The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Could Justin have been betrayed?

<< < (4/6) > >>

groinkick:
At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew.  I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.

Kindler:

--- Quote from: Cozarkian on April 10, 2019, 05:47:51 PM ---Another possibility is that Justin wasn't entirely bad. He was an "end justifies the means" kind of guy fighting against the Outsiders. He was training two Starborn to assist in that battle. The enthrallment could have been a method that Justin and his associates (including Harry's mother) had designed to test whether a person has been nemfected (and perhaps free them if they have been). Justin discovered evidence that an Outsider (HWWB) was in the area and needed to make sure that Elaine and Harry were free from influence. When Harry ran away, Justin had to assume Harry was either already compromised or would be soon.

This would mean HWWB wasn't actually sent by Justin to kill Harry. HWWB was Justin's enemy and was trying to trick Harry into killing Justin.

In sum, this theory would mean Justin was a misguided good guy, the kind that would use a darkhallow to save a little girl from Red Court vampires, the kind that Harry almost became. Of course, that would mean Justin probably isn't Cowl, unless there is some really twisty reason a misguided good guy would give a nemfected Athame to Leah.

--- End quote ---

Yeah, I've seen that brought up before, and it's possible, but I don't think it very likely. Not sure how enthralling someone would test them for Nemesis infection, and even if it was, it should've been something done way earlier; Harry and Elaine had lived with Justin for... what, six years? Infection should have been obvious by then, or they would've otherwise been tested thoroughly within a few months of adoption, at the latest. I don't see any way around Justin enthralling Elaine and Harry that doesn't involve nefarious motivation, even accounting for brutal, "do whatever it takes" ways of thinking. What purpose does bending them to his will serve?

Personally, I think Justin saw what was coming from the Outsiders, and wanted some Starborn around him before the coming Apocalypse. I think we'll find out more about him specifically during the lead-up (and probably during) the BAT.

Cozarkian:

--- Quote from: Kindler on April 10, 2019, 08:15:18 PM ---Infection should have been obvious by then,
--- End quote ---

Unless it was a recent infection. When Harry ran away, HWWB found him very quickly. What if Justin learned HWWB was in the area and then found out Elaine had skipped school and was acting strangely? Justin concludes her strange behavior is the result of infection (and he could be right) and conducts an enthrallment ritual to cleanse her. In GS, Harry and Molly have practice mind-wars to train in mental defense magic. It follows that Nemesis infection, which seems very similar to a form of enthrallment, might be countered by actual enthrallment magic.

When Harry gets home, Justin wants to test him too. Again, because Justin recently learned that an Outsider recently arrived in the area. When Harry runs away, that confirms (in Justin's mind) that Harry must have been recently infected. When Harry comes back, Justin tries to cleanse him. When Harry fights off the enthrallment, Justin decides to open a gate to the NN, push Elaine through where he knows someone from Summer will be there to help her, and then either died before he could escape himself or took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

I can think of several reasons why Justin decided to let Harry win after Harry resisted. First, Harry resisting the enthrallment proved he wasn't infected. Thus, Justin knew Harry was an innocent and didn't want to kill him but lacked the energy to incapacitate him again without hurting Harry. Second, with the house burning down and the heavy use of magic, Justin knew he wouldn't be able to subdue Harry, enthrall him to cleanse him and then hide Elaine and Harry without the White Council finding out. Or third, Justin was surprised by the display of power from Harry and was concerned Harry's new power might be from a deal with Outsiders. Thus, Justin couldn't be certain he could defeat Harry and focused his efforts on saving Elaine.

How would enthralling someone test them for Nemesis? In GS, we learn that Harry has been training Molly in mind magic in unsanctioned ways to defend against mental invasion magic. The way Nemfection works seems highly related to enthrallment, so it seems likely that enthrallment magic would be the most effective way to discover or reverse Nemfection.

If the above is true, then why did Justin wait so long? Well, enthrallment magic isn't benign and likely has the potential for permanent damage. Perhaps it is worse on young people so Justin wanted to avoid it as long as possible. Maybe Justin didn't ask Elaine to stay home from school. Maybe she did that on her own. Justin found the behavior suspicious and having also seen evidence there were Outsiders in the area, had reason to believe (perhaps correctly) that Elaine had been recently infected. When Justin tried to explain, Harry ran away instead of listening. When Harry came back,  Justin thought that Harry had also been infected and tried to enthrall/cleanse Harry. When Harry resisted the enthrallment, maybe that was sufficient proof he wasn't infected. Having discovered Harry wasn't infected, Justin didn't want to kill him, but as Harry provided no opportunity to explain, the best Justin could do is push Elaine into the NN where he knew someone from Summer would be waiting to help her and then took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew.  I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.
--- End quote ---

I get that. I just find it more unlikely that Justin let Harry kill him, given that if he's a good guy he should know that Harry then stands a good chance of being killed anyway when the White Council gets ahold of him, and if he's a bad guy I can't think of any reason for him to do so (rather than avoid the fight in the first place by not enthralling his apprentices).

(Unless the claim is that Kemmler took over Justin's body, in which case I can accept that the original!Justin or remnants of him interfered with Kemmler!Justin's attempt to kill Harry, allowing Harry to prevail.)

wardenferry419:

--- Quote from: groinkick on April 10, 2019, 08:02:28 PM ---At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew.  I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.

--- End quote ---
No more than a youngish Harry beating a fae Queen or an older Harry finding a way to take out a Vampire pantheon.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page