to your Athletics for the purpose of defending against attacks. This bonus does not require your attention or concentration: should you be successfully ambushed, this bonus will remain, granting you a minimum Athletics of Fair (+2). You may also use this bonus to any Athletics check to perform a maneuver intended to confound or disorient an opponent. If you take a Full Defense action, this bonus is increased to +4.
Blinking [-1]. When you purchase this upgrade, your power is not an optical effect: you are actually changing positions rapidly during combat, by stepping back and forth between the Nevernever and the real world. In addition to the Missed Me, Missed Me effect, you may set up an Ambush (page 142) as a supplemental action every round. However, anyone who can simultaneously perceive the real world and the Nevernever is immune to this effect.
I'm not sure it needs to be any more expensive, but I admit it hasn't been playtested yet. This sort of thing is a minor nuisance in the D&D game when it appears, and I find it roughly comparable to Cloak of Shadows. But I also consider it a monster ability, and I wouldn't mind paying more to place it on a creature.
Red Hot Knives (I don't see the point of this. You can do the same thing with a stunt.)
Red Hot Knives: Stunt, as others said. It even is underpowered for a stunt.
Displacement [-1]
Rubs me the wrong way. Basic version is probably slightly overpowered. The upgraded version, especially with it's ambush setup ability is pretty horrible. IMHO, attacking someone who is not expecting an attack vs attacking someone who is already in a fight, but just doesn't anticipate your attack specifically are two different things. Possibly change to a bonus to attack (+1 or +2)? instead of the ambush trapping.
I think that Dangerous Aura, as written, is underpowered if anything. It requires a huge amount of refresh to make it into a real threat. And I like it that way.My main concern with dangerous aura is how it doesn't seem to cost an action to do. Being able to punch everyone in your zone when you make a fists attack is probably only a -1 upgrade. Being able to punch everyone in the face without taking an action is probably exploitable.
What's the problem with Kulan-Do?Probably just that I was tired while reading it, and couldn't actually figure out what it did. Wrapping rules text and 'fluff' together like that can lead to extra confusion. Will take another crack at it later.
My reading of the Hidden Voice is that it defeats language barriers and eavesdropping. My reading of Thought-Mimicking Voice is that it allows social ambushes.My impression was that it set the other guys defense to zero as long as he couldn't beat your deceit roll, which could last a lot longer than a single ambush attack. It it only let you get off a single attack, then it probably wouldn't be that bad.
Minor Abilities
"Noob security systems" (requires IP?... Please) [-1]
If you access the network inside of a building using your "IP?...Please." power, you will be able to see the layout of all the security systems. For the price of a fate point, you can temporarily turn them all off as well.
My counter argument is that I tell PCs they can take whatever powers they want but just to keep in mind that the monsters will scale accordingly.
It allows a character to make an absolutely huge number of Good attacks, but Good attacks are pretty lame so I think that it ought to be balanced-ish.
This method of game balance only works when you have one player, when all PCs have the borken thing, or they all have equal amounts of equally broken things.
And "equal amounts of equally broken things" is same this as 'a balanced power set'
Most characters who go ball out with powers tend to neglect the social or mental side. Heck, my uber powerful group got schooled a few days ago by a sorceress using gravity magic. Suddenly when characters couldn't use athletics to dodge, things got nasty. :)
Hitting people with an out of context attack is way too easy in this game. That's why I don't like the implementation of incite emotion. I also don't like the various resisted with: (some skill other than athletics) attacks sometimes made with evocation. It's like saying "My group thought they were badass until I made them use basket-weaving or die. hur, hur hur." In other implementations of FATE, where, AFAIK, weapon values usually aren't used, an out of context attack is usually just another way of saying, "Do +2 damage." But in DFRPG, where weapon values are such a big deal, it can be saying "Do +8 damage" instead.
Hero/champions is one of the few games I've seen that mostly gets the cost of out of context attack right. They generally cost between 2 and 2.5 times as much as a regular attack.
I also don't like the various resisted with: (some skill other than athletics) attacks sometimes made with evocation.]I also don't like the various resisted with: (some skill other than athletics) attacks sometimes made with evocation.
It's like saying "My group thought they were badass until I made them use basket-weaving or die. hur, hur hur."
Personally, I like the idea of an attack vs. Might or some other such thing.
The execution, though...
It would feel pretty lousy to invest heavily in Athletics before getting gravity-pounded. Maybe once in a while it'd be fun, I guess. But I'd like it to be possible for a character to be legitmately hard to kill, and letting attacks hit any skill takes away from that.
Also, wizards really don't need extra power. But that's another issue.
This is offensive. I'm not sure why my comment brought out the attitude.
The revised list is here. So, we've gotten rid of the stuff that we really didn't need.
...
We may still have to eliminate some powers (Displacement, Focused Mastery, Kulan-Do and Rapid Strike seem to be the most likely to be removed) but I think we've gotten rid of the real deadwood. I think everything on the list right now is at least balance-able, if not balanced.
As for Displacement, I don't believe there ever was a real verdict. Truth is, I still don't really like it. Powers usually shouldn't just add to skills in my opinion, and I try to avoid the introduction of accuracy-boosting powers whenever possible.
Looks good, except that I can't tell how Blink Maneuvering is supposed to work. I don't even know if you can block defence by the RAW (not that it should stop us if you can't).
Step 5 gives me trouble. Suppose an attack has accuracy 3. It's supported by a block of strength 5 against defence. Defender rolls 4. What now? What if he rolls 5 instead?
I don't think that's a good idea at all. Too different from a normal block, and more importantly way too powerful. That's a pretty huge penalty to inflict.
Maybe Blinking could help with bypassing physical blocks and escaping grapples. I doubt that a wrestler or a brick wall matters much to someone who's intangible half the time.
Alright, no further whining. It's a great big screw-you to grapplers, which bugs me not at all. Situational defense powers tend to be like that. (You can get Mythic Toughness against magic for 1 refresh).
Wait, armour?
I thought it was a block.
I liked it as a block. Why'd you change it?
But I either don't agree with or don't understand your second issue. It seems that there are two possible problems here:
1. You're concerned about the setting's consistency.
2. You feel that the existance of this power is unfair to Pure Mortals.
Now, just because something's on this list doesn't mean anyone has to use it. I personally I like the idea of technomancy, so I might give Noob Security Systems a try. While I understand that it's out of place in the default Dresden game, I feel that it'll be useful to enough games that it's worth putting on the list.
Out of curiosity, why all the items in a thread titularly dedicated to powers?
Oh, I see. So Tracing is like Unlimited Blade Works?
That could work.
Conceptual killer sounds like Mr. Teatime, from Terry Pratchett's books.
That's all new to me. I don't actually know much about the series. It's just that the time I spend on TV Tropes makes it hard not to pick up a little bit here and there.
By the way, a Tracing variant could probably also represent owning multiple Items Of Power.
I figure that an upgrade could also let you make guns, grenades, etc.
I figure that an upgrade could also let you make guns, grenades, etc.
Can you have more than one item in existance at a time?
Can you make non-IoP weapons?
I'd also like to allow IoP creation. But I'm not sure how to do it.
To what end? What would be the result?Perhaps a sonic screwdriver? :)
Perhaps a sonic screwdriver? :)Setting 478 - it repairs wire fences!
QUASI-MODULAR ABILITIES
The Catch and Only the Catch (-3)How does this differ from Physical Immunity? Other than the price.
Life for Mortals is not fair, get over it!
Must: 1 Toughness Power
World Don’t Work That Way!: Your Toughness Powers can only be overcome by the Catch and only the Catch. This Power counts as a Toughness Power for determining total cost.
Composite Personality [-2]I'd recommend basing this off of Mimic Abilities's "Mimic Skill" cost.
You are not alone in your mind, you have access to dozens of other minds, memories and skills.
Skill Shuffle.You may shuffle around your skills for a different configuration while changed (using the same number of skill points and following the same rules as during character creation, page 65), so long as any purely physical skill are not given a higher value by the change. (Might, Endurance, Athletics)
People seem to be confused as to why, when I originally wrote up the power, there was the Illiteracy and Rapid Eye Movement sections.
Alright, folks.
I gathered up every power I could find, stuck them into a list, and sorted them by type.
I think that this is the third draft of the list so far. It is 40 pages and 73 kilobytes long.
Dropbox link here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43356063/Custom%20Powers%20Master%20List%20%28V3%29.odt).
Will post a copy to this thread, too.
DISPLACEMENT [-1]
I suppose I could do something like that.
Though I can't actually move to the Resources Board myself. Only a mod can do that.
Anyway, a few powers caught my eye while I was compiling that list. I'm going to take a stab at rewriting them now. And I'm going to ask the original authors for input while I do it.
The powers I have in mind are Displacement, Transcendent Music, and Spiritual Weapon.
Missed Me, Missed Me. Your uncertain location makes it difficult to target you in combat. All attacks against you are subject to a strength 3 block. You may suppress or resume this effect as a free action.
You sure about that?Especially when you roll -4 Athletics in an ambush
Fantastic defences at Feet In The Water are certainly impressive, but not game-breaking.
And Good defences at Submerged are certainly unimpressive, but not useless.
In short, I think that Incite Emotion has too much baggage for Natural Weaponry to consume.
Standard template isn't much good for Sponsored Magic. Here's what I plan to use:Looks good, a comprehensive way to encapsulate the boundaries and benefits of what's probably the most complicated part of magic to define.
NAME [-COST]
Sponsor:
Agenda:
Evocation:
Thaumaturgy:
Evothaum:
Extra Benefits:
How does this look to everyone?
Methods of evo -> durations of evoI would think that is not necessarily the case, as the definition in the sidebar specifically notes the Line of Sight restriction that is imposed, and The Single-exchange, Power/Control casting "Method", but does not mention duration. It does, however, mention that,
"the sets of mechanical effects available to thaumaturgy and evocation are pretty similar, with only a few areas of non-overlap. You'd be right, but for this point: getting a broad range of effects out of evocation is an exercise in creative rationalization. What the power source is offering inthis specific case, then, is a broadening of what you don't have to rationalize."Duration could be considered a part of the range of effects of a spell, not part of the Method of casting.
scene-long durations are already available to evocation as per the recommended treatment of veilsConfusion on my part: I thought the Evocation veil effect was the "Quick Veil", which only lasts one exchange without extra duration shifts.
It's pretty damn powerful. Probably worth 3-4 refresh on its own.
Though Psychomancy evothaum can inflict mental stress anyway. It just won`t have a weapon rating.Do you mean that Evothaum uses the power Shifts as a direct attack only, rather than Declared Power Shifts = Weapon Rating?
The canonicity of mental evocation attacks is controversial, but their power is not. I think.
Evocation: Bibliomantic evocations make use of the Word element. Word evocations generally function by bringing things from the world of words into reality. This can create almost any evocation effect, but it requires access to written material containing the desired effect.
Also note that Soulfire grants exactly 0 'evothaum', whereas most of these homebrew options take its inclusion as a given.
So, you want to make it a reasonable 4-refresh option? Drop everything after Thaumaturgy.
What have I missed?
Random question: can the bibliomancer cast from something that he wrote down? If so that may be a gamebreaker right there.
As a GM, I'd stop that by saying that removing a passage from the book that contains it destroys its power by destroying its context. Thus you need to have the whole, original copy to cast bibliomancy. Furthermore, the power of words is also dependent on their being read and understood and internalized by an audience; the reader is an active part of the world of fiction. Thus works that have never been read before, or that have had a tiny audience (i.e. things your bibliomancer just wrote) don't have the metaphysical heft to sponsor a bibliomancer's sorcery.
It makes bibliomancy a little wordy and requires that both the GM and player know what they are getting into, but it sounds like it could be terribly fun for both of them to play.
And maybe instead of making the spells rote, that is not having to roll for control, just have the GM set the power and effect and have the bibliomancer be unable to change its details. In essence the drawback of a rote spell without the advantage.
This might as well be called 'Everything Thaumaturgy with Evocation's Speed and Methods'.
And let's just go ahead and cost it at 1 refresh. Because that sounds even more balanced, right?
This can create almost any evocation effect
The evocation is still just evocation. It says
which is meant to mean that Thaumaturgy effects are off-limits.
The second sentence of drawbacks seems unnecessarily restrictive.
I see no reason to inherently disallow a character from possessing the independent 'spellcasting' abilities represented by this power, and, for instance, Evocation.
I would recommend instead stating that this power is not subject to the usual combining of normal spellcasting powers with sponsored magic (ex. discount on sponsored magic, adding sponsored magic as an additional 'element', allowing purchase of specialization, etc)
You know, I'm actually not sure a special interaction with Evocation and Thaumaturgy is needed at all, mechanically speaking. But I think that it's important to the fluff somehow. I dunno, ask Pbartender.
Given the special skill usage, a special interaction would seem to be mandatory.
Well, first off I'd say that a better "in canon" name for Super Science would be "Ferromancy", which is what the fey use to refer to human technology.
...
No, I dont think it's common sense at all, there are plenty of books out there that have "magi-tech" and plenty of players who would be interesting in playing such a character. Im not saying to pander to the masses, but if a power is more useful to a larger player-base because it satisfies more of the "empty nooks" in the ruleset which allows for more diverse, interesting characters I'll almost always go for the less restrictive (but balanced) writeup.
I dont see why, in this case, we cant have our cake and eat it too.
So, Pbartender, what sort of interaction would you like Super-Science! to have with other spellcasting powers?
Well, on the flip side there is no such consideration for the possession upgrade to begin with. Any character with access to Possession, PC or NPC, gets the ability to use their hosts powers, stunts, skills etc.
I'm not really sure of much yet, except that spending 3 refresh in order to have an excuse for a Compel is really not worth it. If you take Possession, you should get the mental attacks.
All hunger stress causes you to loose powers, hunger stress in excess of your stress track causes you to experience a "Hunger Take-Out," which would generally send you into a mindless feeding sort of headspace.Yeah, I usually go for Take-out when I'm Hungry....
That really brings in the insanity side nicely. Like it - consider it nicked :) thanksDe nada. The consequences of incurring sponsor debt have always been a bit vague, so it's fun to think of interesting ways to use it.
So...nobody has anything to say?That's fine, moreover, it's appropriate!
I'm going to add a "must be just" requirement to Ma'at Magic's evothaum.
I have little choice but to take silence as approval. So I'm gonna do that...unless someone says something.
What I want to know before I get to reformatting is: how is this not identical to Ritual (Crafting) + 2 Refinements?
RUNE MAGIC [-4]
Description: A long time ago, Odin stabbed himself with a spear and hanged himself from The World Tree as a sacrifice to himself. By doing so, he acquired the power of Rune Magic. Now Odin gives some of that runic power to his Valkyries, making them able to serve him better. These runes can be inscribed on static structures, on smaller plates for the Valkyrie in question to use in the field, or on items themselves, such as weapons and shields.
