Rasmussen/Uriel

Uriel?   I think you meant Ursiel. Hey it happens like writing White Court when I meant White Council...

But the Fallen can probably do an awful lot to break someone's mind, if not specifically prohibited by their bargain... remember, only their Shadows are bound by (as Harry puts it) "My mind, my rules."  Harry's various mental "in a cage" tricks he used on Lash would just get laughed-at by Lasciel.

The KotC's duty is to redeem those souls who can be redeemed; I doubt that applied to Rasmussen.

But so long as the mortal retains Free Will... they can always change their mind.
And I expect a whole new suite of Angelic protections activate, if and when they so decide.

I have to go back and reread the passage, but the image I remember is Harry saw in the soul gaze Rasmussen being crucified and powerless to fight back.
I don't know if it is so much break the host's mind is broken so much as brainwashed, though they may be close to being the same thing.  If I remember correctly Nic takes great care to match the coin to the prospective host.  He chose Lasciel for Harry because of his sexual insecurities at least in part.  And when the Shadow became active in his head the result was Sheila. Harry was totally fooled by it, couldn't believe his luck until Butters pointed out that there was no one there.  I also think they tailor their pitch to the host, Lasciel knew Harry wouldn't allow her to dominate him, so her pitch was a "partnership" much like Nic and Andriel supposedly have.  I imagine that was the same pitch Marcone got, and he bought it. I also think that accidental soul gaze he had with Rasmussen reinforced Harry's will not to cooperate with Lasciel, he wasn't buying what she was selling.. Though he did use her and it affected him more than he knew until Murphy set him straight.

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he murders a man while disguised as a monk, he does so knowing he's setting the man up as an act of self defense. That's premeditated murder. We can go through the precise legal details... Also he poisoned a few people iirc.
*He had on body armor fyi, he wasn't defending anything.. not a murderer is in fact, my opinion. But not the truth.

You are entitled to your opinion and I mine...

no. And I can cite 1200 page epic as my source material.

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Edmund Dantes lies, kills, maims and otherwise enacts fiery vengeance upon those that wronged him and his... And he flinches every single time.  He breaks down in tears and apologizes outright to some before telling them if he ever sees them he'll end them outright next time and leave country. He feels active regret. BUT, it never once actually stops him.🤷‍♂️ Flinching isn't the disqualifier unfortunately. Active willpower (which contains things like ability means and necessity, not just motive)is the qualifier. And for every good man who can be pushed too far, there's 9 too cowardly to act on their motives.

  Personal opinion, that's a killer, not a murderer, interesting, while the quote you sighted talks a lot about killing, it doesn't call him murderer.

No, I'm not going to find it (nor will you, I presume).
But a team of investigating wizards?
Looking into the death of "one of their own" (which Justin likely was seen as, until they realized he really had turned to Black Magic)?
Investigating Black Magic, and an increasingly-bizarre story?
I don't think that kind of "buried" (that a 16-year-old kid in a panic could manage) is going to hide something from them, no.  Particularly not if that "something" was human remains!
 

I work and have worked cadaver dogs.. Human remains buried isn't that easy to find, even by a four legged expert with a lot better sniffing capacity than you, me, or the Wardens.  If Justin died in the fire and his body burnt, yes, there would be charred remains, on the surface.. Even in a commercial cremation done by a funeral home, some charred bone remains, that remainder is crushed in a machine, then the family receives the fine remaining ash... After finding Justin's charred bones, I seriously doubt unless they knew before hand that somewhere a human skull was buried in the ashes, that the Wardens would be digging around to find one.

Bob *is* magic; and also (q.v. "skull") is human remains.  I don't much see the wardens (using forensic magic to figure out what happened, to investigate Black Magic, Law-breaking, & murder) as somehow overlooking Bob... that includes being buried, up to the normal depth one would dig for a grave.  That would be SOP for wardens investigating this sort of thing.

