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Messages - Mira

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6451
DF Spoilers / Re: A Question About Naagloshii
« on: June 06, 2019, 02:57:18 PM »
I read it perfectly fine the first time.  My point, which was apparently missed, was that you could fall in love with a grizzly bear; but if you try to give that grizzly a kiss you're going to get eaten.

The only way she could fall in love with a naagloshii is if it tricked her into it.

And my comment about rape was not about methodology.  My hypothesis was that she would not, regardless if it were possible.  Otherwise the whole theory falls apart.

If it kept to it's human form she wouldn't have a clue that she was making love to a grizzly.. If it stayed in human form, she wouldn't know until the kid was born with a rude awakening.

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DF Spoilers / Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« on: June 06, 2019, 02:15:03 PM »
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My original point is that Murphy's antagonism to Dresden in Fool Moon isn't properly set up, and we have to read between the lines in the rest of the series to back fill it. Even then, there is great debate on whether or not her actions are explainable.

Perhaps, however it works very well in pointing out her major character flaw, which comes back to bite her big time in the latest book.  If one of Harry's major flaw is his propensity to be over protective, which often backfires because he holds back information when he should be up front.. Murphy's major flaw is when she thinks she is right she shuts her mind and jumps to conclusions.

6453
DF Spoilers / Re: Any news on Peace Talks
« on: June 06, 2019, 01:02:48 PM »
I'm the other way around, I think (almost) every new book in the series has improved over the prior ones. Exceptions are Blood Rites, White Night and Ghost Story.

That is a manner of opinion... 

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A part of me is like the longer the book, the more I'll get to read, but another part of me is like finish already! I want to read it now!

That is how I am increasing feeling about the whole series.. Actually I've felt this for some time.. Why?  Because as the years go by, Jim gets occupied with more creative projects, like all of us he has a life and that gets more complicated... Result longer stretches between books,  with a few unsatisfying crumbs scattered in between...   Jim talks about Maggie at school spin offs, he is writing a whole new major series concurrent with the Dresden Files...  Result, the books since Changes have seemed rushed, diluted even,  sometimes especially the short stories, going through the motions... If Jim is floundering and I pray he isn't, it may because he is trying to stretch it out just a bit too thin, trying to put in six books where one focused one could tell it all.   

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Missing the point. It doesn't matter that Harry didn't know what she was going to do. Harry told her a pretty bare bones assessment "they are vampires, they eat people," which she didn't take seriously. He could have told her more that would have made her more wary about the situation

No, I am not,   he didn't just tell her they eat people, he emphasized that he felt it was too dangerous even for himself.  Susan prided herself on being a good reporter,they gather information, but she never pushed him with one question about them, not one...  All she could think about was "what a great scoop" it would be and that Harry was being over protective... Once that got on her brain she was deaf to any further warnings he tried to give her...  She had gotten though the other things safely, discounting luck and the fact that Harry was there to save the day... So how dangerous could a nest of vampires be? She didn't need his protection she decided.  It still comes back to who stole, forged the invitation, and crashed the party?  Who?  In my book that makes Susan solely responsible for her actions and what happened to her..  She had wanted to make her name so badly with an exclusive, it didn't matter how much information Harry gave her.  In fact the more he told her the more excited and deaf she became to any warnings against it.

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She "handled" it by waiting in the van and then doing nothing but hold the camera while Harry killed it.
She didn't exactly wait in the van, she took a video of it remember?   Of Harry killing it if I remember correctly..  She said she had handled it, in her mind she had, it doesn't matter in her mind that she had gotten it all out of perspective, and the fact that if Harry hadn't been able to kill it she could very well have been toast..
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    I just don't see how Harry better informing the Alphas of the wider world of supernatural creatures or politics would have helped in this situation.

Nothing was ever going to make this any better, that should be obvious from the attack at Raith Manor. However the question is answered directly in the text.
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    He nodded. “So. If I’d had this conversation with you sooner, maybe they wouldn’t be. Maybe if we’d had a better idea about what’s actually going on in the world, it would have changed how we approached things. They follow my lead, Harry. I have a responsibility to make sure that I do everything in my power to make them aware and safe.”