Sponsor: Rune Magic comes from Odin, greatest of the Aesir and master of runes.
Agenda: The agenda of Odin is not entirely clear, but it definitely includes making preparations for Ragnarok. Users of Rune Magic might be called upon to find new Einherjar for Odin's armies or to gather weapons for the final battle.
Evocation:
Thaumaturgy: Rune Magic allows for the user to use Thaumaturgic rituals to create rune effects, provided the target of the effect is in proximity to the rune. The runes may be always-on (such as with Wards), or single use effects, after which the rune must either recharge or be reforged. Portable runes take up Enchanted Item slots and are treated the same way. Runes inscribed into items are rechargeable Enchanted Items, while runes inscribed into small plates are equivalent to potions and disposable.
Evothaum: Portable runes can be repurposed by an evocator as fuel for a spell, provided the resultant spell is in line with the original design of the rune. As a general guide, an evocator cannot change the element or the type of evocation (block, attack, counterspell, maneuver), but can affect the details and targets (changing it from a single-target attack to a Zone or Spray attack, for instance). The Evocator would not incur the initial mental stress for this spell, as the power, equal to the shifts in the rune's effect, is coming from the rune, but would have to make a control roll and potentially incur backlash or fallout.
Extra Benefits: Because the magic is held in the structure of the rune, a Rune Magic user does not hex technology absent of other spellcasting powers. Additionally, Rune Magic provides a +1 to the complexity of any runic effect.
Are you talking to me or Wyvern?
Wait, nevermind, brainfart. That said, Sanctaphrax, any initial thoughts on my write-up? I'm having trouble deciding how to determine the number of runic slots that should come with the power (though I'm considering suggesting 9, since Odin hung himself from the tree for 9 days, there's the 9 realms, and 9 is just generally an important number in Norse myth).
-Rune Magic allows its user to sacrifice an enchanted item slot when completing a ritual in order to store the ritual for later release.The one thing about this, though, is that there's considerable potential for abuse with this phrasing (like, say, making a 20+ shift ritual killshot, carrying it around, then instakilling just about anything with a flick of the wrist), which is why I thought to just work the portable runes like enchanted items.
A. remain an attack, and B. remain a Fire-based spell.
I don't think that this sounds like a good idea. Too vague and too questionably balanced. And not usable by the primary users of Rune Magic, which is just weird.The main problem with dropping it is it's something shown clearly as an ability of the magic in the story that centers around Gard and her abilities, with the veil rune Harry turns into a disguise. Maybe make it so that only the disposable runes allow for it? That way it's balanced by it being available maybe once or twice, and even if they use a high-powered rune, they have to make the control roll?
Would it be a problem if we were to drop the evothaum completely?
I don't remember that scene...but I suppose that any writeup of Rune Magic ought to make it possible.Okay, I just reread the scene, and it seems that I just plain remembered it wrong. What confused me was Gard pulled out the rune of Routine while she was asking Dresden if he knew illusion magic. But the next scene has Dresden doing his own thaumaturgic ritual to create the image of them as Malks then has Gard snapping the rune to activate it independently of Harry's spell.
Not wanting to play a Norse psychopomp?
Wizards might, on balance, be stronger than Werewolves. But it's hardly clear-cut...<snip>This is something we differ on...but no need to argue it out again. Just pointing out that opinions differ on relative power levels.
Wizards might, on balance, be stronger than Werewolves. But it's hardly clear-cut, and werewolves do have significant advantages.Well, like I said, I'm alright with 5, so if it's that big a deal, go ahead and write it that way.
So playing a werewolf is justifiable from a power perspective. Playing a Focused Practitioner Crafter when 6-focus Rune Magic is available isn't.
Having Odin mess with you is a Compel, and therefore profitable for you. The weaknesses of Sponsored Magic have to be something else in order for them to actually be weaknesses.
The incoherent concepts show up when the Wizard realizes that he'd be a lot better off with Wings and Supernatural Toughness with a +3 Catch both linked to a Feeding Dependency. Now, a great roleplayer might be able to make that work seamlessly. But in most people's hands there will be some twisting involved.
PS: Your comment about cherry picking actually offended me and in the interests of politeness I won't reply to it.Then I apologize. I myself was a little offended by being told that something I said was "profoundly awful" and enabling to powergamer munchkins. For what it's worth, I didn't mean that you, specifically, did that, I just wanted to point out that some groups (or at least, the ones I've been part of) give equal or more weight to the narrative aspects than mechanical benefits.
PPS: What are you talking about when you say "standard Sponsorship benefits"?All the Sponsored Magics listed in Your Story mention standard sponsor benefits in their descriptions, linking to YS 288. Most of which is probably already covered by the features we've put into Rune Magic, admittedly, but when I typed it I was mostly thinking of the whole 'free invoke for debt' bit.
PPPS: Even if we were to accept your utterly wrongheaded idea that the system should make Sponsored Magic strictly better than normal magic, making something better than Crafting would still be really dumb. Trust me, Crafting is really freaking strong.Fair enough. I object to it being called "utterly wrongheaded," however. As UmbraLux points out, we have difference of opinion on relative power levels. I respect that you have a much firmer grasp of the rules than I do, which is why I'm participating in these discussions--I want and value your feedback. But you could lighten up on the language just a little bit.
-I'm sorry if I insulted you. I intended nothing of the sort. My policy for these things is to be polite to people, but merciless to ideas.Fair enough. I've learned it's hard to distinguish between calling someone's ideas dumb and calling the person themselves dumb, so no hard feelings.
-My criticism of your ideas does not imply any criticism of you personally.
-While wizards are almost always stronger than werewolves, you can't deny that there is an almost there. The almost is important and must be preserved. Werewolves actually have the edge over wizards in social stuff and they have a couple of tricks that wizards have trouble duplicating.While I agree that it comes down on an individual basis, I'd say that a basic wizard optimized for combat is going to beat a basic werewolf optimized for combat pretty handily. ("basic" here meaning straight up template).
-All Sponsored Magics are supposed to allow debt-taking. I dunno, maybe I should make that clearer.It looks good to me. Functional in the way the books imply, and I wouldn't have to change too much of what my Valkyrie was already able to do with the previous version.
-Are there any problems left with Rune Magic? Or can we call it done?
-One thing I see a lot that really bugs me is a presumption that all real roleplayers ignore mechanics in favour of narrative. That presumption is often used to justify mechanics that really aren't fun for people who care about optimization. Which is just dumping on a fraction of the playerbase for no real reason.Yeah, I didn't want to start up a "you're not a true gamer IF..." argument. From what I've seen of your posts, it seemed to me that you speak a lot about the mechanics for these things without much mention of the narrative (you see compels purely as a bonus, since you get fate points, I see compels as having something of a penalty, because it complicates the character's life and choices, for instance, hence my comments that having Odin looking over your shoulder might be a reason not to play with Rune Magic).
"Finally, Rune Magic provides five focus slots instead of the regular four." If the character has Thaumaturgy does that effect how many slots they get?I would guess three, since if you already have Thaumaturgy, you're also getting the power at a discount.
Can a user still craft normal enchanted items? The defensive shield on Gard's battleaxe in Even Hand seemed to be rune-themed but better suited to being an enchanted item like Harry's coat rather than a collection of single use potion/runes.Yes. Or at least, that was my intention.
I don't really see the Erlking as Autumn-associated. Is the hunt really such a big part of fall?Yes, actually. Hunting lets animals survive from summer to winter. If there's too many animals of a given herd during winter, food will be scarce individually; by hunting and thinning the herd, proportionally there's more food, which helps ensure that the species continues to thrive.
Yes, actually. Hunting lets animals survive from summer to winter. If there's too many animals of a given herd during winter, food will be scarce individually; by hunting and thinning the herd, proportionally there's more food, which helps ensure that the species continues to thrive.
So yes, in the grand natural scheme of things, the autumn hunting season is vital.
Agreed totally. Hunting and Autumn go hand in hand.Indeed, didn't the Wild Hunt happen on/near Halloween in Dead Beat?
Then I'll write up some Self-Sponsored Magics.I came up with this! /feels special ;D
The Item of Power Master List thread is probably the best place for that. It's on the Resources board.Will do!
And I have no idea who originally came up with the self-sponsored magic writeup on the list. Might have been you, might have been someone else.I could probably find where I posted it, but it doesn't really matter, I was just being silly.
Any comments on the powers? Even something lame like "Super awesome!" or "These are the worst powers ever!" is useful.I haven't gone through all of them, but some, like the Telekinesis/Telepathy powers and the Anti-Faith powers, just really do not seem to fit the setting at all, and thus I am opposed to them on that principle.
I haven't gone through all of them, but some, like the Telekinesis/Telepathy powers and the Anti-Faith powers, just really do not seem to fit the setting at all, and thus I am opposed to them on that principle.
That said, I feel that they should be included anyway, as well the other powers that don't fit the setting, in case someone just wants to use the system for their own game. (I remember seeing a Jedi template being thrown around once or twice, for example)
Agenda: As self-sponsored magic, this power lacks an agenda.Have you considered co-opting an idea from Unknown Armies and requiring some set behavior to pay off 'sponsor' debt? Without something, I don't see how debt can / will work for these.
Here's my plan:That makes a ton of sense to me. Reminds me of the justification given for the -0 cost of Wizard's Constitution, actually.
1. Take Estranged out of Undying. I don't think that limited immortality is worth Refresh. Here's why:
-You might be able to do it with nothing more than Recovery. Uber-Ghouls from Our World get Living Dead-level immortality free with their Recovery.
-Anyone who really wants to can still kill you. If you get cremated, that's it that's all.
-Character death just doesn't come up that often.
-And when it does, you might well be able to get out of it by spending a Fate Point on a Declaration or a Compel.
So I think we ought to offer it as a -0 Power.
PACK INSTINCTS [-1]
Alright, now for Blood Magic.
Making it optional presents some issues, so I made it mandatory. Which makes it more of a disadvantage than an advantage for most characters. So I dropped the price to 0.
Saw no need for the special consequence interaction, so I got rid of it.
I kinda regret making this not work with Size powers, but this would be kinda silly with Unthinkable Size.
BLOOD MAGIC [-0]
Description: Your magic comes from the energy of your body, rather than from the energy of your mind.
Musts: You must possess some kind of spellcasting ability in order to take this power.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline, Lore
Effects:
Blood Magic. If you would take a mental stress hit to power a spell or an enchanted item, you take an equal physical stress hit instead. This physical stress automatically satisfies all Catches and ignores all armour. Furthermore, it bypasses extra stress boxes from Size powers.
Any objections?
Um, yeah. I meant that you should suggest some way to boost them.
And yes, they should stand on their own merits. But they also shouldn't be super good when combined with spellcasting. Maybe I should make some level of Evocation a requirement, that'd make them less trap-like.
the powers are only worthwhile in conjunction with spellcasting
They're basically stunts. +2 Conviction buys you an extra mental box, after all. What makes these powers is their ability to violate the cap on evocations per scene. Stunts bump up against a limit of 4 boxes, these do not.They do? I've missed that limitation, where is it stated?
I think that once you start experiencing the diminishing returns of Refinement in a big way, these powers will become quite worthwhile.Yeah, extra (and more powerful) spells are always nice.
But they are a bit underwhelming at normal PC levels. Any suggestions on improving them?Have you considered adding a situational bonus? Perhaps something like "...also gains a +1 (or +2/+3) to Conviction based blocks due to the additional mental fortitude." Basically only helps in defensive mental combat. Though the +3 may be a bit much. Might be better off with three different +1 bonuses.
Wrong thread, but I do like the idea.Yes, that's the idea.
Not entirely clear on how the Extra Benefit works...are you trying to say that you can cast Evocations through the window as long as the Evocation has less than half the power of the ritual?
If you have wizard friends, can they also cast through the window?I hadn't considered that, but no. I think it would be too powerful that way.
No idea if that's balanced or not, but it is pretty cool.No, unfortunately. I had read a few theories about her, and her Our World writeup leans heavily towards Divination & the Invisible (Ectomancy, Spirit). But no, it hasn't been canonically verified.
PS: Is that bit about Martha Liberty canon?
Stunts generally work by boosting skills, and skills cap out at 4 boxes.Eh...breaking that down shows the obvious fallacy:
Please, no formal logic. I got enough of that during my classes this semester, and now that the year is ending I don't want any more.I'll make you a deal, avoid using fallacious arguments and I won't call them out. ;)
Pretty much all conversational arguments are fallacious when put into formal terms unless you're very generous with implied premises.I disagree. But it surprises me to see the statement requesting no formal logic and this...
I quite like logic, but numbered premises and named fallacies are only for situations whereLogic is just structure - building blocks for reasoning. It's not something special to be saved up. ;)
a) the issue is very important (this includes all math)
or
b) normal conversation has created an incomprehensible mess.
I think I explained my position pretty well earlier. Do you have an issue with it?Are you referring to your argument for stunts not being allowed to grant stress over four boxes? If so, yes. As pointed out previously, it's a fallacious argument.
You don't need mathematical rigour for a forum conversation. You just need a bit of backup for your points.Logic is the "backup" - the structure of the argument. If you don't have it, you don't have a reasonable argument. You're left with editorial comments, opinions, fallacies, and other unsupported statements. Logic shows your support...or lack thereof.
Anyway, you never explained what the actual problem with my opinion is. So...please do that.I did. Look back at the fallacy. Whether your conclusion is correct or incorrect, your reasoning was fallacious.
Interjecting a possible True Faith power (For those of Evil Bent)
A Pox on Both Your Houses [–1]Description: Your faith in evil is such that even the protection of a threshold withers under your glower.
Skills Affected: Conviction.
Effects:
A Pox on Both Your Houses. By your very presence in or outside of a place, you may attempt to decrease the strength of its threshold — assuming your abilities aren’t already dampened too low by a threshold for this power to work. If your Conviction (After any Threshold Dampening) is higher than the Natural Threshold Rating of a particular place (i.e. before any characters’ Bless This House are added in), You may make a Conviction roll, lowering the place’s Natural Threshold Rating by the number of shifts you roll above the Threshold Rating (To a minimum of 1). Multiple individuals who have this power can stack the effects, making a coven of those Faithful to Demons or the Unholy a force to be reckoned with. And woe to anyone who is so foolish as to invite one of them in.
I'd just have it automatically decrease any threshold by two - (inversely) like Bless This House, under the same exact circumstances.I'd thought about that, but it seemed too passive for that kind of character.
I'd thought about that, but it seemed too passive for that kind of character.