Would it? Especially at that point they had no evidence that Justin was killing anyone.. Why would he be burying bodies in his basement if the house had a basement? At that point most thought Justin was a retired Warden and his adopted son murdered him with Black magic... No, unless they had a heads up, the Wardens wouldn't be looking for a skull.  Hey, not saying Harry was overly cunning when he buried the skull, most likely it was done in panic.. But he got lucky once again, in the retrieval of Justin's body, and the capture of his accused murderer, case closed. So in the chaos of the burned ruins of the house, a tiny bit of disturbed ashes could easily be missed by the Wardens who had no clue that Justin had the skull in the first place.

It's actually remarkably cheap & easy to build a circle.  Once Harry was on his own, he could have done very quickly.

Yes, absolutely:  books -- particularly rarities -- are expensive!  But Harry was avoiding the kinds of extreme rarities that would have been "black magic," seeking out relatively-common "mainstream" WhiteCouncil fare; not priced like Barnes&Noble would price a 10-year-old Dresden Files novel... but also not costing arm nor leg!

Depends on how poor you are, to some of us twenty or thirty bucks is a small fortune! I get the impression that Harry was living pretty hand to mouth..

It's actually remarkably cheap & easy to build a circle.  Once Harry was on his own, he could have done very quickly.

Is it?  If Fool Moon taught us anything, it is that the kind of circle needed to hold back really nasty things is just a wee bit more complicated.. The circle that Harry had in his lab was just barely good enough, and wouldn't have held a Loop.  It was only later when he got better financed after he became a Warden that he was able to improve the circle.  Yeah, maybe you can summon anything with a makeshift circle, but holding it is another matter.. Besides that, there is no evidence that 16 year old Harry summoned anything with the possible exception of Lea.

At Hog Wallow...
Well, we know there was some time spent with a telescope!  ;-)
I can't cite the passage, but I'm pretty sure there were some evenings spent talking over campfires.
And I think Eb probably let him enjoy the hills & forests around the farm, all on his own.

Some time maybe.. Telescopes and hiking aren't really going to cut if with a horny angry teenager are they? I think you are confusing the campfires with the dream scene with Malcolm.. Don't remember any reference to Harry and Eb roasting marshmallows around an open fire.

But also, YES to the reading!  It's just that I suspect it was mostly fiction.  And what wasn't fiction was more about wizard-ethics, Laws of Magic, and the various other topics Justin had specifically avoided in his "Warlock4U4me" study-program.  I reiterate my main thesis, here:  Harry already stood convicted of murder-by-magic (and the victim a solid combat-veteran, no mediocre foe).  More magical power was not what Harry needed, and I seriously doubt it's what McCoy taught (nor allowed much self-teaching thereof).

However reading about the Fae Courts, how they work, how the Fae think isn't more magical teaching is it? Eb may not have allowed self teaching when Harry lived with him, but once he was on his own, Harry did do a lot of self teaching with the help of his Google, Bob..

Now... if Harry had come clean to Ebenezer about having made a deal with Lea for power to rescue Elaine, and explained how he needed to study Faerie lore & bargains, Winterfae, the Leanansidhe to mitigate his risks and hopefully find a way to escape... then yes, I think Eb would have allowed that specific topic (and even assisted with research & advice)...

If he knew or didn't know, what harm would there have been in Harry learning about the Nevernever?  It is a world wizards have to deal with isn't it?  Even the White Council has treaties and things of that nature.. So instead of forbidden, I'd think it would be a topic encouraged by Eb for Harry to study.

But Harry was under the Doom of Damocles with McCoy his executioner, so I'm dubious that he'd have admitted to making supernatural bargains for M0AR POW3RZ... not even bargains made in a "good cause" (which is really just a waystop on the Road Paved With Good Intentions).

However Harry didn't get any of that for his bargain.  According to Jim, all Harry got from her was a boost of confidence.. Eb soul gazed Harry remember, so he'd be very aware...  Apparently it was a special exception to the Doom, because as stated, if a wizard takes an apprentice who is under the Doom, and the apprentice slips up and does black magic, both of them lose their heads under the Doom!  As explained by the Merlin to Harry in Proven Guilty, one of the reasons why so few wizards are willing to try to rehab a young warlock, to risky to their own heads.. So Eb was under orders to execute Harry if he screwed up, but he was under his care, so he should have lost his head as well as per the Doom.. There is more to that story I believe.

