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Messages - Mira

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16
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 27, 2024, 09:53:30 PM »
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Harry the unreliable narrator with a very confusing backstory even without the constant shifts?

Is he?  Everyone says that yet outside of a few short stories he is the only narrator we've got. So is he a liar? Just stupid? Maybe senile when he wrote his story?  Unless you got an alternative story out there..
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Let's jump back to Star wars for the metaphor of chosen Orphan. Did luke know... Anything that was true? Leia what about Rey?
What has that to do with anything?  Harry is a starborn, he would be so whether he was an orphan or not.  As far as his names go as Harry explains back in Fool Moon, it isn't the names themselves that would give Chauncy power over him, it is giving him, his names..  Harry was careful even to change the inflection of how to say the names he did give him to try and prevent Chauncy from having power over him..  Didn't matter if his name was John Jinglehimer Smith, or Harry David Copperfield Dresden, it was giving his name or part of his name that gave Chauncy power over him and what he bargained for.
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I find it far more likely they named him together, as they were indeed together before her death 👀
So what if they did? Harry's name in of itself has no power, at least up to this point it hasn't shown itself to have power of any kind or protection.
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I find it fair less likely Malcolm named him unilaterally and just by happenstance gave him the extra protection of names in a verse where such things actually matter.(Something Harry mentioned in storm front, FM, GP, ECT)
Whether Malcolm did or didn't give him those names unilaterally doesn't matter.  The name, Harry, in of itself has no power or protection, nor David, nor Copperfield, nor Dresden, what gives power is that they are his names.
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Again:  do we know this?  Was he on-board with the "starborn" scheme?  I don't really count the scene in the dream (around the campfire), because it's evident that Malcolm was VERY clued-in at that point.
Oh I think he was more clued in than you think, at least the importance of the conception, even if he didn't fully understand.  This is hinted at both by Margaret herself during Harry's soul gaze with Thomas in Blood Rites and when Lash begins to tell him about his power over Outsiders in White Night.  It takes two to make a baby, and that's even more important in the case of a star born.

17
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 27, 2024, 04:21:04 PM »
We know who Harry was named after, but it's actually entirely a logical leap that it was Malcolm who named him at all.. Padme didn't survive child birth and she named her kids.
And since classically the third name itself is a direct result of the 'hidden name's convention', I find it highly unlikely he just happened to get two. Wasn't for bargaining, it's for it's original purposes, protection.

So are you saying that Jim stole the idea from Star Wars?  Even if he did, Harry was born before the prequels to the original Star Wars trilby came out, the first one 1999.  So yeah, possible, but at the same time unlikely.  Just as likely that Malcolm a vanilla human stage magician would name his son after a well known and I imagine admired stage magicians, Harry Houdini and David Copperfield.  In fact I believe Harry said that back in Storm Front.. Now Malcolm could have lied to him about that, but what would be the point.

18
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 26, 2024, 02:28:45 PM »

  I realize we are going far afield again, but I guess it is all related and there are so few of us now posting.
Anyway....
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The DF Wiki says so, too:
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    The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.

(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)

I just did go back to Chapter 27 of White Night, other than stating that Thomas was hungry and that he tries not to kill, nothing about what the DF Wiki sights.. However in Blood Rites there is, it talks about if Inari is in love she might be able to avoid that first feeding. Even if she cannot avoid it, if she and the young man love one another the Hunger Demon could be killed.
Blood Rites 164-165
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page 164, Thomas leaned up against the wall beside my mother's portrait.  He pushed his hair back from his face with one hand.  "She hasn't been taken by her Hunger yet," he said.  "Once she starts feeding it there's no going back.  She'll be like us for the rest of us.  My father is pushing her toward that point.  I want to stop him."
"Why?"
"Because if. . .if she's in love, that first time, it could kill her Hunger.  She'd be free.  I think she is mature enough to be capable of that love now. There's a young man she's all twitterpated about."
That indicates there is a choice if the would be White Court vamp knows before hand.  The reason why the set up for Inari's first feed to be on Harry, she isn't in love with him.. She'd kill him, be hooked.  Also note that timing is important, Thomas states that he thinks Inari is mature enough to experience true love.. So Raith has to set up his daughters before they have a chance to be in love.
page 165
 
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Thomas pressed his lips together for a moment and then said.  "If the kid loves her in return, then she could have a life.  She could be free of the kinds of things that---"  His voice broke.  He had to cough before he continued."Things like what happened to Justine.  Like what my father has done to my other sisters."
"What do you mean, done to them?"
"He establishes that he is their superior,  He overpowers them.  Pits his Hunger against theirs."
My stomach twisted.  "You mean he feeds on his own. . ." I couldn't finish the sentence.