I'd thought about that, but it seemed too passive for that kind of character.
Sanctaphrax's idea is a good one if you do want to keep the threshold reduction. It also points out just how powerful an effect you're talking about. It would take a ten shift attack to reduce a strength eight threshold by two...and the power as written does that automatically and possibly repeatedly.
Edit: One method of implementing Santaphrax's suggestion might be allowing use of Conviction to attack the ward.
Unfortunately, the rules for attacking thresholds are so vague that it's almost impossible to write powers using them.
We don't know who can attack thresholds or what kind of thresholds they can attack or what skill they use or whether they can use weapons. There's a mention of artificial thresholds, whatever those are.
We know that thresholds have one stress box per level. We also know that the strength of the threshold drops as it takes stress hits.
But we don't know how much they drop or in what way. Or whether thresholds get defence rolls.
And we don't know what stops someone from attacking any given threshold until it goes down. Enough attacks will drop almost anything, after all. Which makes me think, roughly how long does attacking a threshold take? A second? Five minutes? An hour?
Obviously, this is all a pain in the neck when writing a power for general consumption.
PS: Just out of curiosity, why did you post to this thread rather then to the custom powers thread on the Resources board?
PS: Just out of curiosity, why did you post to this thread rather then to the custom powers thread on the Resources board?
I'd extend the +1 bonus to empathy (or possibly now discipline) defense against deception attacks/maneuvers, as I'm having a hard time imagining how being able to read the thoughts of someone lying to you would fail to give you some small advantage in spotting that lie.
Still no clearer on the speed of use.
Pain (assuming physical as opposed to emotional) seems an inappropriate symptom of mental stress.
Compulsive upgrade:
not all social take-outs would seem appropriate for this power, and I'm not even sure this clause is even needed
final clauses are problematic - currently implies that attacks which successfully force consequences are 'unsuccessful'; also runs into problems re: other sources of mental stress/consequences (there will always be a single attack that takes a target out), and how consequences that enforce temporary compulsions can function if they are 'obvious' to the
Wall of Shadows [-1]. Your shadows have become so dense, so impenetrable that creatures without the cloak of shadows ability are almost utterly incapable of seeing past them. You may use your Shadow Manipulation to create a defensive block opposed by alertness.This is not how blocks work. Blocks do not get to specify what opposes them. Blocks specify what they oppose (and all else is unaffected by them).
Reach Into the Well. You may invoke one spellcasting related aspect for the cost of two hunger stress without paying a fate point.This needs clarification. To what end can an aspect be invoked in this way (not all spellcasting-related-aspects will have spellcasting as their only viable purpose for invoking), and how frequently (once per action / once per action per aspect / once per scene?)
I think I'm gonna ditch everything from Shadow Manipulation except the maneuvers and blocks. Your suggestion for the blocks sounds good, so I'll do that.In that case, I'd also recommend an upgrade to allow attacks.
As for Hunger Magic, I really have no idea how it's supposed to work. Especially since the way that Feeding Dependency works is so opaque.It seems to be a relatively simple stress-hit-for-roll-bonus power, but with a minimum increment of two and a limit related to available aspects (the degree of that limitation depending on the answers to my previous questions regarding frequency of use)
Any particular issue with Mindless?Most a matter of the scope of effects that could be reasonably included combined with the definitions of skill trappings 'requiring thought'.
In that case, I'd also recommend an upgrade to allow attacks.
It seems to be a relatively simple stress-hit-for-roll-bonus power, but with a minimum increment of two and a limit related to available aspects (the degree of that limitation depending on the answers to my previous questions regarding frequency of use)
Most a matter of the scope of effects that could be reasonably included combined with the definitions of skill trappings 'requiring thought'.
The vast majority of skill trappings used by thinking beings are going to be thought about by those beings, but most of those could also theoretically be carried out by unthinking beings as well, and as such clearly do not require though (if something requires thought, it cannot be accomplished without thought; if something can be accomplished without thought, it cannot require thought). Depending on how strictly that clause were to be interpreted, the power could be worth a substantial bonus to refresh, even with the blanket immunities.
I'd rather just tell people to buy Long Reach or Telekinesis or Channelling.Where are the most recent versions of those powers (aside from Channelling, of course)?
not notably broken(Potentially) Preventing a character from benefiting from the vast majority of skill trappings, regardless of skill rating in exchange merely for an immunity to mental stress (the social stress clause simply limits the flavour of inflicted consequences and Taken-Out results, it does not prevent them), is 'not notably broken'?
Swarm Body could use a language cleanup, but otherwise appears to be substantially improved.
Replace ', reduce that...' with ', you take only a single point of stress.'
Re: Shadow Manipulation
If that's the direction you'd be taking for Shadow Manipulation, I'd likely just call the whole thing a refluffing.
(assuming this (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25794.msg1341501/topicseen.html#msg1341501) is the most recent version of Long Reach) Add some refluffed form of Glamours to Long Reach to represent the ability to produce blocks against perception.
(assuming this (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25794.msg1282402/topicseen.html#msg1282402) is the most recent version of Telekinesis) Add a perception block upgrade, or replace the current physical block upgrade with a perception block upgrade as appropriate to the envisioned theoretical capabilities of the power.
Re: Mindless
Characters who 'can't handle' having the vast majority of skill trappings made unavailable? I'm having trouble conceiving of a character who COULD handle that restriction.
You could try to compile a list of banned trappings, but I doubt you'd be able to do so without running face-first into paradox (especially with the presence of the 'advanced programming' upgrade: if it's possible to take the advanced programming upgrade, then the trapping does not, in fact, require thought, and the advanced programming upgrade is not necessary), no-true-scottsman, your own arbitrary definitions, etc..
Frankly, I don't think banning trappings in that way can ever really work reliably in this system. I'd leave it as compel fodder.
Sue the zombie dinosaur comes to mind. Like the note says, the power is mostly unsuitable for player characters. But it's good for zombies and golems and inanimate objects being modelled as creatures.I don't have difficulty coming up with characters who could conceivable have a power to represent their 'mindlessness', what I have difficulty with is conceiving of a character incapable of executing any trapping of a skill that the GM concludes 'requires thought'. The problem being that that variable is wholly undefined. From a player's point of view, then, until it has been defined, or at least refined, it must be assumed to be as punitive as it could possibly be.
What if the bans were replaced with big penalties? Would that be workable?I doubt it, but if you write something up, maybe you'll prove me wrong.
See, I don't really want to make having no brain super expensive. So I need to balance out the mental invincibility somehow. And I don't like the idea of having to find an in-game justification for when Sue refuses the "you can't do occult research" Compel.Well, for starters, I'd ask the player how they think they're going to justify having points in a research skill in the first place, and then wait to be impressed. I'd do that during character creation. Because Sue does not seem to be the Brains-y type.
These problems can solve each other. Sure, the Mindless Power will be unsuitable for PCs. But nobody (that I've ever heard of) wants to play a character without a brain anyway.As I believe you've pointed out yourself in the past (or it might have been someone else and I'm confused), simply marking a power available only to NPCs does not make it balanced. Rather, it demonstrates just how UNbalanced the power actually is.
Oh, and the Superior Programming thing doesn't present any problem that I can see. It lets you do something that requires thought without thought. Doing the impossible is standard for Powers, right?If you don't think a paradox (something that, by its own definition, can't happen, rather than 'magic' which merely defies conventional understanding) is a problem, how about a simple costing conundrum?
I don't have difficulty coming up with characters who could conceivable have a power to represent their 'mindlessness', what I have difficulty with is conceiving of a character incapable of executing any trapping of a skill that the GM concludes 'requires thought'. The problem being that that variable is wholly undefined. From a player's point of view, then, until it has been defined, or at least refined, it must be assumed to be as punitive as it could possibly be.
I cannot conceive of a character that could function should the GM, on a whim, decide that using Fists to attack requires thought, or that using Athletics to overcome physical obstacles to movement requires thought, or that using Investigation to locate the source of a scent requires thought. All of those things, for humans (which, I'm pretty sure are the go-to example of 'thinking beings' these days), require thought, even for highly trained experts, to some minimal degree.
I have difficulty conceiving of a functional character that cannot perform the most basic of tasks.
Well, for starters, I'd ask the player how they think they're going to justify having points in a research skill in the first place, and then wait to be impressed. I'd do that during character creation. Because Sue does not seem to be the Brains-y type.
After the compel was in play, though you'd deal with it in the same way that you'd deal with a BCV refusing a 'the sun is rising' compel. Find whatever flimsy excuse you need for that situation simply not to inconvenience the character.
As I believe you've pointed out yourself in the past (or it might have been someone else and I'm confused), simply marking a power available only to NPCs does not make it balanced. Rather, it demonstrates just how UNbalanced the power actually is.
If you don't think a paradox (something that, by its own definition, can't happen, rather than 'magic' which merely defies conventional understanding) is a problem, how about a simple costing conundrum?
How many trappings do you imagine could possibly be barred by Mindless? How much refresh would it cost to gain immunity to mental stress? How much refresh would it cost to overcome the drawbacks of Mindless, a power which offers no benefit beyond mental stress immunity, but includes a significant drawback (something generally represented as affording a rebate)
But this power isn't overpowered or underpowered, as I understand it. The problem is that it's overly loosely defined and might be totally non-functional.As I read it, it's no longer a matter of over-/under-powered. It's just plain broken.
It's not compatible with any concept that I'd expect anyone to play, so it probably won't see any PC use. But it should still be costed so that it'd be worth it but not too worth it for a PC.Ideally, all powers should be costed to be 'worth it but not too worth it' for PC and NPC alike.
The social benefits of Mindless are not meaningless, but they are hard to put a price on.The Social benefits of Mindless do two things:
If you start buying back every trapping you lost, you'll soon spend more than you would have just buying the Power without drawbacks. That's because the drawbacks of the power are costed under the assumption that they'll be unimportant to your character, while the benefits are costed under the assumption that they'll be central.
A parallel example would be a Power giving +2 to X and -2 to Y, where X and Y are roughly equally important in a vacuum. It wouldn't be free, obviously. Because I'm not going to take it unless X is more important than Y to me. And if I buy something giving +2 to Y to balance out the drawback, it should totally cost more than just buying +2 to X.
Ideally, all powers should be costed to be 'worth it but not too worth it' for PC and NPC alike.
The Social benefits of Mindless do two things:
A) limit the nature of consequences taken from social stress - this is not a benefit worth refresh, particularly given the fact that the player of the victim of an attack chooses the consequence anyway
B) limit the nature of Taken-Out results (including Concesssions) resulting from social stress - this is not a benefit worth refresh, as it in no way reduces the severity of the result, only its narrative form
Each of these 'benefits' could plausibly be deduced from an application of the Aspect associated with the Mindless power (High Concept, if nothing else) to the 'reasonableness test' to which Consequences and Taken-Out results are subject.
It's not that they're difficult to put a price on, it's that they are not justified in having a price at all.
It makes perfect sense. In a general sense, I wholeheartedly endorse it.
Here, however, it fails utterly. Mostly, again, because of the vague, over-broad reach of the penalty.
I expect to have characters spend more on a bonus of a given magnitude than they'd see back from an equal penalty, but this much more? Your character literally might not be able to get out of the bed in the morning, let alone do anything meaningful that it has perfectly suitable stats for...more? All just to buy off 'your jedi mind tricks don't work on me'?
the Skills Affected line of No Salvation is wrong. Copy-pasted from Mindless?
Purely instinctual creatures are quite capable of performing many of the trappings listed as banned, most particularly the Survival trappings. I'm pretty sure multiple instances of Superior Instincts should not be a default upgrade simply to represent the capabilities of insect-level 'non-intelligence'.
Beyond that, simply 'programming' an entity to store and retrieve information (meaning any and all of the 'knowledge' trappings) on command is neither particularly complex nor impressive when one is already capable of programming it to reliably distinguish friend from foe, navigate complex terrain, or just plain walk without falling over.
These problems would be what I believe I described earlier as 'your own arbitrary definitions' (or something to that effect).
As for the benefits of this power 'no effect on your actions' is an inappropriate limitation. A social consequence or taken-out result might mean that a large crowd stands in your path, preventing you from achieving whatever your goal might be without first dealing with the crowd. This has an 'effect on your actions', and would thus be banned by this power, but is entirely in keeping with the concept.
I'm open to the possibility that my biases might be screwing this up. What changes would you suggest?I suggested what I honestly believe to be the best solution earlier: leave it to compels.
Bear in mind that animals, while dumb, are not Mindless. You can social-fu them with Survival and control them with Domination.I'm not talking about animals in the sense of mammals, birds, or even fish, here. I'm talking about insects, spiders, etc. I'm talking about things with brains that most people would barely recognize as such. Things with less computing power in their network of neurons than you likely have in whatever PC you're using to access the internet.
For a computer, retrieving info isn't hard. But zombies and golems and super-sized microbes and other such things, who are the typical users of Mindless, are totally incapable of such actions.A standard computer is definitely Mindless. A computer doesn't need to be notably 'complex' or 'impressive' to be able to store and retrieve data. The exclusion of an entity controlled by a computer among your list of 'typical users' is thus a prime example of those arbitrary definitions.
Maybe I should group trappings together so that they can be purchased together for a discount with Superior Programming. That'd let robots be made at reasonable costs.
A Mindless creature can still gather sticks, if it doesn't have to do any real searching. It could pick a weapon off of a table, but not out from under a pile of metal scraps.One of the most common reasons for dice rolls on simple actions is a time constraint. I do not see why having a time constraint would mean automatic utter failure for a mindless being on a task that it is otherwise capable of completing satisfactorily.
In other words, it can work just fine until it runs into something that would require an actual dice roll. But even a difficulty 0 roll will stop it cold.
Does that make sense?
PS: Now that the vagueness of the power has been addressed, you're mostly criticizing it based on semi-mechanical reasons of "making sense", right? I want to make sure that I have the issues right here.Yes, the over-arching game-melting-ness of the previous version is successfully, well, minimized, in this version.
I also suggest reminding the GM that social consequences may come to the "owner" of the mindless thing instead of the thing itself. If the owner is known, that is.
One of the most common reasons for dice rolls on simple actions is a time constraint. I do not see why having a time constraint would mean automatic utter failure for a mindless being on a task that it is otherwise capable of completing satisfactorily.
No, 'making sense' is not the sole issue remaining. I also believe that the current incarnation of the exception upgrade is substantially overcosted and that the current list of banned trappings is both too large and too fixed.
I do not believe that robots should require either substantially more refresh than golems or their own equivalent power. I believe that this power is capable of representing both equally without bias. Just not in its current form.
Consequences resulting from an attack on one entity cannot instead place the resulting aspect on another entity.