That was specifically regarding whether they knew how to ward themselves, mentally.  You had alleged it was important that they do so; and while I don't disagree with the sentiment, I argue that both the need for mental wards, and the necessary training to do so, were intentionally kept away from them by Justin.  Also that -- at that stage (young lovers having already soulgazed) -- such warding wasn't as necessary as many other contexts:  a "spell" (rather then a raw ability) means that accidental mental contact was unlikely.

Did they even know that mental wards were even possible? Young lovers discover sex and enjoy having it, but that doesn't mean they are aware that there can be consequences.. In most cases all they know is that it feels good and are shocked to find out after the fact, that unwanted pregnancy and TDs can also result from it.

No; Harry outmaneuvered the Merlin (made him look bad) in a political moment (and it's worth noting that Harry still "tactically lost" that moment because the Merlin still carried enough proxies to convict & execute Molly; it was only Harry relying upon literal divine providence (and a touch of Rashid's future-awareness, maybe) that saved Molly at the last instant).

That's a very, very different sort of thing than throwing down (in likely battle against) the many/most/all of the Senior Council, which is where Rashid was later saying it was "not yet Harry's time."

However you want to categorize it, Harry still stood up to the Merlin, and the younger members of the Council were listening and agreeing.  Yes, the Merlin had the proxies, but Harry still had the courage and more importantly the intellect to spar with him on a moral level as well.

Not yet his time, implies that it won't be a small thing.. Everything will be on the line..

No; I'm saying he's more than just "capable" of doing it.

If he thought it needed doing, he'd be entirely willing, and would not flinch.

(I don't think he did; but I think it's intriguingly-possible)

I guess I define capable differently than you do... To me if you are capable of doing it, you are also willing to do it and not flinch.. However none of that says that it would be smart to do it.  Odin isn't a stupid god.

I'm confused...  While I have no serious disagreement with any of these replies, none of them seem to actually be to the point of their respective topics or sub-threads; or they seem to be conflating old circumstances with new; or otherwise just not really relevant.

I'm not confused, or maybe I am, but I believe the point you were trying to make is that if he knew about it, Justin wouldn't care if Elaine and Harry experimented with mind to mind comminication. Then you added;

Honestly, I doubt a couple of horny young idealistic teens cared that much about mental privacy, nor worried much about warding-out unwanted visits.

My response was to look at the bigger picture.. No, two horny young people as you put it wouldn't care.. For one thing I doubt Justin taught them much about the Laws of Magic, second, and more importantly they didn't see the harm.. The bigger picture analogy is Molly, who discovered her talent, knew nothing about the Laws of Magic, thought she could help her friends by using her talent, seeing no harm in it, but in fact did great harm.. Which brings us to the bigger problem of talented kids finding they have talent, not aware that there are real rules, and even if they did know, blow them off because they didn't see the harm it it.. Or didn't care for various reasons, which puts them on a slippery slope to warlockhood.  So maybe that is the point, Justin wasn't trying to raise a couple of legit wizards, he was trying to raise a couple of warlock enforcers.

I doubt Harry had access to more than a tiny fraction of the Blackstaff's library!

Harry already told us onscreen that Eb didn't teach much magic as-such; I presume the same is true of Faerie-lore, or other supernatural lores.

So, no:  I presume Harry did not do very much with Eb's library.  Not nothing; but not very much.

Just curious, have you ever lived miles out of town where your nearest neighbor is a mile away, and anyone your age that might become a friend is even further away?  No television, maybe radio, Harry got a GED, so he wasn't even enrolled in the local high school.  At sixteen, he'd still have a year or two of high school left, so no opportunity to make friends his own age.. I doubt that he just got up at dawn, worked the back forty, ate dinner and went to bed a dusk! Drive into town perhaps and maybe go to the local Dairy Queen, he was too young to go to a bar.. Now the local Dairy Queen might be a hang out for other kids his age, but would they willingly accept an outsider? One most likely very different from themselves.. The answer is, no, they wouldn't.  We've often talked of Harry's lack of people skills, sex life, etc.. This where it comes from, as a child on the road with Malcolm, through his troubled adolescence he was isolated from other kids and never developed people skills. However he did develop a love for fast food.  So what was there for him to do in the evenings, aside from masturbating, but reading?