So the above establishes a couple of things, 1] once the feeding begins, the would be vampire is toast, a vampire. 2] True love can kill it at this time.  3] Raith did set up his daughters so they had no choice upon whom that first feeding began, so it happened and results in death of the victim. 4] Most importantly Raith sets them up so then he can establish Hunger power over them though incest.  No, I don't think this is standard White Court practice.

19
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm gives Harry more to bargain for
« on: March 26, 2024, 01:41:11 PM »
To be clear:  are you suggesting that the "magicians of the day" (Harry Houdini, David Copperfield, Harry Blackstone (Sr. & Jr.)) were all actual wizards (e.g. White Council or the like), instead of mundane "stage magicians" (like Malcolm was)?

I tend to think not.  "Stage magic" is a well-understood (if intentionally obscure) art, and we don't have to posit "real" magicians faking that they are faking their magic (tho it's an amusing idea).

Agreed, what Malcolm knew and performed were strictly stage vanilla human tricks and illusions.  Though I think it is fair to say that Malcolm knew Margaret was a wizard, I think less clear, how much he knew of her world.  He knew enough apparently to go along with her desire to give birth to a star child.  However the more subtle aspects like the power of names and why one should be very careful giving one's name to a demon for example as Harry explained back in Fool Moon when he called up Chauncy is another matter.  I doubt that Malcolm's knowledge was that extensive and it is what it is, he named Harry after a magician that he admired, not so Harry would have a lot of names to bargain with later on in his life.

20
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 25, 2024, 02:17:00 AM »
This is pretty much "family life" for all Whampires.

The parents all "set up" their kids, try to make sure that "first feeding" is just teen hormones & body-chemistry (or teenage angst/despair for the Skavis, etc).  A few train them young and ruthless, so they know ahead of time... but that's the exception.

I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it.  That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father.  Inari still most likely will fail at true love, Jim left that an open question as far as her future was concerned, but it would still be on her own terms.  I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.

21
DF Spoilers / Re: Lara and Harry
« on: March 24, 2024, 04:51:49 PM »
I'd have to re-read the passage for the precise wording:  it could have been just a bluff, a pressure-tactic against Harry.  But even so, I'd bet that Mab is entirely-willing to use a Whampire's hunger-demon as part of her manipulation-campaign against a Winter Knight.

Thomas would be especially-vulnerable:
  • isolate him from Justine "because training"
  • give him tons of hot&eager wintersidhe (from whom he can feed freely without risk of killing them.
Condition him to be unrestrained & incautious.  Then, when he has done some mission that made him spend deeply from the Whamp reserves, is desperately (even catastrophically) Hungry:
  • make all that Faerie Hotness "unfortunately-unavailable"
  • toss a vulnerable mortal Doe his way
Let the virtually-inevitable happen.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

All of that could be true, but I have reread the passage as well more than once and I think it is all part of the Fae Con.. Harry has been burnt enough by it, that when he listened to Lea's offer he realized she was telling him just enough of what he wanted to hear, so that he would then proceed to lie to himself about what she just told him.  No the Fae cannot lie, but they can make you lie to yourself.. That's why trying to bargain with them is so dangerous.  How often has Mab smugly said paraphrasing now, "that's what you thought I meant, but that's not what I really said." 