Social attacks against the creator/owner of a Mindless entity might, in their narrative description, reference the Mindless entity, but they would not mechanically be directed at it, nor defended against by it.
[...]
A power with concrete drawbacks defined at the whim of the GM cannot be balanced outside of a single instance (ie. one particular GM in one particular game for one particular character and even possibly represented by one particular player, in some cases).
...might my edit be improved by defining a few lists of forbidden trappings for some different classes of mindless beings and saying pick one?
Ha. Ha.
What's the Supernatural Stunt comment referring to?
Um...which Powers would go into that new category?
I just flipped through the list and I didn't see much that could be called a stunt.
Which is good, since I've worked hard to avoid Powers that ought to be stunts.
And I'd really rather not split the upgrades off of Powers. That would make the organization of the list significantly more confusing.
Good call concerning Soulfire. No need to specify that it works against Holy Touch, though. Holy Touch doesn't penetrate Catches.
PS: List update won't be today. Too tired.
to fast to perceive (-2) (requires speed powers)
You may use your athletics skill instead of stealth, you can also sprint and sneak in the same action.
To fast to perceive (-2) (requires speed power)
Enemies with a lower alertness than your athletics takes a -2 penalty to trying to block your attacks as they can't properly see your movements.
Shape-shifting Weapon [-1] Your weapon is weightless in your hands and can change its shape either remaining the same size or shrinking. (attache to a IoP)
Giant Weapons [-1] (requires shape-shifting weaponry) Your weapon can now be made much bigger (add +2 to base weapons rating) Giant Weapons are very large and noticeable (at least person sized).
Mega Weapons (requires giant weapon) [-2] Your weapons can become obscenely over sized (car sized or Bigger) they hit for an extra 4 stress and have a zone wide radius of damage.
Giga Weapons (requires mega weapons) [-2] Your weapon can become unbelievably massive (house sized or bigger) they hit for an extra 6 stress and have a two zone radius.
Those aren't stutns I guess. They do seem like upgrades to powers that are seperate from the powers they attach to.
Holy Touch does one stress regardless of toughnesses.
Upon what evidence do you found this conclusion? I see no reason to assume that the stress from Holy Touch has any special interaction with Toughness.
Holy touch fulfills the catch of only "some creatures" not all of them, obviously the power is talking about creatures weak to holy. As for the 1 stress hit part of the power this isn't stated to ignore toughness.
I agree, actually.
Tried to fix all that with my rewrite. Hopefully I succeeded.
PS: I think that this version of The Catch might cover Human Form. Am I onto something here?
It is my understanding that an Item of Power will not grant its benefits to just anyone to whom it is lent, nor that one can gain its benefits without paying for those powers at least temporarily.
As someone who absoulutely loved the Tzimisce in oWoD, I must ask: Would you be willing to write up a more comprehensive and powerful version of Flesh Tyranny? I'd do it myself, but I don't trust myself with custom powers.Don't really know the Tzimisce, so not certain what you're looking for but here's how I've rewritten it:
Why require 3 different skills for this? I don't see any problem with using just Conviction or just Discipline here.Many reasons...
Many reasons...
1. Why not?
2. They make sense in the context of a psychic power which:
- a. Pits mental strength (Conviction) against something.
- b. Uses focused concentration (Discipline) to attack.
- c. Relies on confidence (Presence) for weapon value.
3. Conviction could be used in place of Presence, but Presence differentiates it from pure magic.
4. Uni-skill powers can get boring. Worse they're easily abused when you can grab multiple stunts & powers using the same skill.
5. Multiple skills help discourage min-maxing.
6. In general, this is loosely a lower powered Channeling replacement with "corpus" or body as the element. Keeping a similar skill structure makes it easy and intuitive.
1. Why not?
It cuts down on the Power's usefulness pretty heavily.No, but...
If you need three skills, then only concepts for which those skills are appropriate can use the Power.Yes! Intentionally so. Not looking for a power which can be added as an afterthought simply to make a character more powerful.
Plus it's inelegant. The Power just uses mental strength, splitting it across three skills makes it seem like a bunch of different competencies when it's really one thing.I suspect you mean it's "not efficient" - which is fine. As noted above I want concept to trump efficiency.
PS: How do multiple skills discourage min-maxing? This is an honest question, not a disguised argument.You've already answered that..." If you need three skills, then only concepts for which those skills are appropriate can use the Power."
I suspect you mean it's "not efficient"...
You've already answered that..." If you need three skills, then only concepts for which those skills are appropriate can use the Power."
INEXPLICABLE KNOWLEDGE [-1]
Description: You know things. More things than you ought to know.
Musts: You must have an Aspect related to your knowledge.
Skills Affected: Knowledge skills.
Effects:
Inexplicable Knowledge. You can learn or already know absolutely anything by making a successful roll with an appropriate knowledge skill. (If no skill seems appropriate, use Lore or Scholarship.) The difficulty of these rolls is set by the GM. If your knowledge is limited somehow, like by the sum total of all written information, resolve such limitations through Compels.
Dangerous Knowledge [-1]. Whenever you fail a knowledge roll, you may choose to succeed automatically. If you do so, you suffer a weapon 0 mental attack with an accuracy equal to the difficulty of the knowledge roll that you failed. Use your Discipline to defend against this attack. At the GM's discretion, you may be able to pay some other cost (in Fate Points, consequences, or something else) in order to know something without an attack.
Mental Library [-1]. Your memories constitute a library on every subject that you are familiar with. The rating of the library on a given subject is equal to the skill that is used for knowledge of that subject. You may access this library freely, and other characters may use it by questioning you in detail.
Superior Mental Library [-1]. (Requires Mental Library) Increase the rating of each of your mental libraries by two.
Searchable Mental Library [-1]. (Requires Mental Library) All research using your mental library is two time increments faster.
SUPERNATURAL MARTIAL ARTS [-1]
Description: You can improve your performance in combat by channelling magical energy.
Skills Affected: Combat skills.
Effects:
Special Techniques. You know three techniques from the following list. You may enhance your physical attacks and defences with them by taking a mental stress hit with a value equal to the combined cost of the techniques that you're using. You must declare technique use before rolling. You may only use any given technique once per roll.More Techniques [-1]. You know three additional techniques. You may take this upgrade more than once.
- Enhanced Offence (1 stress): Add 1 to a physical attack roll.
- Enhanced Defence (1 stress): Add 1 to a physical defence roll.
- Holy Strike (2 stress): The enhanced attack is Holy, and satisfies all appropriate Catches.
- Brutal Strike (2 stress): The enhanced attack inflicts 2 additional stress.
- Resist Strike (2 stress): Add 2 to your armour against a physical attack.
- Whirlwind Attack (3 stress): You may apply your attack to an entire zone within its range, without risk of hitting yourself.
- Pierce Armour (4 stress): The enhanced attack ignores all armour.
- Distant Target Technique (X stress): Add X zones to the range of the enhanced attack.
- Rapid Flurry Technique (X stress): Replace the enhanced attack with X attacks. Each of those attacks suffers a -X penalty, but all of them benefit from whatever techniques enhanced the original enhanced attack.
PS: What do you think of the new Powers?Re: Inexplicable Knowledge - seems interesting though probably oriented towards campaigns moving beyond a single city / location. In the right campaign it would be a good power.
Holy strike seems a bit odd but I suppose that was trying to emulate sacred guardian.Indeed.
Does Resist Strike Stack with other Armour, does it just last for the one roll?Yes and yes.
I would probably make pierce Armour cost 2 stress as the max Armour people get is around 3.I was worried that that one would be unfair to the really heavily armoured, and the fact that it stacks with the other techniques made me nervous too. So I erred on the side of weakness. Maybe I'll drop the cost to 3 stress.
Rapid Flurry seems broken for the cost of 3 (flurry 2 + enhanced offense) stress a supernatural martial artist can get two attacks at -1 penalty (or for 4 stress, 3 attacks at a -2 penalty) for high skill levels the penalty is negligible but the extra attacks aren't.I don't think the penalty ever becomes negligible, but I am a bit worried about its power. Any suggestions?
Re: Inexplicable Knowledge - seems interesting though probably oriented towards campaigns moving beyond a single city / location. In the right campaign it would be a good power.Okay, that's good. Not sure why it especially fits into multi-city campaigns, though.
Re: Mnemnosyne's Shadow - this looks a bit expensive, is it more than a stunt allowing you to use Lore in place of Investigation? It is more with the 'dangerous knowledge' piece but not really sure how that would work out in play.This stuff is supposed to have been absorbed into Inexplicable Knowledge. If that doesn't seem workable, please tell me.
Re: Akashic access - Meh...I like the investigative nature of the game too much to enjoy such shortcuts.
Re: Mental Library - Not sure I get this one. Declarations are player actions not character - so you can already do this for free.
Re: Alt Ment Para - Don't think the name fits if you're moving away from mental skills. ;) Not entirely sure I'd charge for simply reflavoring an existing power in any case.It's Alt Mag Para, actually.
Re: Sup Martial Arts - Not sure these are powerful enough to justify the stress. Also, may want to clarify 'more techniques' - can the same technique be take multiple times for a larger bonus?I admit, the balance is pretty much a guess. If you have any suggestions, I'm listening.
Re: Prophecy - Looks good, it's pretty close to a precognition power I wrote up.Awesome.
Re: Min/maxing - can discuss such gaming philosophies some other time in another thread if you like. Afraid it's been too long a day for me to be terribly interested in it now. Besides, probably better off keeping it out of this thread.Don't worry about derailing the thread, I really don't mind.
Not sure why it especially fits into multi-city campaigns, though.This stuff is supposed to have been absorbed into Inexplicable Knowledge. If that doesn't seem workable, please tell me.Ah, hadn't realized you were combining / replacing. As for regional vs local campaigns, I suspect intellectus is better as long as you're local. It's one small part of sponsored magic so probably not more than 1 refresh. IK probably needs a bit of a boost in comparison.
I wouldn't charge for reflavouring either, but using different skills goes beyond reflavouring.I think this is where our differing approaches make a big difference. I generally look at description first and try to fit mechanics to it. I think you give mechanics a higher priority. Suffice it to say, "roll skill X to cause X+dice damage" is the same as "roll skill Y to cause Y+dice damage" as far as I'm concerned. The differences are in the narrative.
This ties into the fleshwarping discussion, actually; a Power that can be used with different skills is stronger than one that can't.See above. ;)
I admit, the balance is pretty much a guess. If you have any suggestions, I'm listening.Well, compare it to evocation / channeling which also uses the mental stress mechanic - Martial Tech is much weaker. It adds one or two shifts/stress while costing multiple mental stress. Evocation adds a skill trait's worth of effect and only costs one mental stress.
Ah, hadn't realized you were combining / replacing. As for regional vs local campaigns, I suspect intellectus is better as long as you're local. It's one small part of sponsored magic so probably not more than 1 refresh. IK probably needs a bit of a boost in comparison.
I think this is where our differing approaches make a big difference. I generally look at description first and try to fit mechanics to it. I think you give mechanics a higher priority.
Suffice it to say, "roll skill X to cause X+dice damage" is the same as "roll skill Y to cause Y+dice damage" as far as I'm concerned. The differences are in the narrative.
See above. ;)
Well, compare it to evocation / channeling which also uses the mental stress mechanic - Martial Tech is much weaker. It adds one or two shifts/stress while costing multiple mental stress. Evocation adds a skill trait's worth of effect and only costs one mental stress.
Personally I don't like adding a skill trait in damage - I think magic is too easily abused. So I'd probably reduce the costs - something like 'costs one mental stress when the roll result is three or less'. That's an off the cuff possibility though...would have to give it more thought or some testing.
Also, as a thematics and consistency issue - I'd call anything adding stress a bonus to weapon value. That's what it is functionally. Stress, at least when counted as boxes, is really a meta-game concept.
Given how many custom Powers have been rewritten, the list should probably come with a disclaimer explaining which ones.
So I'm trying to make one. Please tell me if anything is missing from this list:
Incite Emotion
Holy Touch
Bless This House
The Catch
Human Form
Feeding Dependency
Living Dead
Breath Weapon
Claws
Spirit Form
Pack Instincts
Physical Immunity
Thanks, Silverblaze. I'd been wondering about that.
Any opinion on the Powers?
Your natural weapons power is great in my opinion and should simply replace breath weapon and claws.
The rest I need to think about and run through a few scenarios in my head.
Physical Immunity we are getting to the end of and it'll likely be finished soon and ready for the list.
Multiple-action powers are, in my experience, simply too difficult to balance effectively to be worth the gain.
Prophecy is listing 'knowledge rolls' as a separate entity from assessments and declarations, which isn't really accurate.
...(I think it is minorly op, not even close to the level of spell casting for example)...
Further, I would make it clear weather Piercing Attack ignores armor from toughness powers (it doesn't satisfy a catch, but it does ignore armor?
I don't know why this power only allows Holy Strike, what if a Demon Scion (some mercenary like Kincaid who was really good at martial arts) took this power and wanted to satisfy thematically appropriate catches?
What happened to the 2 stress per attack to satisfy the catch on any supernatural entity from Sacred Guardian?
On Incite Effect:
I really like this...
First, on Physical/Mental Effect, I would make it clear that if you do not have at range the target *may* defend as though it were a fists attack (with the same wording on both, not different wording as it is now, formatting nitpick), or against the Incited Effect as normal (I think this is what is intended, and it should be IMO, but if it is not, fine). I would make it clear that when you use the power you roll the skill you chose, and then the target chooses to defend as if it was a fists attack (using weapons or fists or athletics as appropriate) or against the effect incited (using discipline or endurance or might as appropriate).
I would also not restrict physical effects to only be defensible by endurance (or athletics with aNo.
- cost), sometimes the effect may be something you defend against with might, sometimes the target will be able to use dodging with something that isn't athletics. It entirely depends on the flavor of the effect incited, this could be something you choose when you pick the power, or it could be something that the target chooses when they defend (choice between dodge, or just take it and shrug it off with endurance, may be an option. In the case of grasping shadows the target may want to dodge, or fight them off with might). If the target chooses, it does make the physical version weaker than the mental version (because I cant really think of a mental thing that wouldn't be defended with discipline, excluding a stunt on the target to use conviction or something).
On the other hand you can use the physical version for a wide range of scene maneuvers like knocking over bookcases, or destroying cover, or lighting things on fire, or placing a Clinging Darkness aspect (in the case of shadows), whereas the mental version (without mass effect) doesn't make any sense for scene maneuvers (unless you theme your shadows as sapping mental energy or something, but that is kind of a stretch IMO). I may make this distinction explicit, allowing Incite Physical to make broader maneuvers but be defended by athletics or endurance (or might), where Incite Mental can only make maneuvers on a single targets but in return can only be defended by discipline. Further, Incite Mass would allow a physical effect to be zone wide, negating the ability to defend with athletics (can't dodge it when the shadows cover the whole zone), or allow a mental effect to place a scene or multi-target aspect (you make the whole area depressing).