And Jim throws a little irony around later when he throws out this little snippet.
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You are still ignoring the fact that when the pack first came up against the skinwalker, when Kirby got killed.   Harry had no clue what they were up against except it was bad and dangerous.. The attack on the Raiths came later in the book..  Will made his point because Harry was vague about the island, Kirby's death earned them the right to have all the information when they go up against something, and Harry agreed... But again, in the attack where Kirby got killed, Harry had given  them the only information he had in the moment or was able to give because he was totally freaked out by it.   The pack still decided to back him, their choice... Harry wasn't responsible that that, from then on if the pack decided to follow him, and he knew now what it was, then it is his duty to tell them all he knows about what they are getting into and not to shield them..


clue what it was, just that it w

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Susan knew the supernatural was dangerous -- that's why she goes to the party with holy water and a gun. But she thought she could handle it because Harry didn't really detail how dangerous it would be, i.e., that if she was caught with a fake invitation she wouldn't just be kicked out, she'd be eaten or worse.

First of all he didn't know until he saw her at the party that she had stolen then forged, then crashed the party..  Harry very clearly warns her, "they are vampires, they eat people..."  He wasn't going to go because he felt it was too dangerous for him.  She was hot to trot about the scoop and she handled the Loop etc...  Yeah, she'd seen a few Dracula movies and perhaps read the book so she was prepared...  How much information beyond "they eat people" do you need?  Susan is a smart girl, she never asked, "what do you mean they eat people? How do they do that?"  No, she was too focused on the scoop, the exclusive...

6456
My things with Kirby are that
1. when the Alphas actually engaged the Skinwalker immediately after Kirby got his throat ripped out and Andi was beaten, they successfully drove it off. They didn't beat it, or hurt it, but they put it at a temporary disadvantage long enough for it to not see enough profit in continuing the engagement. So I don't think the Alphas were defenseless. Kirby just picked up the Idiot Ball. It was like he was the character in a ghost story going to investigate the strange noise in the attic by climbing up the stairs backwards with a flashlight that keeps turning off.
2. Kirby was standing watch on the other side of the parking lot, dozens of yards away from any help. He was standing under a streetlight, as a human rather than a wolf, holding a brightly lit cellphone in his hand. He wasn't ready for a surprise attack, even though the guy was supposed to be standing watch. Dresden recognizes the danger Kirby's in, and runs out to call him back when the Skinwalker gets him.
3. If Harry Flippin' Dresden, Big Bad Brother Harry, as Butters calls him—the guy who the Alphas saw take down an entire group of Fae cavalry with one spell, a guy they've personally witnessed take on a pack of Hexenwulves AND a loup-garou, a guy with a reputation for being tough, competent, and extremely powerful (relative to them)—if THAT guy came to me, desperately calculating prime numbers to maintain his grip on his sanity, white as a sheet, telling me that he needed a dark, quiet place for an hour and a half before he was stable enough to function, and that whatever was after him was "really bad," my first response wouldn't be "Let's post two guards several dozen yards away from any kind of protection." It would be "Everyone come into my apartment; we're going to keep watch through the windows and guard ourselves behind a threshold, because something terrifying and powerful enough to send the most badass person we've ever met into gibbering madness is coming, and it's pretty obvious we should do whatever we can to protect ourselves without engaging it."

I mean, shouldn't Billy or Georgia have been smart enough to think, "Hey, maybe this thing could reduce us to insanity too?" And shouldn't Kirby have thought, "Hey, I not only have better senses as a wolf, but I'm faster, stronger, and harder to kill, so I should probably stay as a wolf while I know something dangerous is around?"