22
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 23, 2024, 08:57:34 PM »
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I think it's worth noting that there are two questions being addressed in the thread:
1st (as posed in this OP) - Is "Karma" a bitch?  Does "Fate" now have a violent end in store for Thomas?  Is Thomas (having murdered) now doomed to face a violent (albeit possibly heroic) end?  It's worth noting here that Thomas has been a murderer ever since we met him:  whampires only manifest fully after their 1st full
 feeding, which AFAIK is always to the death (n.b. Connie & Irwin are an odd case)... so Thomas must have killed his first lover.
Yes, he did murder his first victim, it has been years since I read Blood Rites, but if I remember correctly Lord Raith set him up. Young, with perhaps little understanding of what he was, let alone control, he fed upon his first victim until she died and became a full vampire himself.  Lord Raith did the same with Lara, and tried to set up their little sister, Inari with Harry as her first kill.  Interesting that though especially Lara was at peace with her status, Thomas also for the most part, neither wanted that for their little sister, they wanted her to have at least a choice, nor have a chance that true love would burn out the Hunger Demon before she killed anyone.  In short Lord Raith set Thomas up to commit murder, and in spite of some efforts not to, he has committed murder since in the course of feeding, especially during and after the Skin Walker had a hold of him.

23
DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 20, 2024, 01:15:32 PM »
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Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.

You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see.
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Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need.  If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .

Which really makes Vadderung/Odin's point doesn't it.  Protocol, in other words while wearing the Kringlemantle, Kringle has to obey Mab, but only as long as Mab's agenda goes along with Odin.  If it doesn't, Odin simply drops the Kringlemantle, AND he doesn't have to obey Mab.  And yes, things would get tense really quick, so it is all handled very diplomatically, through protocol because Odin or Kringle/Odin doesn't need to duel Mab as Vadderung/Odin points out.
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Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle:  neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.
Again, protocol, so on the surface Kringle has to obey Mab as a member of Winter, but since he is also Odin, he can drop the mantle ,and tell her to go fish at anytime which wouldn't be good.. So it is in the best interest of both to play nice, Mab is never going to command Kringle to do anything that Odin would really object to.. 

24
DF Spoilers / Re: Lara and Harry
« on: March 20, 2024, 12:55:20 PM »
Well, Lea can.  Doubt it's a general thing that very many of the Fae can do!  I bet Mab can, and maybe Titania.  I doubt the Winter Ladies could do it:  Maeve was too much of a slacker, Molly is both too new, and likely still flinches every time she thinks deeply about Rampires.  I'm less clear about the Summer Ladies, but kind of doubt it:  Winter (as led by Mab) seems to embrace the "knowledge is power" trope more; Summer seems to more intuitively feel that knowledge flows from power.

Also, Lea talked about it as a secret, as knowledge that she could trade for; not an inherently "faerie" power.

I think both Courts can do it, I don't buy that the Fae of Summer are less powerful than the Fae of Winter.  We have seen both Queens in action in Battle Ground, they seem pretty equal to me.  So while they can put the vamp part to sleep, it doesn't mean they can do it permanently.  Yeah, well, Lea was trying to make a sale or what she'd call a bargain.  The Fae are very good at the con game, while they cannot lie, they are not totally honest either.  What they do is push just enough truth, i.e. Lea said she'd trade for the knowledge, which she is vague about, but at the same time not lying about, in the hopes that Harry would be so desperate for a cure that he'd lie to himself about what it was exactly, that she was trading, and make a bargain for it.. 

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DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 19, 2024, 02:26:12 PM »
Odin isn't Fae.
The Kringlemantle is: -- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/... Search for "Kringle" on the page

Just like Harry himself isn't Fae, but the WK mantel is.

But then Jim goes on in the next line to say;

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His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
2013 KC signing Q&A
If you’re (a powerful immortal being) in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn’t mind it, he thinks it’s awesome.

What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol.  Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his.  In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.

26
DF Spoilers / Re: Lara and Harry
« on: March 19, 2024, 02:12:53 PM »
Not sure if anyone not in love is immune

  Well, it is complicated, because being in love doesn't always mean true love.  Falling in love can be merely the emotion and or sexual attraction of the moment, where as true love is something deeper and not easily undone.. Which is another glitch in the system if you will, how easily the true love protection is wiped out by a simple sexual transgression..  In other words, a person can be truly in love with someone, have a one night stand that is purely physical with someone else, remain truly in love with that original someone, but because of that one night stand lose their protection.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Star and Stones
« on: March 19, 2024, 02:01:57 PM »
You don't get to be the best without some practical experience. You can train to a very high level, but you still want some actual on the job training.  Listen is in the field just like Harry, because they need to be used to these types of situations or they won't be ready at the ultimate moment.