This leads into the last things that were unclear to me, Incite Mass Effect says you may make spray and zone attacks does it allow you to make maneuvers against a zone or multiple targets (as you could with evocation)?
Also, I assume making a zone attack comes with a penalty to the roll (-2?) but this is not clear (or it may not have a penalty, is that balanced?).
I also wanted to add my thanks for compiling these lists (they are very useful).
I'm well aware that Flurry is unnecessary and a lot of work, but I don't really care...I do this as a hobby, the work is part of the point.It's not just that it's difficult and unnecessary, but also that it's likely to be broken no matter what you do. Rather like I suspect it is, now.
(And of course, much of what I write is unnecessary and questionably useful. Doesn't bother me.)
Knowledge rolls may or may not be separate from Assessments and Declarations depending on interpretation. I'm trying to cover all possibilities here.What other means would a 'knowledge roll' have to interact with the game mechanics?
What do you think of Precognition?It feels a bit weak for a 2-refresh power, but definitely more powerful than a 1-refresh power.
It's not just that it's difficult and unnecessary, but also that it's likely to be broken no matter what you do. Rather like I suspect it is, now.
What other means would a 'knowledge roll' have to interact with the game mechanics?
It feels a bit weak for a 2-refresh power, but definitely more powerful than a 1-refresh power.
(I hope you weren't including the integral trapping-mover in the valuation.)
I think part of the problem is the unpredictability of the assessment, and thus the unpredictability of its usefulness (I mean, really, when that mook of a mugger jumps you on the street, it could get you 'bum leg' or 'just a bad apple' or anything in-between). I suggest including some guiding principles as to the nature of the aspects revealed. Such as that they should be reasonably expected to be useful within the scene in which they're revealed.
No.
Here's why:
Taking a high Athletics and Endurance is what you do when you want to be hard to hurt. Letting attacks hit other skills basically says "screw you" to that investment.
Heck, even hitting Endurance is a bit sketchy. Athletics defence is usually higher, because of Speed Powers and the principles of optimization.
Plus, it gives an extra option to characters who could already hit Athletics just by pulling a gun.
If people could Incite Effect against Stealth or Craftsmanship or whatever, Incite Emotion would frequently hit a defence of 0. That's in no way fair.
Plus, you can defend against anything and everything by being somewhere else. And anything that Might would work for can be covered by Endurance, which is often based off of physical bulk.
Incite Mental Effect can be used for scene maneuvers, subject to standard reasonableness tests. I don't see any problem with that...the scope of possible maneuvers is something that has to be worked out at the table.
Also, you can dodge a zone attack with Athletics. In fact, that's basically the only way to defend against a zone attack...you can't block an explosion, but you can get away from it.
That was not the point of that section. Of course you could allow the person to pick what it hits when they pick up the power (but as you mentioned that is probably broken), the real gist was that you allow the opponent to choose the defense for physical powers. This allows you to differentiate physical and mental because physical is weaker in this are but better at maneuvers, and mental hits discipline (pretty much exclusively) but cant really do maneuvers on a scene. Anything might could work for is not covered by endurance, there are plenty of things strong people can do that tough people cannot. Like pushing or shoving things, for a quick example.
How do you use Incite mental effect (without the Mass upgrade) to place an aspect on a zone? You cant physically effect anything, you cant change the mood in the zone (that is what Incite Mass does), you can only effect one thing at a time, and the thing must have a mind, thus you can only maneuver against one character (I mean it could make scene maneuvers subject to reasonableness tests, but there isn't anything reasonable to do IMO). With incite physical effect you can start stuff on fire, knock over bookcases, rupture water pipes ect. depending on your power, all targeting one thing, but effecting at least a zone.
I don't think it is reasonable to dodge a zone attack with athletics (at least not without justifying it using a scene/zone aspect) because mechanically when you defend, you end up in the same zone. If I caused an explosion in your zone, moving around in the zone is not going to save you. The explosion has many ways to kill you including heat, shock wave, shrapnel, and oxygen deprivation. You may be able to justify dodging shrapnel, but probably not the others (unless you say you dodged behind cover or something, which would require a zone aspect like stacked crates). Without cover or something to hide behind, any defense against a zone wide explosion type attack has to center on how well you are able to shrug it off, which is endurance.
I still don't think it is close to as overpowered as spell casting. At lowish levels of refresh (around 9-10, which is lowish for a wizard at least) Refinement is broken as crap. There is no other power in the game that allows you a +2 bonus to rolls for 1 refresh, which is trivial if you use refinement on control to push a spec up to 2 and a big focus item. You can do this no only for your primary attack, but also for all other skills together through thaumaturgy (which you then use as a ritual to simulate any non-combat skill, I am sure you know all this). There is also the problem of just drawing a huge amount of power, taking all your mental and physical stress (to draw it and take as backlash) and then spending all the fate points you got with compels all session to defeat the bad guy (say you have offensive control +2 and a +2 focus, and superb disc, then you spend 3 fate points, so you have a control roll around 16, then you have a +2 power focus and +1 spec, and 5 conviction, so you pull 8 shifts for free, and then take a 8 stress hit, taking your 2 mild consequences so you have 16 shifts of power. Note this is trivial with your 4 focus item slots and your free spec along with 1 refinement, now you get to make a weapon 16 attack at a 16 roll for basically free, what is going to come close, even with liberal fatepoints to not taking huge consequences right off the bat?)
Can you give me an example of how it could be broken?It's a force multiplier useable against single targets. More than that, it's ALSO useable against multiple targets.
Now, I can nerf this as much as I want by increasing the penalty. What penalty would you think appropriate?
Um, none. But rolls don't all interact with the mechanics, some are means of altering the narrative.If all it alters is narrative, with no mechanical backing, why am I paying mechanical resources to gain access to it?
What do you mean by "the integral trapping-mover"?
It's a force multiplier useable against single targets. More than that, it's ALSO useable against multiple targets.
Applying penalties only shifts the threshold a character must pass for it to become broken.
I don't really feel like doing the math on it right now, though.
If all it alters is narrative, with no mechanical backing, why am I paying mechanical resources to gain access to it?
The third clause the name of which I'm too lazy to look up which allows for the moving of the power's trappings if the user also possesses Prophecy.
I don't think that Flurry should be an effect that is available in this game.
If it's representing multiple attacks per target, it would be reasonably replaced with a simple bonus on the roll, already available in this power.
If it's representing attacks against multiple targets in a short time-span, it would be reasonably by spray attacks or by the zone-attack already included in this power.
Multiple-action powers are, in my experience, simply too difficult to balance effectively to be worth the gain.
Prophecy is listing 'knowledge rolls' as a separate entity from assessments and declarations, which isn't really accurate.
Not really sure FATE supports that conclusion. Suppose you do find that place where they're reasonable...and now I spend tags and fate points to increase both. Are they still reasonable once each has been turned into something effective?
Out of curiosity, why are you determined to create a dual action mechanic?
Why would Fate Points change anything?Because two successes is usually considered better than one. Isn't that the point behind two effective actions?
Because two successes is usually considered better than one. Isn't that the point behind two effective actions?
Simple math.
Lets say I have a skill of 4, a stunt that grants plus one, and the weapon value would be 2.
Assume neutral rolls for attack and defense, assume defender has the same skill.
each "attack", though this could apply to almost anything that is opposed, would deal three shifts of effect. 6 shifts of success. Twice as much as 3 shifts of success.
Now, lets assume I can use three aspects for effect on this "attack" that's +6 (+2 per aspect/fate point used in this fashion). I cannot use each aspect more than once threfore I can only get three tags/invokes for this roll.
Wait! I get two attacks so I can spend six fate points this exchange. That means double the shifts of success in one exchange.
+6 becomes +12 overall.
Grapples:
Normally a grappled foe only gets one chance (one exchange) to remove the aspect "grappled" before that foe is good and screwed. Grapples are very powerful.
With multiple actions grapple become far weaker, since multiple actions per exchange can grant multiple chances to remove the grappled aspect.
Grapples would then need a upgrade, upgrade stunts, or a rewrite. just to make multiple actions work. The system was designed not to have them...yet here some people are trying to force them in.
You're still just getting two shifts/FP. Those shifts don't become better because they're attached to multiple actions.Actually, they do. Since they're different rolls I can use the same aspect twice but, more importantly, I can affect two or more discrete targets.
Maybe include a rule that you can only invoke the same aspect once per exchange?
Isn't that already a standard rule?
Isn't that already a standard rule?No, the rule is "once per roll" I believe. Currently you can use the same aspect on multiple different defense rolls or on both offense and defense if it makes sense. A once per exchange rule would eliminate that.
No, the rule is "once per roll" I believe. Currently you can use the same aspect on multiple different defense rolls or on both offense and defense if it makes sense. A once per exchange rule would eliminate that.
Actually, they do. Since they're different rolls I can use the same aspect twice but, more importantly, I can affect two or more discrete targets.
I see little point in continuing to argue though. Time for me to move on to other subjects. ;)
Please, before you leave, explain why using your FP on two different targets at once is better than using them in other ways.:o Taking two entities down means two fewer to hurt you. One more than only taking one target down. If/when it's two actions and not just two attacks it's even better.
And then, please explain why this advantage can't fairly be paid for with Refresh.Play a couple of games that allow extra actions in one way or another. It's the way to power game in everything from d20 to Savage Worlds and Shadowrun. Can't boil down years of experience into a few sentences though, so I'll simply suggest you run the math.
As for raising the FP-spending cap...I don't think it's very valuable. I've never, in all my time spent playing this game, had a player hit the limit of 7.Really not sure what spending cap you're talking about...there isn't a limit to the number of fate points you can spend other than the number of usable aspects and how many fate points you have available or can borrow.
Letting people spend more FP doesn't even seem worth a stunt, to me.
:o Taking two entities down means two fewer to hurt you. One more than only taking one target down. If/when it's two actions and not just two attacks it's even better.
Play a couple of games that allow extra actions in one way or another. It's the way to power game in everything from d20 to Savage Worlds and Shadowrun. Can't boil down years of experience into a few sentences though, so I'll simply suggest you run the math.
Really not sure what spending cap you're talking about...there isn't a limit to the number of fate points you can spend other than the number of usable aspects and how many fate points you have available or can borrow.
First, you can already do this with spray attacks.Sigh, shouldn't have let myself get sucked back in. You're right, spray attacks work! Why not dump the multi-roll hack and stick with the core rule? My guess is you want something more powerful...which should tell you something about multiple actions right there.
How do you wanna test it?
Sigh, shouldn't have let myself get sucked back in. You're right, spray attacks work! Why not dump the multi-roll hack and stick with the core rule? My guess is you want something more powerful...which should tell you something about multiple actions right there.
So, is anyone willing to help me test Flurry?I'm not certain we were discussing Flurry specifically - it's why I clarified my statement to:
Given how many words have been spent calling it broken, shouldn't someone be willing to try and prove it?
Multiple effective actions in one turn is overpowered.If Flurry can only use the two "Enhanced" attack modifiers it looks more like it's in the 'why bother' category. If I have interpreted correctly, it's probably never going to be worth giving yourself a mental consequence to hit for one extra physical stress in an exchange.
You could presumably limit them so much they aren't very effective but then why bother?
Logically, though, if they have a Sponsor, they *aren't* a Pure Mortal anymore.This depends entirely on the nature of the Sponsorship arrangement.
Already-supernatural characters should not get anything, though.Which is why I advocate a cost of [N/A].
Logically, though, if they have a Sponsor, they *aren't* a Pure Mortal anymore
I'm not certain we were discussing Flurry specifically - it's why I clarified my statement to:If Flurry can only use the two "Enhanced" attack modifiers it looks more like it's in the 'why bother' category. If I have interpreted correctly, it's probably never going to be worth giving yourself a mental consequence to hit for one extra physical stress in an exchange.
On the other hand, if you can add Holy Strike you do 7 extra stress at a cost of 8 mental. Add Piercing Attack and you're doing 12 extra stress (assuming everyone has Armor:1 it's 17 more if you make it Armor:2) for a cost of 11 mental stress. Add Whirlwind Attack and you'll do that 12 or 17 extra physical stress to everyone in the zone for 14 mental stress. Do note, that's extra stress - a Claws opponent is doing 3-5 per exchange depending on armor. Ms Flurry is doing that 3-5 plus the listed extra.
So it goes from worthless to near take out to OMG you wiped a zone!
Which is why I'll repeat: Multiple effective actions in one turn is overpowered.
Edit: Also have to say the +X mental stress cost seems overly complex. I used a spreadsheet to calculate the numbers above. Not going to pull up Calc in a game. :-\
I'd be up for a test fight sometime. I'm just not sure how such things work over the internet. Never done it.
My schedule is odd, but I could work something out.
I enjoy being proved wrong when I'm a pessimist.
I don't think it's very complex...it's just addition. Count costs, add. Why would you need calc?To check different scenarios quickly.
Wiping a zone for that cost seems fair to me.So you want to make evoc the same as thaumaturgy?
After all, you can do that with Ritual too.
So you want to make evoc the same as thaumaturgy?
I'm going to finalize Immunity, which I meant to do a while ago.
If I have time after all that, I'll do a project on the various types of Possession. Said project will probably involve a Domination rewrite.
It's on the Play-By-Post forum. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,33537.0.html)
What do you think of the changes here? Any objections?
No. You pay for all the techniques you want to use on your attack at once.
So 1-2-3-4 does 10 stress.
This isn't necessarily good or bad...it makes consequences better at soaking up technique costs, but it also means you'll need your consequences more.
Should I make that more clear?
I think this is a great power rewrite, and makes tons of sense when applied to a ghost themed character. As far as I know, the original Spirit Form power (for the same -3 cost) allowed you to move objects with conviction, talk to/interact with people (or be invisible, depending on how manifested you were), and gave a bonus to social skills depending on your form. It also almost certainly allowed you to cast spells that worked in the physical world. On the other hand it did not give you any immunity to physical effects. With this version, in order to get a similar effect I have to spend 5 refresh and still don't get the social skill bonus (which was kinda lame anyway). This cost makes sense since you also have the option of being physically immune.
My question is how you would apply this rewrite (which upgrades etc.) to a Bob like spirit with variable levels of manifestation. Clearly Bob can cast spells in the mortal world (at least Evil Bob can, I don't remember if normal Bob ever does), he also goes through walls/is invisible, or talks to people. It seems that he either has this power with an upgraded Manifestation that allows you to change state at will (expensive version), or he has this power but without the "Physical Immunity" clause of Insubstantial and and then is always in some level of manifestation, sort of part way between corporeal and not, and is thus effected by attacks, but still not effected by walls, and is maybe invisible when he is mostly incorporeal and thus cannot perceive/effect people in the mortal world (this would be the cheaper option, similar to Spirit Form from RAW).
