Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Mira

Pages: 1 ... 430 431 [432] 433 434 ... 502
6466
Quote
2. Harry caused Kirby's death in Turn Coat. But for Harry going to Billy's, Kirby wouldn't have been involved. Harry being the "but-for" cause does not make him responsible, either legally or morally. Legally, being the cause in fact if necessary but not sufficient for culpability. I'd say it is the same for morally, but morality is infinitely debatable. That, however, has nothing to do with whether or not Kirby died because Harry withheld information from Billy. I agree with the arguments that he did not and don't think I've seen an argument other than "Billy said so" on the other side.

Which he clearly didn't say if one cares to read the text.. Billy is emphatic that it wasn't Harry's fault.

Quote
    “Billy,” I said quietly. “This isn’t stuff you can unlearn. Right now, you’re insulated from the worst of what goes on because you’re . . . I don’t want to be insulting, but you’re a bunch of amateurs without enough of a clue to be a real threat to anyone.”
    His eyes darkened. “Insulated from the worst?” he asked in a quiet, dangerous voice. “Tell that to Kirby. Tell that to Andi.”

Obviously if he has been shielding then from the worst they can't of had any idea that something like the Skinwalker was a possibility.  And if that isn't clear then there is this.
Quote

  Because as I have written from when it happened, Will was not blaming Harry...  Harry hadn't been trying to shield them from anything because he didn't know what in the hell he had just seen except it was very bad and dangerous...


The quote you cite is on page 220,  Harry now knows what they are after and it is on the island.  Will is willing to help, but he no longer wants to be shielded from the danger by Harry..   He wasn't assessing blame for Kirby's death to Harry, he was saying that they are not kids anymore, and earned the right to be fully filled in about what is going down..

Harry then says..
Quote
I pointed a finger at him.  "I don't want it.  I don't wantto drag you into what's going on/  I don't want you walking into more danger and getting hurt."  I sighed.  "But. . .there is a lot at stake, and I think I may need your help."

Will agrees, and Harry realizes they are not kids anymore, and promises to clue them in as much as he can from now on...
Quote
1) First, that it claims that Harry is the reason for all the nasty stuff happening around him. Whether Harry were around or not, the problems of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Summer Knight, Death Masks, part of Blood Rites, Dead Beat (probably), possibly Proven Guilty (depending on what people's motivations were--we just don't know yet), Turn Coat (although it wouldn't have happened in Chicago), and possibly Cold Days, would still have happened. And most of them would have happened in the same place. So how is Harry considered responsible for bringing down all that trouble onto people?

Because he is the lightning rod, and because for the most part he is the one who cares enough to want to do something about it... What is more has the talent to do something about it...  He is living the argument his mother used to make to the Senior Council, that wizards cannot lock themselves away in some ivory tower while the world falls down around them..  Other people naturally want to join his causes, they are very dangerous causes, and people get hurt and sometimes even killed.
Quote
2)"Everyone around him" is too broad a category. Harry does not owe it to the entire city of Chicago to tell them about the supernatural world. You could as easily claim that Harry owes it to everyone around him to go live as a hermit and never get close to anyone, because trouble might find him and hurt those around him. It's just unreasonable.
It is, but like he learned from Will, if someone is willing to put his or her life on the line, they deserve the complete skinny on as to why...
Quote
This would probably work, except that I tend to think that Harry was too catatonic to be expected to remember it in order to tell Will at the time. Other people may interpret his level of non-functionality differently, however.

The way I read the text and the aftermath of Kirby's death, Harry wasn't sure what he saw, he had never seen a skinwalker before that moment..  It wasn't until the fight was over that he realized what they were up against.. 
Page 33
Quote
"What was that thing?"
"I'm not certain,"  I answered, breathing hard.  Georgia was coming along behind us dragging my staff in her jaws. "But if it is what I think it is, things just got a lot worse."
Billy looked up at me, Kirby's blood all over his face and hands.  "What is it Harry?"
"A Native American nightmare," I said.  I looked at him gravely, "A skinwalker."
Quote

6467
Quote
   3b) Harry was incapable of sharing any information from the time he used his Sight on the Skinwalker until he had recovered in Will's guest room

He didn't even know what he had seen except it was real bad...  Page 28 Turn Coat..  Harry is recovering from seeing it, he had been down for 82 minutes...