The questions here are:  where and why (and maybe how) did Harry hide Bob?
I don't believe Harry knew about the WC (or their wardens).
So, why did he hide the skull?  Why not keep it close at hand?
Where did he hide it?  Somewhere on Justin's property?  Somewhere nearby, i.e. when he first stopped running in fear?
How did he hide it, that could survive investigating wardens and rando-curious folk alike?

That is the question.  I remember a vague line about burying it in the ashes, but honestly I don't remember the context or if it was from the books,WOJ, or conjecture here.

I presume that Ebenezer, when he sent Harry out into the world as a "wizard of the White Council," would have set up his grandson with a decent library for a young wizard (although Ebenezer obviously didn't know about Bob!).

I'm sure it wasn't long before Harry wanted more books; but that he got them mostly from "Bock Ordered Books."  Dresden Wiki says that in Dead Beat ch.7, Bock had several volumes written by White Council members (not just Peabody's Die Lied der Erlking).

Books cost money, and money is the one thing Harry had very little of.. So I imagine he ordered few, and only the ones he absolutely needed to function as a wizard.

Harry got MOST of his magical training and plain knowledge from Justin DuMorne (Ebenezer trained other things).  Justin's training would have included include circles, summonings, etc.  I'd bet long odds that Justin trained Harry how to summon Chaunzaggoroth, and I bet that wasn't the only Name that Justin gave him, that Harry was better off not knowing!

Justin may have given him working knowledge of how to summon, but without access to a decent circle, it was just that, knowledge.  I seriously doubt that he'd teach him how to summon a demon and then not teach him that for those kinds of beings an ordinary chalk circle wasn't going to cut it.  I also doubt that Justin allowed him free access to his circle. Nor would Eb allowed him anywhere near any circle of that kind.

As I said above:  Harry already had the knowledge "to be a powerful wizard."

Ebenezer's job was to convey the rules and ethics, the Laws of Magic, the why's of those "pesky" rules.

The "new world" that Ebenezer opened for Harry is the world where his powers could be used for good, like Spidey's were; it was precisely that world that Justin had censored away from him.

More magic powers and abilities were the very last things on Ebenezer's agenda!

(and amusingly -- nobody taught Harry about conjuritis!  Justin didn't bother, and Ebenezer just presumed (from the overall "completeness" of Justin's teachings) that Harry had already been taught)

Harry was born a powerful wizard, that's the kind of talent he was born with, but he never got a proper education!  Justin was training up enforcers, they don't need to know about conjuritis as far he was concerned, and a lot of other things your average apprentice is taught if they have a decent master.  Eb made the mistake, maybe because he didn't know Justin's motives, thinking that Justin taught Harry what masters usually teach their apprentices.. He knew that Justin didn't teach ethics, but he missed the point that Justin also didn't teach a lot of other things.  Harry for the most part is self taught in a lot of aspects of magic and being a wizard, so there are gaps in his knowledge that should have been basic.

But don't forget:  he's also got about 1500 years' of experience to draw upon (he's likely the oldest wizard by far).  And he's been Gatekeeper for we-don't-know-how-long, but a long time.  We've seen him outmaneuver the Merlin, multiple times.  We can take it as a given that he's intellectually brilliant, a keen observer of mankind-in-general but especially his fellow wizards.

And a big protector of Harry lets not forget!  Yes, Eb argued for and took the Doom with young Harry.  How true was that really?  I mean he was also under orders to kill Harry if he went the least bit out of line... Then what? Suicide? However from Summer Knight on, the one who speaks up for Harry, not directly always, but brings up points that either redirects the Senior Council or stops them from taking votes that can hurt Harry is Rashid.

I got no sense from the scene with Rashid that he needed to go to his supernatural resources:  Harry, being... well, Harry -- and the White Council, being who they are -- can obviously be seen on a collision-course.  Rashid knows enough history to be sure what's coming; prophecy not required!

Except Harry had already taken on the Senior Council, namely the Merlin and won in Proven Guilty.  So he has confronted the Senior Council before.  I think Rashid is talking about the big kahuna, the BAT in the future..  A time when it will be a big deal unless at some point between now and then Harry is reinstated into the White Council.