To clarify what I am after, basically I am wondering if this power is capable of emulating the power as written in the book and if not how you would do that.
Basically, I think this power perfectly models ghosts (as seen in ghost story), but the base level seems very under-powered to me since you cannot do anything to affect the normal world (which again is very true to ghost story). Yes it gives you immunity, but in return you give up any useful interaction (including talking if i am reading it correctly) and in order to affect the physical world (and do anything in a combat) you have to give up the immunity anyway. On the other hand if I wanted to make a spirit from the nevernever (something similar to Bob) I would want it to be able to talk and use magic in the real world, but probably not have immunity (as that would be broken), and potentially also be able to disconnect somewhat from the world (gaining immunity? and loosing the ability to act in the normal world in any way, this may just be swift transition).
What I want:
- Be able to be either visible or invisible at will (while invisible, you would be unable to perceive "anything useful")
- Be able to pass through walls. Potentially also be able to fly (I don't know if this is built in, or should require an upgrade, like physics abuse, for balance reasons)
- Be able to cast spells (or pretty much do any non-physical thing) that affect normal people
- For balance purposes, you would likely have to be vulnerable (at least when manifested an able to affect people with spells)
This would also come with the vulnerabilities you listed, and would require upgrades (like you have) to make physical effects beyond maybe opening a book/flipping through pages (moving the book is a no-go without an upgrade).
Item Limitation [-0]. You may transfer Limitation and the Powers attached to it to another character, causing you to lose them and causing the other character to gain them. They may then transfer them freely, but if another character has your Powers when a Milestone occurs, they must pay for them. Similarly, if you do not have your Powers when a Milestone occurs the Refresh invested in them becomes free. Whenever the Limited Powers trapping causes you to lose access to your Powers it is possible that another character will steal them. If they do so, it is as though you had voluntarily transferred the Powers to them. You may choose the process by which your Powers are transferred or stolen, but both processes should be roughly equal in difficulty. This upgrade is usually used to represent items that grant Powers, and the process for acquiring Powers through it is generally just picking up the item in question.
Forgot to post it earlier, but I finally figured out what was bugging me about Superior Enthrallment. What, exactly, is stopping a character with this power from enthralling a bunch of mooks, then giving them all Superior Enthrallment, then commanding them to do as he just did? Eventually building a pyramid that controls the entire human population.
Or hell, how about just enthralling everyone in the party, giving them a huge power bonus? Or even enthalling oneself?
Also, how would this power interact with Ritual Psychomancy, Thaumaturgy, and Superior Psychomancy?
Might Over Magic also moves a defense trapping. That costs refresh if caused by a stunt. It should cost refresh if caused by a power.
Refresh Cost for a +2 to defense vs magic stunt and a trapping-mover stunt = 2
Oh, no way. I call shenanigans on that.
You can move trappings from skill to skill, but you can't move a trapping into another trapping in order to take advantage of a single-trapping bonus like that.
That aside, Parry Magic isn't the only thing this Power does. I wouldn't even call it the main thing. So I'm hesitant about making it too strong.
And it just seems wrong for a niche Power like this one to be the path to the single highest passive defence available in the game.
You know, Powers that scale in power depending on what other Powers you have are a bugger to balance.
Yeah, this lets you take down the wide variety of intangible spells by punching them.
If this doesn't make sense, then neither do Warden swords. It's the same basic effect.
I can't see how it makes sense in the Dresden Universe
Dresden vs the 'Barbed-Wire Spell'
Might is pretty much about being strong.
Is it? The warden sword is a counterspell at a fixed value, no? You touch the warden sword to a spell and it dissipates, not you cleave through it, using your weapons skill and it shatters.
Not saying it's a bad power. Just saying, Not at my table, cause I can't see how it makes sense in the Dresden Universe. Makes plenty of sense in other worlds
Upgrades replace the required power, ‘refunding’ the cost for that power, up to +1. For example: when upgrading from Deep Shadow to Deepest Shadow, the -1 refresh for Deep Shadow is refunded, allowing you to purchase an additional -1 refresh of powers, if desired. When upgrading from Deepest Shadows to Grasping Shadows, +1 refresh is refunded, allowing you to purchase an additional -1 of powers, if desired. Each level must be purchased independently prior to any refunds being allocated.
That's just an illusion cast by evil space elves who want to deceive you into thinking I made a mistake.
I seem to be making a lot of minor errors at the moment, I just posted a Power without a Refresh cost.
TELEKINESIS [-2]
Description: You can exert physical force with the power of your mind alone.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Discipline
Effects:
Mind Over Matter. Whenever you would use your Might skill, use your Conviction skill instead. If you have a Strength Power, apply its effects to your Conviction skill whenever they would apply to your Might skill.
Telekinetic Reach. You have a basic range of one zone. Anything you could normally only do to things in your zone, you can do from a zone away. If you use this effect to do something which requires good fine motor control, your Discipline restricts whatever skill you use.
Telekinetic Attacks. You may use your Discipline skill to hit people. Attacks made this way include stress bonuses from Strength Powers.
Enhanced Telekinesis [-1]. Your basic range is equal to your line of sight. In addition, attacks that you make with this Power are now weapon 2 and may be enhanced with any Natural Weaponry upgrade except for Summoned, Explosive, and Ranged.
Defensive Telekinesis [-1]. You are protected by a shell of telekinetic power. You may use your Discipline skill to defend against physical attacks or to create physical barriers.
Self-Propelling Telekinesis [-1]. (Requires Defensive Telekinesis) Your telekinesis is strong enough to let you carry yourself. This allows you to fly as though you had the Wings power, using Discipline instead of Athletics to move around in the air.
I should have been more clear, can wards be built on them?
Oh, great.
You made me see it, and I can't un-see it.
I don't think anybody's actually going to be confused, but it's bugging me now.
How did I...
I blame communist space elves.
Anyway, fixed. Dealt with the irritating wording oddity while I was at it.
Sorry, I'm Canadian. It's my national duty to out-polite everybody.And you're doing us proud!
Sorry if that bothers you.
Also, Jim Butcher himself has phased out this problem as much as he could-- not just with justifications like the architectural set-up but with simply trying to ignore it as much as possible.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by this?
Well, let me see how spoiler-free I can make this...
1) Mac's place was specifically designed to counter this.
2) In Cold Days, the location in Chicago that Dresden rested in just happened to have architecture that made it ok to have electronics.
3) In the first few books there was more of a mention of Dresden's power affecting the Blue Beetle. In later books, he seems to have much less trouble (including in more modern Hummers).
4) In books like Fool Moon it talked about how even being inside Murphy's office her hard drive would blow if not unplugged. In later books like Changes he seemed fine inside an FBI building and I think it was Turncoat when he was in an accounting firm's office where his deliberately hexing a phone didn't phase the computer.
I am subject to be off a little on these examples, but these are ones that came to my head while attempting to solidify why my perceptions are such.
My point is simply that it seems to me Butcher is trying to tone down how much Harry's anti-tech aura affects the outside world.
Looks interesting, but your formatting and wording are giving me trouble.
Is this the same as what you wrote?
UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS [-4]
Description: You can call up weapons from a magical realm inside your soul.
Sponsor: This magic is self-sponsored.
Agenda: As self-sponsored magic, this power lacks an agenda. Compels from its debt generally involve brutal headaches or one's magic going haywire.
Evocation: Unlimited Blade Works Evocations take the the form of spectral swords that appear from nowhere.
Thaumaturgy: Unlimited Blade Works rituals can be used to conjure weapons.
Evothaum: Unlimited Blade Works allows its user to conjure weapons with Evocation's speed and methods.
Extra Benefits: Unlimited Blade Works allows its user to use rituals to create temporary Items of Power. The complexity of such rituals is set by the GM.
If so, seems kinda weak.
I think it might be fair to include the Reality Marble in Unlimited Blade Works.
Reality Marble would make a pretty cool stand-alone Power though. We'd just need to define the process of entering the world and its duration a bit more. Might be worth including some clear advantages for being in your own marble too.
PS: If anyone has any ideas for making Limitation clearer, I'd like to hear them. I'm mostly talking to Lavecki, but everyone's welcome to contribute.
What utility effects that you can't 'copy' rules wise with evocation/thaumaturgy did you want out of unlimited blade works?
For example, can I generate several weapons, give them out to all my friends and stage the most well armed prison break in history?
That's something that 'sword themed evocation' can't accomplish.
That's something that 'sword themed evocation' can't accomplish. Then, the next question to ask is, "is this usage of the power going to be a one off thing, which could be modeled by using fate points for temporary access to a power, or something that happens often?"Are you referring to the reality marble or the power as a whole? Of course I plan on using it as much as possible, though not on random thugs of course.(both) I was just trying to balance the Reality Marble around being able to trap enemies in a 'Faux Demesne' for a fight.
So, as an example, White Court vampires technically have access to some sort of domination/long term mental control through their powerset. If we look at Tomas as a PC, how often has he used this? Never. So it probably shouldn't appear on his character sheet.
So, when writing up a custom power, you should be thinking along the lines of, 'what will it be used to do 90% of the time?' Then, you can add expansions of the power-set that are there for people who use uncommon applications of the power on a regular basis.
No, I'm saying that if you are just going to use the power 90%+ for the attack/block/maneuver that evocation can already do, and use it to 'make' relatively normal weapons that you can hand out to your friends (some sort of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds) then the power is fine as just 'sponsored magic'.I see, I hadn't slept when I wrote that post so I'm not surprised I misunderstood something.
So, the parts of the power that you can't do with that power already should be the ones you spend all the time and rules effort on.
For example, the the 'reality marble' just an excuse to have fight where you can throw huge gouts of fire at each other and not damage the countryside? May be best implemented as a genre convention of the game, not a specific power.
Or can you do other things with it?
Examples I can think of:
Store stuff in it. even large things, like, say boats, automobiles, or minions and then take them out when you need them.
Act as a barrier to escape, so that once someone is in it, they have to deal with you?
Act as a maneuver generation engine, that doesn't have the stress limitations of evocation (i.e. something like the 'incite effect' power)?
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----------------Well it's supposed to be an ability that gives you the means of casting magic to summon blades instantly, so if you don't already have evocation and thaumaturgy it cost more, but if you have them already then you get a rebate. I wasn't the one who suggested that part.
Now that I think of it, writing up 'magical sponsor' as a power which adds onto magical powers and replaces 'sponsored magic' may help clean up the rules a little bit. This also allows you have sponsors which are more powerful (and costs points) or sponsors that suck somehow (and give you back points).
This also removes the odd cost difference of sponsored magic when you do or don't already have other magic powers.
Well, right of the bat, I feel that item limitation should be its own power (coincidently that is a lot like that transfer power we were talking about a while ago).
Well, right of the bat, I feel that item limitation should be its own power (coincidently that is a lot like that transfer power we were talking about a while ago).
Additionally I would alter the wording so that it says, instead of •If it will matter rarely (perhaps once every 6 sessions or so), reduce the cost by one-sixth.
Maybe have it say, If you will be able to use it 5/6 sessions the cost is 1/6 less, rounding up or down as GM wishes.
Um, doesn't that change the meaning?
Would Reality Marble be adujudicated similarly to Reality Warper, but only while you're inside the marble? I could see it as just Reality Warper or Demesne with a bunch of upgrades, and a Cassandra's Tears-esque ability to place world aspects, like THE NAZIS WON, DINOSAURS EVERYWHERE, or OLD WORLD OF DARKNESS.
No same meaning. If I can only use it 1/5 times it's the same as not being able to use it 4/5 times.
The confusion may be though that I am saying how often they can use the powers affected instead of how often limitation affects the powers.
There is a Sponsor Power on the list already, for what it's worth. It's not very nicely formatted though.
I think Unlimited Blade Works needs something extra. Any ideas? I'm not familiar with the source material, so I don't know what's appropriate.
As for Reality Marble, how about this:
REALITY MARBLE [-1]
Description: You can travel to a magical sub-universe of your own creation and drag other people with you.
Skills affected: Conviction, others.
Effects:
Reality Marble. As an action, you may spend a Fate Point to enter your Reality Marble. If you wish to bring other people with you, you may roll your Conviction skill. Then every other character within a zone is forced to enter your Reality Marble with you unless they beat your roll with a defense roll using Conviction or Athletics. People drawn into the Marble remain there until you decide to send everyone back or get knocked unconscious. However, you can't keep people longer than the time indicated by adding your Conviction roll to "half a minute" on the time chart.
Different Rules [-varies]. The laws of physics are somehow different in your Marble. Negotiate the effects and costs of this upgrade with your GM. Examples to come.
Would Reality Marble be adujudicated similarly to Reality Warper, but only while you're inside the marble? I could see it as just Reality Warper or Demesne with a bunch of upgrades, and a Cassandra's Tears-esque ability to place world aspects, like THE NAZIS WON, DINOSAURS EVERYWHERE, or OLD WORLD OF DARKNESS.I'm not familiar with reality warper but yeah, it's only in effect while inside the Reality Marble. They are really fun 'worlds'. They tend to look more like a giant stage than actual planets or such, good for dramatic fights.
Limitation mattering once per 6 sessions does not mean it matters 1/6th of the time.
Additionally I would alter the wording so that it says, instead of •If it will matter rarely (perhaps once every 6 sessions or so), reduce the cost by one-sixth.The first part is taken directly from the power. The second post is me saying the same thing but backwards.
Maybe have it say, If you will be able to use it 5/6 sessions the cost is 1/6 less, rounding up or down as GM wishes.
Maybe with Unlimited Blade Works it gets a duration boost automatically? That would fit in line with the power, it's meant to be fired for extended durations in rapid fire.
As for reality marble itself, that looks like a good write up. It's also an ability that is supposed to be different for each person using it. So it might cost differently based on the abilities it goes with in it, which I think is what you have in different rules and would work perfectly.
One other reality marble I remember off the top of my head,(wasn't technically an RM I think but it more or less is one) is a giant Roman theater where the user's attacks bypass all armor. So I guess it'd be a -4 cost in line with Mystic Eyes of Death Perception for that one.
The way they tend to work, is like a Demesne except they have one specific thing they do normally. So the World Aspects would have to be set up ahead of time when you first take the ability. Though you could possibly change the Reality marble later, it would have to be a certain amount of sessions later and maybe after one of your aspects had changed. The marbles are supposed to be physical constructs of your inner self or something. I am speaking fairly loosely on them but I believe it's correct.