Quote
"What is it?"  Billy asked quietly.
"I don't know," I said.  "But it is real bad."

Harry did ask Billy to call the pack together...  However he wasn't withholding any information because he didn't have any...  Just that it was bad enough to send him into a near catatonic state.. It should have been a holy shit moment for Billy to hold back protecting his pack until they got more information.. There was no more information to be had, except it was bad, ugly, and extremely dangerous.   For the record....
Billy DID NOT blame Harry for what happened to Kirby....  page 35 Turn Coat hardback
Quote
I stared toward the knot of officers around Kirby's corpse.  "I didn't mean for this to happen."
"Kirby was an adult, Dresden," Billy said. "He knew what could happen.  He chose to be here."
 

Harry knows that was true, but he still felt responsible, but then admitted he couldn't have known.. same page

Quote
I hadn't known what the skinwalker was before, beyond something awlful, but that didn't change anything.
Harry hadn't withheld any information before hand, he told Billy it was something very, very bad, no clue as to what it was he saw, except bad.  So bad it made him catatonic for over eighty minutes after seeing it with his sight... Billy knew that and still agreed to call his pack in..

Billy, now Will goes on to say to Harry....same page..

Quote
"You didn't know it was going to come down like that, man.  We all owe you our lives, Harry, I'm glad we got the chance to be there for you."

As Nadia says, whoever sent the skinwalker in the first place is the the blame, the real guilty party.. The skinwalker is a sadistic creature doing it's bidding, it enjoys it's job..  Neither Harry nor Billy nor any of the other of it's victims are the blame...  Will and his pack made a choice to back Harry, Kirby paid the ultimate price for doing that, but it was his choice... Even if they had understood it was a skinwalker and all that implied, would they have made the same choice?  Yeah, I think so...

6468
I quoted Billy and what he thought about it, not Harry.

Who knows in the emotion of the moment,  Billy is also the pack leader he feels responsibility for stuff as well...  Since he and Georgia were on the island for the showdown with the Skinwalker, he apparently didn't hold too much against Harry...

6469
Quote
The shapeshifter is a force of nature.  While he delivered the blow, Harry was the cause.  He didn't go looking for the pack, he went looking for Harry.  And Jim through the way he writes Harry, seems to feel the same way.  In Cold Front in a bid to reduce possible collateral damage, he breaks in to Butters apartment to steal Bob rather then knocking and saying please.  Harry is a lightning rod and he owes it to everyone around him to explain the danger of standing near him in lightning storms.  After Turn Coat he's figured this out and all his allies are clued in.

Hold it, you are blaming the potential victim for the crime..  Yes, Harry was the target, but his friends were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time..  That doesn't make it his fault, they chose to be with him.  Yes, he may feel some responsibility but that doesn't make it rational, which pushed him to do they type of thing he did to try an protect Butters..  Which is understandable, but not totally rational.
Quote
I'd like it noted that I feel uncomfortable with the claim that Harry owes it to people around him to explain everything, and I have a gut feeling that it's wrong. However, it's after 2am here, so I cannot find the words to explain why I feel that way. I may come back to this after I've gotten some sleep.
Same here, but whether or not Harry "owes" it to people to explain everything is a silly argument as you are trying to point out.  For one thing, I am almost though my first cup of coffee, anyway most of the time he cannot explain everything because he himself doesn't know everything at that moment...  He could try to explain to Billy and company about the Skinwalker, but they don't have
the sight so they cannot see it for what it really is..  They work as a pack so they think they are pretty bad ass and can fight above their weight class,  Harry when he takes refuge at Billy's place is nearly catatonic from what he had just witnessed...   
Quote
Yes, she hadn't gotten anywhere. This is because A) She was focussing on Harry, which she wouldn't do if Harry wasn't involved; and B) Harry wrapped up the three-eye thing extremely quickly.