  Harry has more or less been tested since he was sixteen.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 17, 2024, 05:08:07 PM »
The "legalities" within Faerie are quite absolute.
Legally-outmaneuver a faerie and they will do something they absolutely HATE having to do.

And the Kringlemantle is Fae.
Kringle thus has to obey Mab.
Odin does not have to obey her... Odin seems able to put on & take off the Kringlemantle at will (tricky sort, Odin; just as much so as Mab, really).

Notice that Kringle uses the word "protocol"  As defined;

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What's the difference between protocol and etiquette?
Is Etiquette the Same as Manners? What about Protocol and ...
While Etiquette & Manners involve the rules of politeness and compassion among people in a social setting, Protocol comprises the set of rules associated with formalities, ceremonial events and official occasions involving nations and their representatives; as well as functions or formal procedures related to ...

Kringle doesn't use the word mantle anywhere when he describes himself.. Nor does he mention putting on or taking off a mantle.. 
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Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body," he replied
So no, I don't think Kringle is a Fae. Just a guess, but I think under the Accords protocol, Odin as Kringle is a member of the
Winter Court.  He does have to obey certain rules under protocol, but I doubt that Mab under those same protocols can
force Kringle to do anything, nor can Kringle do what he wants.. As Kringle explains...
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    "That's just a fiction,"I said, " a little game of protocol."
    ""Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well.  It can be tedious but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."

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DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 16, 2024, 03:44:44 AM »
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No, he told Harry that he was meeting him (IIRC in Changes) as Kringle specifically because Harry had called as the Winter Knight, that Kringle was part of Winter, and that if Mab had wanted service from Vadderung he'd have told her to make an appointment just like any other customer.

You got your books mixed up.  In Changes Harry meets with Vadderung, but in Skin Game as Winter Knight he meets him in Mac's Bar as Kringle.  I also think it is a bit more complicated,  page 372 Skin Game
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Vadderung is a complicated guy.
"But you and Kringle are the same person," I said.
"Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body," he replied.
"That's just a fiction,"I said, " a little game of protocol."
""Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well.  It can be tedious but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."

No mention of mantles when it comes to Vadderung/Odin/Kringle, I do find it an interesting passage. Yes, a page or two later Harry mentions that he and Kringle are both members of the Winter Court, but the above passage implies to me at any rate that Kringle is a member of the Winter Court out of curtsy to Mab, not as her subject, nor does he really get along with her, but out of respect.

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Kringle is subject to Mab.

Mab doesn't usually push the issue because Vadderung -- and Odin! -- are not subject to Mab, and Mab really doesn't want to make an enemy there.
 
Kringle is subject to Mab legally but he alsoisn't because he is also Odin in the same body, or as Harry put it, " a little game of protocol."  This arrangement apparently keeps the peace.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Does Thomas get a free pass?
« on: March 15, 2024, 07:24:21 PM »
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I don't think that the Hunger Demon is much like a mantle, though.  Obviously, Jim could write that it is, but they seem entirely-separate things, to me.

  The Hunger Demon is nothing like a mantle.  The Hunger Demon is more like a parasite that the host is born with.  When the host reaches puberty or sexual maturity the HD parasite is ready to feed and awakens with the first sexual experience and full maturity when the host feeds on the emotions of the victim until it dies.  It is a symbiotic relationship, it compels the host to feed,thus flourishing it and in return it gives the host, youth, exceptional strength, and beauty.   
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"Claus" is specifically the Kringlemantle, though.  Mantles are constructs, and made to be separated from the people who wield/wear the mantle.  Odin, in particular, often takes off the Kringlemantle (I would allege that he is only rarely Kringle:  because Kringle is subject to Mab, but Vadderung & Odin emphatically are not).

I don't think Kringle is subject to anyone, I think Kringle is merely another aspect of Odin's mantle.
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I don't think we've ever seen the Mother/Queen/Lady (or Knight) mantles separate from their owners (except of course when the owners die).  Vadderung has told Harry several times about not always being Kringle; I expect this foreshadows Harry being able to "take off" the Knightmantle, and put it back on.

Kringle also told Harry on Halloween during "the Hunt" many mantles/faces maybe worn.  Odin is a god, where as Harry is a mere human, wizard, yes, but human, I don't think he can take the Winter Knight's mantle on and off like a cloak.

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