If the skull were not explicitly hidden, the Wardens would have found it.  Even if it was hidden (somewhere onsite), there's a decent chance they'd have found it.  Investigating black magic is a core competence of the wardens; they may run heavy to assholes, but not to incompetence.

For starters, Bob isn't black magic, though when Harry hid the skull I don't think he had given him a name yet so there was still more "Evil Bob" or the Bob of his former masters than the Bob we know today.  So looking for black magic wouldn't have cut it.  No, I think the reason Wardens didn't find the skull is they had no idea that Justin had stolen it in the first place, they weren't looking for it.  If something is buried and you aren't looking for something specific, you aren't going to find it.

So far as I understand their spell, it's a spell -- you have to actually cast it -- not a general "mind reading" ability.  Also, it's specifically only stuff that gets verbalized in-mind, and seen visually; it doesn't read emotional-state, it doesn't probe memories, etc etc etc.

Still forbidden by the Laws of Magic, or can be seen as forbidden because it is too easily abused. Especially by the young and inexperienced who have yet to understand fully, limits.

Honestly, I doubt a couple of horny young idealistic teens cared that much about mental privacy, nor worried much about warding-out unwanted visits.

Thank you for making my point.  Molly is a prime example of an teenager brought up with good values but in her efforts to "help" her friends with their addiction she did great harm.. Or did it even occur to her when she did it, that she was doing great harm?  As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

OTOH, it's a simple enough spell, I'm sure each of them could easily ward it out at this point!

Could they?  If the contention that Elaine was enthralled is correct, then she lacked mental defenses didn't she.

I think if Harry had used Eb's library to do much "filling in" the gaps Justin left in his education, we'd have seen much less of Bob being the proverbial "talking head."  Think of some of the really basic stuff Harry learned on-screen... different kinds of werewolf; different kinds of vampire (I  think?  Not sure, here); Faerie Courts of Knight/Lady/Queen & Mothers; etc etc etc.

Why wouldn't Harry use both?  Yes, in the early books we find that Harry does use Bob as his personal Google, but that doesn't mean he didn't for the two or three years he lived in Eb's house take advantage of the knowledge available to him in Eb's library.  Harry wasn't using Bob at that time, I seem to remember that Bob remained buried until Harry retrieved him when he moved to Chicago.  At that point no, in Chicago Harry didn't have the means as a rule to acquire the books he wanted, but he did have Bob.  Which as Harry realizes as time goes on isn't a perfect source of knowledge.. While good at most basic things that Harry wanted to know, sometimes Bob's answers were flawed because of Bob's own fears, prejudices, and lack of understanding of how humans think. Not unlike the internet, yes, it is a great source of knowledge but can be misleading at times.

The average 16 year old (unless they're from a "gun culture" or a gang) likely doesn't really know how to kill people; 16-yo Harry Dresden probably knew multiple ways.  Harry also knew how to summon various spirits that could put his mind and even his soul in jeopardy.  As I said before:  I think Ebenezer felt that part of Harry's problems stemmed from him already knowing too much.  If Harry was going to be reading about magic & the supernatural, I think Eb likely curated it heavily towards when & why NOT to use magic, towards the risks and the downsides of magic.  I expect that Harry never even laid his eyes upon a great deal of Eb's library.  And when Harry opted to pick up any supernatural reference-book, I bet Eb took great pains to make sure he knew what Harry was looking-up!

It is possible that sixteen year old Harry could summon his godmother Lea.. Or she was keeping a close eye on him and just appeared to take advantage of the situation when he ran away from Justin.  However other than Lea, who if he could, did 16 year old Harry summon aside from her?
Why is it do you think, in many troubled parts of the world the "armies" of those doing the killing are often 16 year olds or younger?  Because of their youthful passions and their still not fully developed brains are vulnerable to stronger ones.   

It is more possible that a huge part of Harry's problems stemmed from Harry knowing too little about magic in general!  That is what was at the crux of Harry's debate at the beginning of Proven Guilty with the Merlin.  Kids discover they have talent, experiment with no guidance from master wizards, are sucked down the the slippery slope to warlockhood before you can say, "this kid has talent."   The only way to understand the how and the why of anything is through knowledge, not ignorance.  You forget that Eb did a soul gaze of young Harry, and while he did see a very powerful talent and an extremely angry kid, he didn't see a stupid one, or an evil one.. A huge part of Eb's task of rehabbing Harry and bringing him back from the brink was to open a new world to him, not censor it from him.  A world where it is a good thing to be a powerful wizard, a lot of good can be done, as long as rules and ethics are in place.