She was coming on to Harry to get information, very true.. He allowed her to do it because he hadn't really been with a woman since Elaine...  However their first date nearly ended in tragedy because of the Frog Demon attack....  "Danger Will Robinson...."  Susan was a big girl, prides herself on being a smart one....  Her choice from then on out to continue with Harry or not...  She did fall in love with him, but she also was a moth attracted to a flame, knowing him and getting the information would make her career... She may have loved him, but in the end she used him, stealing that invitation wasn't an act of love..  You may think he owed her all the information he knew, but other than using it to expose things to the public that might get them killed, wouldn't have stopped her from going headlong into a nest of vipers for her career... None of that is Harry's fault, Susan made her choice and took her chances, she paid for it.
Quote

I am not sure about Kim Deloney, but Susan is definitely drawn into the supernatural via Harry. She saw his advertisement and come to interview Harry. She trick Harry into a soulgaze and thus confirm the existence of the supernatural. She wouldn't have found Harry if not for the advertisement. She would not have trick Harry into a soulgaze if Harry did not proclaim in the advertisement that he is a real wizard.

First of all, Susan wasn't drawn into the supernatural world because of Harry... She already worked for a paranormal rag... Upon her soul gaze with Harry she promptly fainted...  I've already stated what happened on their first date...  She knew very well from that point on just how dangerous hanging out with Harry could be...  She made her choices and decided the danger was worth the story and later the love..  Or part of her continued to deny the truth that this kind of knowledge could get her killed, or worse..  In spite of what she had witnessed and by Grave Peril she had witnessed plenty, she still chose to believe that Harry was exaggerating the dangers, and chose to steal that invitation... 

6470
Quote
They train soldiers so that they pay attention to orders without thinking and practice their responses to the situations that they expect to see in the field.  What they try not to do is let inexperienced people into situations that could kill them with out the knowledge they need to stay alive.  Run through your mind about the type of things Jim has Harry do to Molly that runs along this vain when he acquires Molly as an apprentice.  If he was going to bring Kim or Susan into his realm, he incurred an obligation to give them them that knowledge. 

He didn't bring either one of them into his realm, they volunteered.. He took neither on as an apprentice... Susan was a reporter, in the beginning she wanted to use Harry to get the story...
She worked for a supernatural rag, she wanted to use Harry to gain her own fame... Yeah, she fell in love with him along the road, but don't pretend that she didn't blind herself to the fact that Harry had"danger Will Robinson" written all over him... She chose to ignore it at her own peril...

Quote
The point is Susan should have known about the supernatural at all. This is all started when Harry advertise himself as a wizard in the yellow pages. He open the Pandora's box right there. There is a reason why the white council looks poorly about Harry in this matter. It may look innocent at the start, but Harry's advertisement draws amateurs into the the game of supernaturals. All because Harry can't maintain secrecy at the start and fail to fully clued in people when secrecy fails.

The amateurs are in it any way,  the young warlocks that lose their heads annually are not Harry's fault..   Victor got there all on his own, not because of some two line ad in the Yellow Pages, he never sought the help from a professional...
Quote
They train soldiers so that they pay attention to orders without thinking and practice their responses to the situations that they expect to see in the field.  What they try not to do is let inexperienced people into situations that could kill them with out the knowledge they need to stay alive.  Run through your mind about the type of things Jim has Harry do to Molly that runs along this vain when he acquires Molly as an apprentice.  If he was going to bring Kim or Susan into his realm, he incurred an obligation to give them them that knowledge. 

Again he never lead either woman....  He warned Kim that she had neither the knowledge nor the training to build that circle... Given the time constraint, full moon in the next day or two, it is doubtful he could have given her either enough knowledge or training to build one if he knew what she really wanted the knowledge for...  It isn't reasonable to think he could prepare her when she refused to give him the information about what she was really up to..