Yes, Harry led the skinwalker to the area. But a couple of things about that. 1. Harry didn't have much of a choice. There was, quite literally, nowhere else to go. He couldn't have made it back to his apartment where a threshold would have protected him in the state he was in. He couldn't hide in a crowd of people, because there would be too much noise or light for him to do what he had to. Billy's place was the only one that would be both safe and quiet enough for him to recover. And 2. They don't take Harry's warning seriously enough. Applying even an ounce of genre savviness would have been enough for the Alphas to have escaped without permanent injury.

Maybe you can argue that Harry should have given Billy the rundown on the greater supernatural world, but I don't think it would've done them any good. They already knew there were things like the Loup Garou out there that they couldn't handle. They knew that there were WolfWeres like Tera West that were old and powerful enough to train humans to turn into wolves, so they had to know that the supernatural was bigger, weirder, and more dangerous than they thought. And when you have the guy who sets the bar for humanity's stand against the Spooky Things in the Night come to you and tell you that something really bad is coming, you take all the steps you can to make sure that you and yours stay alive.

Exactly to all of that... That is basically what Will told Harry as well, they knew the risks, they are adults they made their choice it wasn't his fault...  Later on page 220 is a bit different, Will mentions Kirby, but not because he is blaming Harry for his death, but because of his willing sacrifice and the fact that they are not kids any more,  Harry doesn't need to and shouldn't shield them or think he has to shield them from the ugliness out there..  They want to help and fight along side of him, so Harry shouldn't hide anything from them.  And Harry agreed..

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In the case of Susan and Kim Harry either makes too much or too little information available.  In Susan's case she is a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect, she over estimates her competence, Harry would have done better to involve her more and make her aware of the hazards and the mechanics of how the supernatural world works, like the privileges of guests for example.  In Kim's case if he wasn't going to help he should have never drawn the circle on the piece of paper, the same piece that triggers Murphy's attack.

He did...  She was there when he took down the Loop, made hay with her newspaper over the scoop..  If that didn't tell her how dangerous things can get, what would..  But she wanted the scoop and the fame that gave her, plus part of her never bought into how fricking dangerous these beings can be... Her reaction when Harry tried to tell her was he was being over protective of her... Truth of the matter is she never listened to a word he said on the matter.

As far as Kim goes, she swore to him it was merely an academic exercise, and continues to swear that it is.  Why wouldn't he teach her the basics?  In physics class the instructor may draw out the basic plan as to how an A-Bomb works, even how to build one..  However I doubt the same instructor would do it if he or she knew you had enough weapons grade uranium back in your locker to make a bomb.. 

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Susan for example. She is a reporter. She is looking for a scoop. The only she could keep getting into othentic supernatural news is if someone direct her into it. Without someone like Harry, she can only snoop around randomly. The likelihood she'll actually get into deep water is if she truly has rotten luck. Gotten strike by lighting on a clear day kind of rotten luck. It is possible, but unlikely.
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She was working for a supernatural rag... She was a smart driven young woman, she never snooped randomly... Reporters, good ones, don't do that... She wanted to make a big enough splash so that she could move up to a bigger paper.  That is what motivated her to steal that invitation... 

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So even one have contact with a supernatural like Bianca, it is not that easy to actually enter the game. This is especially true during the early part of the series. The supernatural world is still peaceful at the time, and even the war with the red court is unlikely to start so early if not for Harry triggering it. Under such a peaceful times, the supernaturals tends to hide more. Later part of the series, especially after the red court is wiped and the appearance of the fomor resulted in the loosening  of the veil of secrecy, but that is far from book 3. If Susan could survive until book 12 on her own, she'll would become a different person.

Victor Sells, self taught sorcerer making Three Eye to sell to addicts and stupid kids.. Did Harry trigger that?   Or the remote ripping out of hearts...Did Harry trigger that?  Or how secret was either one of those acts?  Or Bianca sucking the life out of her vanilla secretary because Harry brought her the news about what happened to her friend... Or the F.B.I. wearing the Hexenbelts ripping apart some people that didn't deserve it... Or the kids that Bianca groomed to either be turned or food at the party that night?  Some may have burned up because Harry let loose, but the reason they were at that party wasn't because the Red Court was just minding it's own business peacefully.. 