So someone's reality marble might be a case of them having ton of speed, toughness, and recovery, and flight abilities in in a world without light.
Yeah, that.
Maybe +2 shifts of duration to all spells, with attack evocations leaving behind mundane swords that last two exchanges.
That sound good to you?
Thanks.I would have to go look up other examples but yeah, that all sounds like stuff that would go on in a Reality Marble. I'd say set up Reality marble with a low cost of some kind, then add on extra abilities/declarations that go with it at extra cost when you first make it. Maybe give a rebate to them that they only apply in the reality marble.
But honestly, I think I left some important stuff out. Like what it's like inside a Marble. I'll fix that in the next draft.
Any ideas for what different rules a Reality Marble could have?
My ideas:
-All technology below X on the hexing chart fails to function in the Reality Marble.
-Everyone suffers some kind of attack each exchange. Maybe the area is super hot or something.
-There's a persistent Block up against some kind of action. Maybe it's so dark nobody can see, maybe the local physics don't allow violence, etc.
-Everybody heals faster.
-The zones that the Marble is made up of are moving.
Stuff like that is probably best represented by buying whatever other Power you want and adding an "only in the Marble" Limitation.
Hey I just copied the example on the custom power sheet for that ability hah.
Incidentally, 4 Refresh just to ignore armour ratings? That's pretty pricey.
Okay, sounds neat. I'll try to cover that in the next draft.
Not quite. There are some subtle differences in the language that produce quite substantial implications.
The second wording, for instance, implies that the affected powers would be unavailable for the whole duration of the 6th session, while the first leaves the powers unavailable only for some amount of time during that session.
The Mystic Eyes ignore Toughness as well as armour. That's why they cost 4.Oh I see, that is a very good point. That example would definitely lower the cost then. Maybe a -1 or -2.
Edit: I'd also like to take a stab at statting out Noble Phantasms as a power later, which might be of interest to others on the board who mentioned doing games involving servants. These are sorta similar to Reality Marbles in that they are abilities that aren't the same, though they appear in some kind of attack form, weapon form, or beneficial buff abilities and the like.
Some examples of these are
Gae Bulg: A spear that causes wounds that can't be healed.
Exaclibur: A huge light based attack that I'd say is something like 8-14 shifts.
Unlimited blade works as mentioned in above posts. A reality marble attack.
Gates of Babylon: Gates to the user's Treasury Vault containing their vast array of Items of Power. This ability is useless if they have no Items of Power. They can shoot the Items of Power from the gate as projectiles with tremendous force, or take them out and wield them. Unlimited Blade Works is a "cheap imitation" of this ability.
Okay, here's Reality Marble 2.
REALITY MARBLE [-1]
Description: You can travel to a magical sub-universe of your own creation and drag other people with you.
Note: Many characters are more powerful inside their Reality Marble than they are outside of it. Such characters should attach an appropriate version of the Limitation Power to whatever Powers they have while inside the Marble.
Skills affected: Conviction, others.
Effects:
Personal Universe. You have a personal universe called a Reality Marble. Design it when you take this Power. You may give it an Aspect of your choice, and as long as it has at least one zone you may give it any number of zones you want and arrange them as you please. You must designate one zone as the "entry zone" which characters arrive in when you use this Power. Your Reality Marble cannot be inhabited, and its design cannot include anything that gives you a significant advantage.
Reality Marble. As an action, you may spend a Fate Point to enter your Reality Marble. If you wish to bring other people with you, you may roll your Conviction skill. Then every other character in your zone is forced to enter your Reality Marble with you unless they beat your roll with a defense roll using Conviction or Athletics. People drawn into the Marble remain there until you decide to send everyone back or lose consciousness. You can't send people back one by one; it's all or nothing. And you can't keep people longer than the time indicated by adding your Conviction roll to "half a minute" on the time chart.
Different Rules [-varies]. Your Reality Marble has a special rule. Negotiate the effects and costs of this upgrade with your GM. You can only purchase this upgrade once. Here are some examples of possible special rules, with appropriate costs:
[-1] Peaceful World. Inside your Marble, all attempts at physical violence face a block with strength equal to your Conviction. In addition, all characters in your Marble have armour 4 against all physical attacks.
[-1] Random Entry. Instead of entering the Marble through the entry zone, characters are randomly scattered among the zones of the Marble. If the Marble is large enough, this may prevent them from seeing each other when they enter.
[-1] Clinging Marsh. The soft and sticky ground of the Marble imposes a border value of 1 on every zone.
[-1] Heavy Gravity. Might restricts all physical skills inside the Marble.
[-2] Anti-Technology Field. Anything rated 8 or lower on the hexing table fails to function inside the Marble.
[-2] Killing Heat. Everyone faces an accuracy 6 weapon 2 attack against their Endurance each exchange from the extreme heat of the Marble.
[-2] King Of The Hill. You enter your Marble in a different zone than everyone else. A zone border equal to your Conviction blocks entry to your zone, and its fortifications add 3 to whatever armour value its occupants have against attacks coming from outside of it.
[-3] Ocean Depths. The entire Marble is underwater.
PS: Not totally confident in the balance of those rules. Most of the costs are guesses.
On a related note:
UNLIMITED BLADE WORKS [-4]
Description: You can call up weapons from a magical realm inside your soul.
Sponsor: This magic is self-sponsored.
Agenda: As self-sponsored magic, this power lacks an agenda. Compels from its debt generally involve brutal headaches or one's magic going haywire.
Evocation: Unlimited Blade Works Evocations take the the form of spectral swords that appear from nowhere.
Thaumaturgy: Unlimited Blade Works rituals can be used to conjure weapons, including Item of Power weapons. The complexity required to create an Item of Power is determined by the GM.
Evothaum: Unlimited Blade Works allows its user to conjure weapons with Evocation's speed and methods.
Extra Benefits: All Unlimited Blade Works spells get two free shifts of duration. Spells with no duration, like Evocation attacks, leave behind conjured weapons that last for two exchanges. (The number of weapons left behind is up to the caster.)
You mean the Refresh rebate for having other casting Powers?
It should still be there. I just didn't bother to mention it because I kinda take it for granted. Maybe not wise on my part, I dunno.
Clearly there's something wrong with the wording if it causes this much confusion.
How does this plan for making it clearer sound?
-Make Item Limitation into a separate Power that requires (and modifies) Limitation. Then split it up into multiple trappings, to make it easier to understand.
-Split the clarifying text from Limitation into a separate trapping so that it doesn't interfere with comprehension of the main effect.
-Rewrite the entries of the rebate value list so that just reading them provides a decent summary of the Power.
-Add examples.
My theory is that people are just getting overwhelmed by the text-block. They see a big chunk of text and their eyes glaze over a bit. They then glance over it quickly instead of reading closely, leading to confusion.
These changes are intended to make the amount of text less overwhelming and to make it easier to understand the Power without reading it carefully.
So, do you think that'll work?
Here is the changes I would make to Unlimited Blade Works which would include the powers sponsor (Alya) and agenda from the visual novel.
Reality Marble (Unlimited Blade Works) [-4]
Description: With the help of a powerful force you can project your soul upon the world.
Sponsor: Alya /Gaia/ the World Spirit
Agenda: This power is sponsored by the World Spirit in exchange for an Eternity as a spiritual guard dog after death. It's agenda is the protection of the world as a whole no matter the cost on an individual level.
Okay, here's Reality Marble 2.
REALITY MARBLE [-1]
Description: You can travel to a magical sub-universe of your own creation and drag other people with you.
Note: Many characters are more powerful inside their Reality Marble than they are outside of it. Such characters should attach an appropriate version of the Limitation Power to whatever Powers they have while inside the Marble.
Skills affected: Conviction, others.
Effects:
Personal Universe. You have a personal universe called a Reality Marble. Design it when you take this Power. You may give it an Aspect of your choice, and as long as it has at least one zone you may give it any number of zones you want and arrange them as you please. You must designate one zone as the "entry zone" which characters arrive in when you use this Power. Your Reality Marble cannot be inhabited, and its design cannot include anything that gives you a significant advantage.
Reality Marble. As an action, you may spend a Fate Point to enter your Reality Marble. If you wish to bring other people with you, you may roll your Conviction skill. Then every other character in your zone is forced to enter your Reality Marble with you unless they beat your roll with a defense roll using Conviction or Athletics. People drawn into the Marble remain there until you decide to send everyone back or lose consciousness. You can't send people back one by one; it's all or nothing. And you can't keep people longer than the time indicated by adding your Conviction roll to "half a minute" on the time chart.
Different Rules [-varies]. Your Reality Marble has a special rule. Negotiate the effects and costs of this upgrade with your GM. You can only purchase this upgrade once. Here are some examples of possible special rules, with appropriate costs:
[-1] Peaceful World. Inside your Marble, all attempts at physical violence face a block with strength equal to your Conviction. In addition, all characters in your Marble have armour 4 against all physical attacks.
[-1] Random Entry. Instead of entering the Marble through the entry zone, characters are randomly scattered among the zones of the Marble. If the Marble is large enough, this may prevent them from seeing each other when they enter.
[-1] Clinging Marsh. The soft and sticky ground of the Marble imposes a border value of 1 on every zone.
[-1] Heavy Gravity. Might restricts all physical skills inside the Marble.
[-2] Anti-Technology Field. Anything rated 8 or lower on the hexing table fails to function inside the Marble.
[-2] Killing Heat. Everyone faces an accuracy 6 weapon 2 attack against their Endurance each exchange from the extreme heat of the Marble.
[-2] King Of The Hill. You enter your Marble in a different zone than everyone else. A zone border equal to your Conviction blocks entry to your zone, and its fortifications add 3 to whatever armour value its occupants have against attacks coming from outside of it.
[-3] Ocean Depths. The entire Marble is underwater.
PS: Not totally confident in the balance of those rules. Most of the costs are guesses.
Here is the changes I would make to Unlimited Blade Works which would include the powers sponsor (Alya) and agenda from the visual novel.
Reality Marble (Unlimited Blade Works) [-4]
Description: With the help of a powerful force you can project your soul upon the world.
Sponsor: Alya /Gaia/ the World Spirit
Agenda: This power is sponsored by the World Spirit in exchange for an Eternity as a spiritual guard dog after death. It's agenda is the protection of the world as a whole no matter the cost on an individual level.
Just a random thought (and I'm late to the game here), but wouldn't the baseline of Reality Marble be at a -2 instead of a -1? I figured the -1 for Demesne, with another -1 for an "attack" for force everyone into it. I only ask this since we've seen a few Reality Marbles in the series (I can name two, three if you count the Gate of Babylon), and they all seem to work the same way: bring someone into a world of your design (i.e. Demesne) and have the Home Turf advantage.The trade off is that you can't alter the reality marble during a conflict and so you sacrifice all the home field turf in favor of being able to drag people in, for the -1 cost. Then you can upgrade it for home field turf aspects for additional cost. That's my thinking on it.
As for the powers of the Marble, I'm personally at a tossup between buying them as set powers like you have posted, have a collection of Scene Aspects (theoretically an unlimited number since the Demesne allows you to create Aspects), or even some combination thereof. I'm not too keen on some of the costs, or even a better balancing act. Perhaps we should try to scale some of the Reality Marbles of a few of the characters we have seen and determine it as we go?
Demesne might be narratively similar to Reality Marble, but mechanically they have almost nothing in common.
You could add similarities, but by default they're not there so it's not really possible to use Demesne as a reference for how much Reality Marble should cost.
I have to disagree with that. A Demesne is a location created by an entity/spirit as a home turf, so to speak, where they have a great deal of control. They can still get beaten there (as we see with Agatha Hagglethorn and Dresden in his own dream), but they have a lot of advantages.
A Reality Marble (at least in the cases of Ionioi Hetairoi and Unlimited Blade Works) is essentially a location created by the entity where they hold a great deal of power, an advantage, and unlock their true potential. We do have some exceptions (Emiya Kiritsugu has a Reality Marble inside of him to alter his body by way of heartbeat and general speed, but that can be Biomancy and Time-like magic)
The similarities are:
Home Turf (entity has a great deal of power there)
It is difficult to escape (destroy it, destroy the entity, or escape through another supernatural means)
It takes the form of whatever the entity wants when it is first created (Agatha has old Chicago, for example, while Emiya has the vast desert with swords).
The biggest differences I see are:
Victims (and allies) are dragged within the Reality Marble, often against their own will, while a Demesne normally has to be entered.
The entity usually has a sole purpose for the Marble, specifically to unlock a special power (Gate of Babylon and Unlimited Blade Works act as a super armory, Ionioi Hetairoi has the army, etc)
With that in mind, I still think they are mechanically close, thus why I commented on it being -2: -1 for the Demesne-like location, and another -1 to make an "attack" (or simply be the effect) to bring others in. From there, I think designing a collection of powers, or a single power, to be utilized within the marble would be fitting, but at a discounted price (very much like Human Form, as it can only be utilized within the Marble).
In the case with Emiya's Unlimited Blade Works, I think it would be the -2 for the Reality Marble (using the above logic), followed by either a collection of points in Refinement (to denote the increase in his magical power or just the number of weapons; Enchanted Items, perhaps?), some increased physical traits, or even a custom, but fitting, power set he would acquire, then grant a discount due to the limitation of only being active within the marble.
Again, my two cents.
By default, you are no stronger within your Marble than you are outside of it.
Demesne gives you a place in the world where you are incredibly powerful.
Reality Marble lets you move yourself and others into a place outside of the universe.
Those are very different effects.
Those are some great thoughts on powers for the Blade Works but yeah, like Sanct said, it's different from a Demesne because the reworking says you have no benefits with the base Reality Marble power. You simple have that battle ground you can bring others too. For those home turf aspects you have to buy those when you first take the power to get their benefit, otherwise it doesn't affect combat much at all in many situations.
Depends on your definition of "stronger." Gaining a ridiculously powerful ability like an army and claiming your own battleground could make one incredibly strong. Perhaps not directly physically strong (unless reality bends to their whim, which we won't get into), but still "stronger" all the same.
To-may-to, to-mah-to. Again, the biggest difference seems to be the way in (and who you drag with you) and the advantages granted to the creator (which could be the aforementioned powers or the ability to make location Aspects with realtive ease as per Demesne).
But isn't the ability to create your own battleground (with related aspects) and dragging others into the mix just, theoretically, a ramped up version of Demesne. I mean, yeah, removing "Home Turf" as a power is one thing, but getting a location of your choosing AND trapping others there seems a bit better than a simple -1.
Can't comment on the source material except to point out that you should judge the Power based on what it does in DFRPG, not by what it does in the source material.
Well, if you're changing the Power it might well be appropriate to change its cost.