What training could he possibly have given Susan to keep her safe at the party?   Given her hunger for the story, the more information he could give her about the guests would only fuel her desire more to be there...  She stole the fricken invitation, crashed the party, is Harry responsible for that? 

6471
Quote
He should had taken more proactive action. The only excuse Harry has to explain this mistake is youth and inexperience. If it is Morgan, Kim would have been interrogated at sword point.

About what?  Harry wasn't a Warden at that time, and just asking about the ring isn't forbidden..  He asks her again and again why she wants the information, she answers in the hypothetical...  When he realizes that she is trying to lead him into forbidden classified information open only to certified wizards only to be used in the most special of cases he shuts down the information..  He has no authority to either hold her or assault her to find out why she wants the information.  Up until that point he had no clue that there was a Loop loose upon the world that she was trying to contain...  If it is anyone's fault it is Kim's for thinking just because she can ride a bicycle she fly a jet without any training..  It is about her ego her response to Harry's warnings is, you think I am not strong enough to make one. She is pissed because Harry is roughly her age and he is a full wizard where as she isn't even an apprentice... That says to me she thinks she has something to prove, not that she is really concerned about anyone's safety...  It's her decision to go back and try to make the circle without all the information she needs, and she gets herself killed..  She also has some idea if not fully aware of what she is trying to contain when Harry warns her about the dangers..  Yet she elects to say nothing to him...  She doesn't want any realhelp from him, no, she is out to prove something that was beyond her and it got her killed...   There is no proactive against that...

6472
Look, it's Harry's, he owns it.  He led it to them and it killed them.  They couldn't make an informed choice because he kept them in the dark.  It isn't that they might not die but rather that they didn't fully understand the risks.  And this is true in all the early books, with Kim Delaney and Susan.  Both were foolish, but it's one thing to be foolish and another to be ignorant and foolish.  Turn Coat is the last time it's an issue.  So I'll call it three times, to speak to the OP's point.

Um, he warned both Kim and Susan as best he could, let's not forget some information Harry isn't at liberty to share...  Let's be fair here,  did Kim tell Harry why she really wanted the plans?  No...  When Harry mentioned that such a circle was only used to contain the likes of archangels and demigods, did she say who or what she was trying to contain?  NO!  Her answer was sheer stupidity about Harry thinking she isn't strong enough to build such a circle.. Even if Harry had given her ALL the information it is doubtful that she could have pulled it off under pressure...

Susan, what more could Harry have told her?   All she cared about was getting a story so she blew off Harry's warnings about the party and who was there, hell he didn't want to go it was so dangerous...  After witnessing the run in with the Loop, and the Frog Demon in Storm Front you'd think she'd trust Harry's word when he says something is just too dangerous for mere vanilla mortals to come up against... The smart thing would have been to trust his word and use common sense... When someone tells you not to touch the red hot stove, don't touch it or you might get badly burned...  She was, and Kim paid with her life..   Both had pretty informed choices to make and they made them, they chose to disregard Harry's warnings.  It's like a mine field with signs that say, "DO NOT GO INTO THE MINE FIELD, DANGER!!!!"  You know mines can kill, you know they can rip off arms and legs etc.... You've been told by an explosives expert that these are very powerful mines easily triggered and they can reduce you to a red stain in the dirt...   But you've never seen this yourself, and though this person is an expert, he has to be over protective, just how dangerous can they really be?  You make your informed choice and take a walk in the marked field... You may get lucky and not trip anything, does that make the warnings wrong?  Or you step on one and are reduced to red goo...  You made an informed choice, what more information could the explosive expert have given you to keep you out of that damn field?

6473
DF Spoilers / Re: A Question About Naagloshii
« on: June 03, 2019, 08:06:55 PM »
I think if you re-read what he wrote you'll likely conclude that he meant the woman falls in love with the Naagloshii, not the other way around.  :)
Exactly...
Quote
     


It does require a modicum of freedom, for the woman; and a certain degree of availability, from those with the knowledge and/or skills...  Those aren't ALWAYS available.   It's not like just because it was known" to the Grecian Hetarae 2500 years ago, it was equally available to peasants 1000 years ago...  Sometimes those "old wives tales" work, and sometimes they don't.