Susan may have become a different person by book 12, for one thing she had already paid a very heavy price for her own stupidity, that tends to change a person..

6459
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Does he? His statement is equivocal as to whose at fault. It's definitely not someone checking Harry like Michael does in Skin Game or Murphy does in White Night. I think it's a good point. I don't agree with the conclusion, but I respect it.

Really?  page 35 Turn Coat...
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"Kirby was an adult, Dresden," Billy said. "He knew what could happen. He chose to be here."
There is nothing equivocal about that statement..  Kirby chose to put himself in harm's way.. He was an adult making adult choices..  He had chosen to be part of the pack as a werewolf long before he met Harry..   

6460
DF Spoilers / Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« on: June 04, 2019, 11:31:40 PM »
And as for Murphy and her character flaws, I think she has improved a good deal over the series too. She's had some major setbacks, so some backsliding here and there is to be expected. (The nightmare attack, breaking the law in Blood Rights, being demoted in Proven Guilty, losing her job in Skin Game, discovering Dresden is almost certainly dead followed by the Fomor conflict, and the circumstances of Dresden's return).

Her one character flaw remains,  when she thinks she is right, her mind closes up like a clam..  Harry completely trusts her judgement so he doesn't see it, love may have something to do with it.

6461
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What bemuses me is that everyone seems to want Harry to be guilty of a crime if he bears the responsibility.  And it doesn't work that way.  Harry's made a choice to live the way he does and he assumes the responsibility and his moral ground.  He quotes Stan Lee often enough.

I don't disagree except I think Harry takes responsibility as opposed to bares responsibility..  The first is Harry feels responsible for a lot of things even when he isn't... He may take responsibility for Kirby's death, but it really wasn't his fault... As opposed to baring responsibility for reversing the curse that wiped out the Red Court..  But then again neither is all that simple...

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In the case of Kirby, the narrative doesn't challenge Billy's response to Kirby's death (contrasted to how the narrative challenged Butter in Skin Game). Billy is the one challenging Harry and is framed in justified in expecting Harry to share more information. Harry might not be the cause but there's culpability, otherwise Harry would have no reason to change how he does things.

Not true...  What Will was saying was with Kirby's death they have proven that they are willing to pay the ultimate price, they are not kids that need to be protected..  That isn't assigning culpability for Kirby's death,  it is demanding respect as team members..  Harry realizes that, he knows he needs them in the coming fight, he realizes they are adults now, capable of making choices.  All he can do now is give them what information he can so they can make the choices right for them.

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He could have said something.  But only something vague.

And he did.  "This is bad.  Really bad."

But that was all the information Harry had in that moment...  And he did share it..
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Even if Harry had said to them, "There are things in the supernatural realm that can tear a werewolf apart... tear a PACK of werewolves apart.  And one of them is here in town, right now, hunting the neighborhood," I don't think ti would have disuaded them.
 

Agreed, and that is what Will was trying to tell Harry afterwards, they knew the score, they are adults they made their choice...

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To me, the issue is not that Harry is in any way culpable in Kirby's death, but that, by refusing to share information, Harry allowed the possibility that other Alphas would get killed due to the lack of information. It's a hypothetical concern that was only really brought home to Will and Harry when Kirby died. For example, if the Alpha's had gotten into a fight with a Denarian and one of them had died, there's a good chance Harry would have had some culpability, because he had a bunch of information about Denarians that might have helped, but up until this point he hasn't shared it. This isn't true with the Skinwalker, of course, but it makes the possibilities clear.

In the fight that killed Kirby,  Harry did not know until after the fact what they were up against.. He gave them the information he had, it was bad and dangerous, that is all he knew..  What Will was saying on page 220 almost two hundred pages later is the fact that Kirby was willing to and did die to help Harry earned them the right to know fully what the stakes were before going in, they weren't kids anymore to be shielded...
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Wolfeyes raises a good point arguing that Jim wants us to believe it is Harry's fault, not just in this case, but in all of them, that harm has come because he didn't share information. I don't believe he is ever told it's not his fault. He does repeatedly bring up the point that people have been hurt by him not informing them. He is often called out for blaming himself in general.

