The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Could Justin have been betrayed?

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nadia.skylark:
I'm posting this because it's just occurred to me that I've been arguing against someone helping Harry to defeat Justin without actually stating my reason for holding that position.

My reasoning is this: I believe that certain things about that confrontation have to be true in order to support the narrative structure that has been built around them (that is, Harry's character development and the ethical questions that relate to the confrontation).

These are:
1) That Harry's mentor turned bad, was always bad, or at the least was doing something extremely bad.
2) That Harry realized this and fought him.
3) That Harry claimed victory in this fight.
4) That Harry's victory came at the cost of doing something unequivocally bad himself, namely that he broke the First Law.

I feel that if any of these points are demonstrated not to be true, then it will almost certainly come across as bad writing, and since Jim is a very good writer, he will not try to falsify any of these points.

Thus, the reason I object to someone helping Harry defeat Justin is because it would invalidate point 3--if someone helped him in the way that the poster(s) here have been implying, I feel that it would not be Harry's victory. It's not a problem that HWWB was manipulating him into being more willing to kill, or that Lea helped Harry, because in the end it was still Harry's victory. Likewise, I proposed the idea that (if Kemmler had taken over Justin, which I don't believe) original!Justin may have interfered with Kemmler!Justin, because Harry is still essential to that victory--original!Justin might be able to slow Kemmler!Justin down and make him hesitate, but he cannot stop him. I do object to theories that claim that Justin set the whole thing up and let him win, because it clearly subverts point 3, and may subvert points 1, 2, and 4, depending on what variation is proposed.

Kindler:

--- Quote from: Cozarkian on April 10, 2019, 10:51:47 PM ---Unless it was a recent infection. When Harry ran away, HWWB found him very quickly. What if Justin learned HWWB was in the area and then found out Elaine had skipped school and was acting strangely? Justin concludes her strange behavior is the result of infection (and he could be right) and conducts an enthrallment ritual to cleanse her. In GS, Harry and Molly have practice mind-wars to train in mental defense magic. It follows that Nemesis infection, which seems very similar to a form of enthrallment, might be countered by actual enthrallment magic.

When Harry gets home, Justin wants to test him too. Again, because Justin recently learned that an Outsider recently arrived in the area. When Harry runs away, that confirms (in Justin's mind) that Harry must have been recently infected. When Harry comes back, Justin tries to cleanse him. When Harry fights off the enthrallment, Justin decides to open a gate to the NN, push Elaine through where he knows someone from Summer will be there to help her, and then either died before he could escape himself or took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

I can think of several reasons why Justin decided to let Harry win after Harry resisted. First, Harry resisting the enthrallment proved he wasn't infected. Thus, Justin knew Harry was an innocent and didn't want to kill him but lacked the energy to incapacitate him again without hurting Harry. Second, with the house burning down and the heavy use of magic, Justin knew he wouldn't be able to subdue Harry, enthrall him to cleanse him and then hide Elaine and Harry without the White Council finding out. Or third, Justin was surprised by the display of power from Harry and was concerned Harry's new power might be from a deal with Outsiders. Thus, Justin couldn't be certain he could defeat Harry and focused his efforts on saving Elaine.

How would enthralling someone test them for Nemesis? In GS, we learn that Harry has been training Molly in mind magic in unsanctioned ways to defend against mental invasion magic. The way Nemfection works seems highly related to enthrallment, so it seems likely that enthrallment magic would be the most effective way to discover or reverse Nemfection.

If the above is true, then why did Justin wait so long? Well, enthrallment magic isn't benign and likely has the potential for permanent damage. Perhaps it is worse on young people so Justin wanted to avoid it as long as possible. Maybe Justin didn't ask Elaine to stay home from school. Maybe she did that on her own. Justin found the behavior suspicious and having also seen evidence there were Outsiders in the area, had reason to believe (perhaps correctly) that Elaine had been recently infected. When Justin tried to explain, Harry ran away instead of listening. When Harry came back,  Justin thought that Harry had also been infected and tried to enthrall/cleanse Harry. When Harry resisted the enthrallment, maybe that was sufficient proof he wasn't infected. Having discovered Harry wasn't infected, Justin didn't want to kill him, but as Harry provided no opportunity to explain, the best Justin could do is push Elaine into the NN where he knew someone from Summer would be waiting to help her and then took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

, enthrallment could potentially be a means of  The process of invading someone's min

--- End quote ---

I can see your point, but I disagree. To me, Nemesis infection seems a lot more like Assimilation than enthrallment. It's like the Borg. Or maybe a Denarian-type thing, wherein the Fallen overrides the bearer's consciousness and seizes the reins. The infection itself seems to have consciousness (at least, Harry spoke to it through Sith), so maybe it's closer to a Denarian Shadow, only significantly more juiced up; it seems to be able to rewrite the core of a person, to the point that they can break their own rules (Maeve can lie, Sith disobeys Mab's will, etc.) and outright possess them when the chips are down, so I don't see how that could be fixed by turning that person into a thrall. Aside from all of that, mortal magic slides right off Outsiders, so I doubt that a mortal enthralling another mortal would have any noticeable effect on someone who's infected—the only time we've seen mortal magic hit an Outsider is performed by Harry. And it took Mab years to cleanse Lea, and she wasn't able to help Maeve at all; it's doubtful Justin could've done much of anything.

Mira:


   I think it is strongly hinted in Ghost Story by Lea to Harry just before his flashback I believe that
Justin was double crossed...

groinkick:

--- Quote from: wardenferry419 on April 11, 2019, 01:27:39 AM ---No more than a youngish Harry beating a fae Queen or an older Harry finding a way to take out a Vampire pantheon.

--- End quote ---

Funny that you would use these two as examples when he had a great deal of help :)

groinkick:

--- Quote from: Mira on April 11, 2019, 04:04:54 PM ---
   I think it is strongly hinted in Ghost Story by Lea to Harry just before his flashback I believe that
Justin was double crossed...

--- End quote ---

I don't have the book handy, could you quote what she said please?

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