But women have always found a way not to carry a child to term if they don't want it.. Often with tragic results for both the woman and the child...  Just because a woman was a peasant doesn't mean she didn't have access to poisonous plants and herbs, or just have"accidents"  the local "wise woman" or witch, medicine woman would know ways..

6474
He thought it might have made a difference. I just don't see how it would have. The problem is we don't really know that much about how and what the Alphas do. It's mentioned repeatedly how hard it is to impress the dangers of the world on the young, so I'm not sure Harry could have changed anything by informing the Alphas that there are great and terrible powers out there.

I would have insisted on full disclosure if I were Billy too. I'm not a "no questions asked" kind of guy if I'm helping someone do something. It doesn't even have to be a dangerous something.

Especially when they themselves are werewolves and young, they might think they are pretty invulnerable...

6475
Here is the conversation in Fool Moon, paperback page -5 6...

Kim has just asked Harry several questions behind the theory of holding circles and how they work, she has drawn a picture of it.  He answers her about the first two rings,  then she asks about using a third...  He asks her if she copied it right..
Let's back up to the first page...  He is speaking of a full moon, then what Kim has shown him..

Quote
So I didn't know that it was one night shy of being full when a young woman sat down across from me in McAnally's pub and asked me to tell her all about something that could get her killed.
"No," I said.  "Absolutely not."  I folded the piece of paper, with the drawings of three concentric rings of spidery symbols, and slid it back over the polished oak-wood table." 
He goes on to warn her not to mess with it, even the knowledge is dangerous.  Page 2 she totally lies to him...
Quote
"Look, Harry," Kim said, "I'm not using this for anything serious, I promise.  I'm not trying any summoning or binding.  It's an academic interest only.

Page 3 Harry asks her again....
Quote
"You're sure?"  I asked her.  "This is just you trying to scratch an itch?"
"Cross my heart," she said, doing so...

He answers some of her questions and she eagerly takes notes until we get to the third inner circle..
Harry realizes there is something fishy a foot...
pages 5-6

Quote
I studied her face for a moment.  "If I read the symbols correctly, it's a third wall.  Built to withhold creatures of the flesh and the spirit.  Neither mortal nor spirit but somewhere in-between."
"What kind of creatures are like that?"
I shrugged.  "None," I said, and officially, it was true.  The White Council of wizards did not allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth, beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves.  Usually a spirit circle was enough to stop all but the most powerful demons or Elder Things of the outer reaches of the Nevernever.  But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries. It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels.

Harry stops giving her straight answers to her further questions and continues to warn her... She insists that she is strong enough to activate such a circle... He answers page 6
Quote
"You strength's go nothing to do with it."  I said.  "You don't have the training.  You don't have the knowledge
 

He goes on to tell her even if she did, he'd still warn her against it because if she made a mistake, it could hurt a lot of people... Then she gets pissed and stalks off...  Then on page 8

Harry adds talking to himself now...
Quote
To say nothing of what the White Council would think of a nonwizard toying with major summoning circles.  The White Council didn't take chances with things like that.  They just acted, decisively, and they weren't always particular about people's lives and safety when they did it.

1]  Kim never told Harry the truth..
2] That it was for a Loop never entered his mind, until he talked to Bob Harry had doubts that they
even existed
3] He thought he was helping her keep her head by not giving her anymore information, just knowing it was dangerous...
4] He had no idea that she was going to try and attempt it even without all the information she needed...  He really thought she had more sense...

Harry blames himself, but honestly if she wasn't willing to tell him the truth, what else could he have done but what he did do?
Mr Death
Quote
I think you can still lay some fault on Harry because Harry's reaction was just, "Don't do it and I'm not going to help you do it safely."

As the whole idea of abstinence-only education has shown, that's a laughably bad way to keep someone from doing something. Harry could have inquired more about why she was interested in it, especially since she did seem determined to look deeper with or without him.