Will clearly tells him it isn't his fault...

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2. Harry caused Kirby's death in Turn Coat. But for Harry going to Billy's, Kirby wouldn't have been involved. Harry being the "but-for" cause does not make him responsible, either legally or morally. Legally, being the cause in fact if necessary but not sufficient for culpability. I'd say it is the same for morally, but morality is infinitely debatable. That, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Kirby died because Harry withheld information from Billy. I agree with the arguments that he did not and don't think I've seen an argument other than "Billy said so" on the other side.

Which he clearly didn't say if one cares to read the text.. Billy is emphatic that it wasn't Harry's fault.

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    “Billy,” I said quietly. “This isn’t stuff you can unlearn. Right now, you’re insulated from the worst of what goes on because you’re . . . I don’t want to be insulting, but you’re a bunch of amateurs without enough of a clue to be a real threat to anyone.”
    His eyes darkened. “Insulated from the worst?” he asked in a quiet, dangerous voice. “Tell that to Kirby. Tell that to Andi.”

Obviously if he has been shielding then from the worst they can't of had any idea that something like the Skinwalker was a possibility.  And if that isn't clear then there is this.
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  Because as I have written from when it happened, Will was not blaming Harry...  Harry hadn't been trying to shield them from anything because he didn't know what in the hell he had just seen except it was very bad and dangerous...


The quote you cite is on page 220,  Harry now knows what they are after and it is on the island.  Will is willing to help, but he no longer wants to be shielded from the danger by Harry..   He wasn't assessing blame for Kirby's death to Harry, he was saying that they are not kids anymore, and earned the right to be fully filled in about what is going down..

Harry then says..
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I pointed a finger at him.  "I don't want it.  I don't wantto drag you into what's going on/  I don't want you walking into more danger and getting hurt."  I sighed.  "But. . .there is a lot at stake, and I think I may need your help."

Will agrees, and Harry realizes they are not kids anymore, and promises to clue them in as much as he can from now on...
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1) First, that it claims that Harry is the reason for all the nasty stuff happening around him. Whether Harry were around or not, the problems of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Summer Knight, Death Masks, part of Blood Rites, Dead Beat (probably), possibly Proven Guilty (depending on what people's motivations were--we just don't know yet), Turn Coat (although it wouldn't have happened in Chicago), and possibly Cold Days, would still have happened. And most of them would have happened in the same place. So how is Harry considered responsible for bringing down all that trouble onto people?

Because he is the lightning rod, and because for the most part he is the one who cares enough to want to do something about it... What is more has the talent to do something about it...  He is living the argument his mother used to make to the Senior Council, that wizards cannot lock themselves away in some ivory tower while the world falls down around them..  Other people naturally want to join his causes, they are very dangerous causes, and people get hurt and sometimes even killed.
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2)"Everyone around him" is too broad a category. Harry does not owe it to the entire city of Chicago to tell them about the supernatural world. You could as easily claim that Harry owes it to everyone around him to go live as a hermit and never get close to anyone, because trouble might find him and hurt those around him. It's just unreasonable.
It is, but like he learned from Will, if someone is willing to put his or her life on the line, they deserve the complete skinny on as to why...
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This would probably work, except that I tend to think that Harry was too catatonic to be expected to remember it in order to tell Will at the time. Other people may interpret his level of non-functionality differently, however.

The way I read the text and the aftermath of Kirby's death, Harry wasn't sure what he saw, he had never seen a skinwalker before that moment..  It wasn't until the fight was over that he realized what they were up against.. 
Page 33
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"What was that thing?"
"I'm not certain,"  I answered, breathing hard.  Georgia was coming along behind us dragging my staff in her jaws. "But if it is what I think it is, things just got a lot worse."
Billy looked up at me, Kirby's blood all over his face and hands.  "What is it Harry?"
"A Native American nightmare," I said.  I looked at him gravely, "A skinwalker."
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