But this change is flawed.
First of all, you should limit Marble design a bit more. So that an Aquatic character doesn't instakill air breathers by making a Marble that's entirely underwater.
Secondly, you should specify how much stress the Marble has.
Thirdly, you shouldn't use those Aspect mechanics. Aspects open only to one character are bad juju, and giving a number of tags equal to the margin of success means that spending a tag on the roll gives back 2 tags. That`s a problem.
Fourthly, you should offer a scaling rebate for Marble-only Powers. Otherwise once you've got 2 Refresh of 'em there's no reason to limit further Powers to use within the Marble.
If were doing type moon powers we really should do Nero Chaos, obviously psychical immunity with a catch of conceptual weapon (only Swords of the Cross in the Dresden Verse). But how would you stat a man made up of monsters that could leap in and out of him at will. Multiple creatures with PI or one creature using a weird array of powers.I'm just doing the ones specific to my game, we're not really just doing Type-Moon stuff just for the sake of it. I also am not at all familiar with Nero Chaos outside of hearing about him.
If were doing type moon powers we really should do Nero Chaos, obviously psychical immunity with a catch of conceptual weapon (only Swords of the Cross in the Dresden Verse). But how would you stat a man made up of monsters that could leap in and out of him at will. Multiple creatures with PI or one creature using a weird array of powers.
I'm just doing the ones specific to my game, we're not really just doing Type-Moon stuff just for the sake of it. I also am not at all familiar with Nero Chaos outside of hearing about him.
Determining the stress of the Marble is something that may need more work to consider. In the source material, it takes a special kind of attack to destroy it (the equivalent of a powerful Evocation or a powerful Item of Power), which is why I even mentioned it. I wonder if it should remain in place, or if it should
The concept of the Aspects was in one part due to introducing some elements of Fate Core (the multiple free tags; MoS may be OP, but I think bigger success should mean more potential tags), and one part trying to emulate the Marble without requiring an point expenditure for each minor touch. For example, the Overwhelming Odds or the Memory Suppression aren't used against the creator, as said odds are a personal army and the suppression is a spell effect against invaders.
As for the rebate, that is where I hit the wall. I set the 2 Refresh as a baseline cost to create a Marble without adding extra powers/finishing moves. I am not too certain as to how to scale the number of points for such a limitation of additional powers; it can only be used when the Marble is active, but it can theoretically be activated at any time. The activation requires a cost and has a limited amount of time, and it is possible to overcome the requirement with the right knowledge and equipment.
It is a concern. If you've got 18 Refresh of Powers attached to a 9-point Limitation, your character is probably worryingly specialised.
But for what it's worth, Limitation generally gives a lower rebate than The Catch when attached to a normal amount of Refresh.
Should what?
Getting multiple tags for a good roll is just fine. But getting a tag for every shift introduces perverse incentives.
Invoking Aspects for effect to represent Powers can work, but it's not reliable.
Have you seen the Limitation Power?
It could handle the rebate just fine.
Basically, the Marble can be destroyed, so I'd like to see some way a player can overcome it. Of course, if I can't come up with a mechanic way of doing things, then I'd be tempted to just leave it with a limited time period.
Conversely, I could simply set the stress level to the user's Mental Stress, or even have it tied to said stress track (emphasizing the "extensions" via Mental Stress finally running out). Again, not certain, thus why I ask all of you here on the board.
True. IIRC, Core has it at a margin of success of three (but it could be four). Perhaps use that as our baseline?
It all depends on the power, but I can see your point. Would you agree that some Marbles would work better with Aspects (such as the multiple swords in Unlimited Blade Works), while others would require special powers purchased?
I read the power after you posted it, and while it could work, I'm not certain how often the limitation would come in. In theory, with this power as I've written it, has the limitation of Fate Points and Mental Stress (optional unless I link it to the user). While a character may be a bit "hungry" for an FP, they can easily horde one until they need this power each game and can really turn the table around.
So, that being said, where do you think the rebate should lie? I'm thinking it might be sitting around the 1/4 rebate as it can get in the way often, but since it can possibly be every session, you could argue the 1/2. Thoughts?
Maybe you could give the marble a pretty hefty armour rating. Then when it takes any stress it is instantly destroyed unless the creator chooses to take that stress for it (as mental stress, of course).
Sure. As long as it isn't 1.
Yes, it does depend on the effect.
The thing I try to keep in mind is that Powers have defined effects and Aspects don't. So if the effect is something clear and consistent it should be a Power, if it's vague and variable it should be an Aspect.
I'd usually give 1/2, since successfully using a Reality Marble every time a Power would be useful is kind of a tall order. Situations where the Limitation matters ought to be common.
But Limitation's value varies a lot, so I can't say much for sure.
That doesn't sound like a bad idea. The real question is: how "hefty" are we thinking here? Go with an Armor Rating equal to a skill (Discipline or Conviction, for example), or a set, already defined number (let's say a 4-5 to show that it takes something big to hit it)?
Now, if it the armor is overcome, with your idea of mental stress, would the overflow simply go to the user's Mental Stress if they wish to keep it up (allowing for Consequences like "Straining Against Reality" to be used)?
Also, do you think there should be an Aspect tied to the Marble that has to be tagged/invoked in order to make the attack, or require the attack have trappings to target immaterial/mental/"reality structures"? Not certain if that would reduce the need of armor or not. Just thinking out loud, here.
Hrmmm...perhaps we can keep the Aspects there as one part power emulation and one part preferred terrain? This way, if we get something that CAN be variable (how terrain can be used, weapons on hand at that time, etc) but based on situation, but it CAN fit for some of the powers (again, aforementioned weaponry).
Thoughts?
Huh. Wasn't expecting this thread to get resourced. I suppose it deserves it, but having two custom Power threads kinda offends my sensibilities.
Well, it's my fault really. This was inevitable once I started treating this thread less as a place to revise the list and more as a place to work on custom Powers.
I think either could work.
I dunno. Depends on how it works in the story you're trying to emulate.
Sure. I mean, reality marbles should definitely have Aspects.
I don't know, while the flat strength 5 veil is great in lower refresh games, that's still 3 refresh compared to Glamours' 2. In a higher refresh game, with Deceit or Discipline capped Glamours does seem to be more useful.
I'd really appreciate a bit more feedback on the Limitation rewrite. It was a major effort and I'm not at all confident in the result.This looks like a ton of work, and fairly well put together. That said, I don't think the write-up is really a power. Add in some more specifics on what refresh the different limitation levels are worth and this would be a worthy table for figuring out Catch values and for creating powered down versions of other powers.
It's hard to assess the clarity of your own writing, you know?
Add in some more specifics on what refresh the different limitation levels are worth...
Then as long as you do your best, I'm open to a Benevolent Custom Power List Dictatorship.
Evothaum [-1] Your mastery of whatevermancy has allowed you to use it far faster than most others. Gain the ability to use whatevermancy at Evocation's methods and speeds, as described in the Sponsored Magic sections (YS Page 288).
Feedback would be welcome, especially if it includes a better name for Super Math.
do you think poly-math could be an upgrade to Numerical Prodigy
perhaps let it encompass kinetics (more specifically the study of how people move) with higher bonuses for a particular field of
mathematics kinda like a magical refinement. further bonus could be advanced probability manipulation....
just some starter thoughts for an intelligent (n)pc it would be awesome to fight a True Mastermind with math related combat
skills, any thoughts ser
So the choice of when the stress will come into effect is made when the attack hits?
There's a more specific reason for Ranged Weaponry's upgrade, though. There's a custom Power called Long Reach, which costs 1 Refresh and lets you do everything from a zone away. It's generally regarded as weak, but pairing it with Claws is clearly superior to Breath Weapon. I prefer to avoid bad comparisons like that, so I increased the range of Ranged Weaponry.
PS: Breath Weapon may or may not be able to make spray attacks.
Can you teleport other willing subjects? Can you teleport unwilling targets?
I'm not fond of how this power interacts with a grapple either.
My suggestions:
- I think a grapple should interfere with the teleport. If they fail to beat the grapple, they shouldn't still teleport. They should stay put. I think it's bonus enough to allow a sprint action or supplemental move while in a grapple since that's normally not allowed.
#the grappling
It just seems that even if the grappler has the upper hand he's at a disadvantage even when he succeeds. And it's a good way to weaponize the power. My first thought was to pair this ability with Physical Immunity Falling Damage and teleport people in the air.
I'd just say that if the grappler succeeds the teleporter is still trapped, if the grappler fails, the teleporter can do a sprint action. Maybe I'm just being paranoid about it being abused :P
Falling damage is covered in Raw. It's 5 stress for every 10 feet of falling. Your athletics result gives you armour against the damage.
Alright, you make a good argument. I guess we should probably change the teleporting grapple rules.
Incidentally, it occurs to me that teleporting people against their will could be limited to the normal forced movement allowed with grapples. You can already move people around as a supplemental action if you grapple them, and moving someone with Teleportation is no more abusable than moving them with Wings.
But...
Those rules are bad. Way too lethal. I'd rather not use them.
Falling damage is a non-issue in most games, but in games where someone is playing a flying or teleporting grappler it could become quite important.
EDIT: I should mention, I'm a little reluctant to change Teleportation without consulting ways and means. The power was his idea originally, after all. But he hasn't been around for a while, so...I dunno what we should do about that.
Maybe just attach an addendum to the power until he's approved it?
#falling damage
I propose using athletics as an attack instead of using falling damage. The teleporters athletics vs the defenders athletics to resist. Weapon 0 to represent the falling damage.
I don't know how that would affect a teleporter who isn't immune to falling damage. Maybe just make them defend against their own attack?
Maybe an additional upgrade: weaponized teleportation. It can represent falling damage or it could represent having the person appear half-way through an object etc...
It requires you to be in a grapple or to have instigated a grapple.
Maybe just attach an addendum to the power until he's approved it?
I propose using athletics as an attack instead of using falling damage. The teleporters athletics vs the defenders athletics to resist. Weapon 0 to represent the falling damage.
TELEPORTATION [-2]
Description: You can teleport from one space to another. Very convenient.
Skills Affected: Athletics.
Effects:
Unfettered Movement.
- You may ignore all zone borders and all penalties or blocks that would normally impede your movement, unless those blocks are specifically designed to block teleportation. You may also move freely in three dimensions, though this Power does not prevent you from falling to the ground.
- If you are being grappled or otherwise grabbed you may make a supplemental move or Sprint action even though a grapple does not normally allow it. The character holding onto you must roll Might against your movement roll. If they succeed they can choose to come with you or to disrupt the teleport attempt; if they fail, their grasp is broken and you may perform your move action as if there was no block or borders, as normal.
- You may teleport with another willing subject but if the result of the teleport would cause injury(stress or consequences, drowning, falling) to the passenger, the teleport fails completely and your action is lost.
Long-Distance Teleportation [-1].
(Requires Rapid Teleportation) You may teleport to any place in the world given a few minutes. At the GM's discretion, this effect may be limited by the speed of light.
Weaponized Teleportation:[-1] Range: touch
You may use your teleportation ability to damage and/or transport unwilling targets. Narratively, this can be teleporting high and dropping them, teleporting them half-way through an object or teleporting them into another person. Mechanically, this is an attack using your Athletics as an attack.
This is a Weapon 0 attack and is defended against using Athletics. If you succeed, you may choose how many shifts go towards damage and how many go towards movement. For instance, if you succeed by 5 shifts, you may transport someone 2 zones and do 3 stress. You may choose whether or not you teleport with the victim. You may make spray attacks with this ability to represent teleporting people into others. Narratively, you may have to dodge your own attack (ex: if you choose to teleport yourself and a victim into the air but you, yourself, cannot fly.) Note: Teleporting someone could have side-effects, beyond the attack, in subsequent rounds (teleporting them into a zone that has no air, or under water or into a burning building).
Mass Teleport [-1]
You may teleport a number of willing targets up to your Athletics skill plus bonuses (Including the +4 bonus from Rapid Teleportaion)
Weaponized teleportation:
- I'm not sure if it's too powerful to let it stack with the +4 from Rapid Teleport. But it is a weapon 0 attack, so maybe it's o.k
- I'm not sure if it's balanced to let the teleporter choose whether or not he teleports with the defender.
Keep in mind that each level represents
what a character can lift by expending all
of his effort; he isn’t really going to be able to
move much more than a zone carrying something
that’s equal to his base Might. A character
can carry something two levels below his Might
for a short distance (allowing him to make a
sprint roll restricted by Might, with the item’s
difficulty as a border value). He can carry something
four levels below his Might with no real
penalty or can toss it a distance of one zone.
Something six levels below his Might could be
used as a thrown weapon
Hard To Hold. If you are being grappled you may make a supplemental move or Sprint action even though a grapple does not normally allow it. Compare your movement roll (assume you rolled -4 when moving supplementally) to the grapple strength. If it's lower your opponent can choose to come with you or to disrupt the teleport attempt; otherwise their grasp is broken and you may move as if there was no block or borders, as normal.Why a -4 instead of the normal -1 for the supplemental movement when grappled?
You can't use a supplemental action to cross a zone border because it requires a roll (or that's how I interpret RAW). That being said, if you have a Fantastic Athletics, you don't really need to roll to go over a 1 shift border (since even rolling a -4 would be a success).
Or, in the case of the teleporting guy, would it be -4 to escape, then -1 to attack? or -4 to both actions? I'm wondering if breaking a grapple as a supplemental is too strong and we just limit it to sprinting.
Yeah, exactly.
-1 to attack, no penalty to escape. But you assume the worst possible roll when escaping supplementally. This reduces the power of a supplemental escape and cuts down on the number of rolls you have to make.
Would it be better if I rephrased the Power to say "you can move supplementally out of a grapple if and only if you could have escaped given the worst possible roll"?
Not common at all. But some especially careful wizards might make wards against teleportation.
I'd say that a ward can normally either stop normal movement or teleportation, and a surcharge of 2 complexity would let it stop both.
Dunno. I thought "generic" wards blocked anything it wasn't keyed to. Like "block everyone except me". Which would include someone trying to teleport through.
Impossible Jumps. Add four to your Athletics skill when using it to jump.
Honestly, to me it looks like the Power isn't written to accommodate that. Maybe we should add some terminology from that jumping stunt, I think it's called Mighty Leap. Reduce the difficulty of jump rolls rather than boosting the Athletics skill.Yeah, that's a good idea. Speed already reduces penalties, but that's just for stealth.
It would also stop people from using that +4 bonus on maneuvers, which seems like a good thing to me.This was the first thing I thought of when looking at the power, so I resolved that I would never use the bonus for maneuvers. Not everyone will do that, though. So, reducing the border instead of a bonus to skill is a good idea.