See above, he did question her closely and she blew him off, and out and out lied to him... Consider how different it could have turned out,  if she had told him the truth about the Loop and what had happened... If I know our Harry, he would have  jumped up without finishing his steak and insisted that he be taken to the subject that so badly needed containing and do the circle himself..  However given those determined that the Loop get out, it still might not have been enough..


6476
There's also the semi-apprentice trying to create a cage with runes powerful enough to contain a Loup Garou.

  If I remember correctly Kim wasn't totally honest with Harry as to why she wanted this circle to start with.  Also the knowledge of how to make such a thing comes very close to breaking the rules that he lives under as a wizard and he had just recently had gotten the Doom removed from his head.  He also told her she didn't have the kind of juice to make such a thing..  He also warned her as to how dangerous it was to play with such a thing, since they not only hold Loops but also could
hold summoned demons..  Her answer was it was mostly hypothetical... She never directly told him
about the Loop.

6477
DF Spoilers / Re: A Question About Naagloshii
« on: June 02, 2019, 11:35:53 PM »
What if Grey's mother was a nun?  Given the evil proclivities of skinwalkers, I could imagine one raping a nun and impregnating her in order to torture her.  Having her know that her child was the offspring of a monster, but not believing in abortion (or perhaps abortion didn't exist back then) she would have to carry the child.

What if she decided to raise the scion to be good?  Naming him Goodman as a constant reminder to him.  Remember, he did the job for Harry for $1 iirc.  What if the "rent" he was paying was his saintly mother?

Torn between and evil father and a saintly mother, he is a mix of both.

 Abortion has existed as long as women have been having babies... Safety and legality is another matter, but if a woman doesn't want to give birth to a child, she will find a way not to...  It doesn't always work though, but the idea of a raped nun is interesting.. Or she doesn't have to be a nun, supposed the woman only saw the skin walker in his human form and fell in love having no idea until after she gave birth that his father was a monster?

6478
DF Spoilers / Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« on: June 02, 2019, 11:13:23 AM »
If you steal money while knowing that you did something rong . Even if you return the money afterwards to the last penny, it does not change the fact that you did a crime. It just show that you are remorseful. especially since you only return it after you are asked to do it or even pressured to do it. We may argue that Harry will return Bob voluntarily at the end, but since the text is as it is, we will never know.

I cannot remember, did Harry actually give the skull to Harry?  Or did Murphy because she was executor of his will?  And even if she did, since Harry never died, isn't the skull technically still his?

6479
DF Spoilers / Re: Any news on Peace Talks
« on: June 01, 2019, 03:48:33 PM »
If I did that someone would suggest that it wasn't good enough.  To be truly accurate we would need to compare the average number of words per chapter Jim has used over the past five or six books.  Plus, it wouldn't hurt to know the highest number of words in a chapter Jim has used per book and see if that number has changed significantly over time.  We could also do a character count per chapter, and divide that by the number of words per chapter to see if Jim's vocabulary for Harry and the other characters, plus the description of people, things, the environment, events and emotions have become more complex, meaning Jim is using bigger words, not just more of them.  Of course, some people might think that last suggestion is a bit too much, but aren't you a little bit curious to find out?   

Yeah, I think using the size of the words is going just a weeee bit to far.... ::)

6480
DF Spoilers / Re: I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
« on: June 01, 2019, 03:46:21 PM »
Quote
"A bit excessive"? It's a clear-cut case of police brutality! It would be bad enough if Murphy did that to someone she didn't know, and that she does it to someone we're supposed to believe she cares about says a lot about her as a person. A suspect is supposed to be arrested, yes, not assaulted when they aren't trying to fight back. And Murphy specifically punches Harry again when he tries to say something, and says "no more talking," so I do not believe she was going to listen to him when they got to the police station--more likely, given her behavior in this scene, she would have just punched him again when he tried to say that he was innocent.

The tragic part about it is a lot of good people died because she was closed minded about the Loop.

Pages: 1 ... 430 431 [432] 433 434 ... 502