On the other hand, I think Eb likely stocked-up on a fair bit of simple enjoyable fiction!

LOL!  A fair bit about life and morals can be learned from simple enjoyable fiction!  Many of the books we are witnessing being banned today are indeed simple enjoyable fiction, many seen as classics even.. However they are feared by some because they just might provoke a young reader into thinking, something the powers that be, fear.

I think Rashid is just very very savvy.  He knows a conflict is coming between Harry and the WC (because he understands about the Outer Gates & Starborn &c) but that Harry isn't in a position to win (likely not even survive) such a conflict; so it is not yet Harry's time to engage that way.  No great prophecy, just a deep strategic and historical sense.

Yes, Rashid is savvy, however it is heavily hinted at in the books and commented on often enough here that he can also see into the future with that eye of his.  He could have meant it like you say, and that wouldn't be wrong.. However that can be expanded to mean that some point in the future Harry will indeed have that kind of power, be in a position to confront the Senior Council itself.. There are many members of the Council, and many wizards, but few have the talents or are powerful enough to take head on, the Senior Council. What do you think makes up most prophecy?  A prophet usually understands the present and future in a strategic and historical sense and say someone will come along with the skills needed to deal with it or not.. Oh I get they will jazz it up a bit, like "when the moon is eclipsed on the fifth day of the seventh month" kind of thing, which Rashid doesn't do, but that doesn't mean he cannot see into the future.

I don't think we have a clear statement about how fast the WC/Wardens responded... reasonably-fast, I presume!

I think the impression is pretty clear the Wardens responded before Harry ever had a chance to leave the scene of the crime. 

Harry (IIRC) knew nothing of the WC or the Wardens; that was info Justin kept from him.  Harry had no idea there would be any badass magical investigator/enforcers coming!  I assume he'd have run away out of very-simple survival:  he had no idea what sorts of magical fallout/disaster might occur with a fire burning down the lab of a powerful wizard, and he didn't want to learn the hard way!  But I think the Wardens would have picked up Harry pretty fast after checking-out Justin's place.

Did they have witnesses?  Did they have evidence?  Where would they even know to look? Now they may have been in the area coincidentally, and ergo swiftly picked up the kind of forbidden magic that Harry used to take down Justin.  Not too far away the discovered this scared kid who happened to be Harry..

We can be relatively-certain Harry took the skull, because the Wardens investigated and would almost-certainly have found it in the charred ruins... destroyed it if it was still there (or casually-hidden by a kid in a panic).

We can be absolutely certain that (if Harry took the skull), he then hid the skull somewhere:  the wardens would have confiscated & destroyed it, if Harry had it on his person (not to mention Ebenezer's reaction)!

I conclude that Harry -- for unknown reasons -- moved very-swiftly to do a very-good job of hiding the skull (or else he got very lucky).

Oh I think Harry got lucky because they weren't looking for the skull to begin with.

My memory is that Justin actually let Bob teach Harry, directly.  So Harry knew (in basic terms) that Bob would be a critical resource for a suddenly-masterless young apprentice-wizard.

Do you have a quote or the book, chapter etc?  My memory is different from yours on this and would like to go back and reread the passage.

No, my point is that the Raiths are -- so far as we can tell -- horrible, horrible people.

Is Thomas a horrible person?  Was his innocent little sister a horrible person? The Hunger demon may be horrible, but the hosts maybe not so much..

Thomas' survival is downright weird, in that household; Jim has dropped that clue, and I think it meaningful.  Lara seems to share Thomas' ability to actually Love.  What makes them special?  Why are they different from the others of their ilk?
 

Maybe they aren't?  True, the other ones we've seen don't seem very nice, but how many members of the White Court have we really gotten to know through the series? Too easy to make generalizations don't you think?

I think there's important stuff around this, that hasn't yet come out into plain sight.

I agree.