The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Could Justin have been betrayed?
groinkick:
Justin was a warden who ran around with Harry's mom. He had been part of the assault on Kemmler, he had access to Bob... In other words I think that Morgan was right, Harry should not have stood a chance against Justin in a fair fight. This begs the question, how could Harry have beat him?
I have a few lines of though.
1. Justin's magic was locked down by someone, rendering him defenseless against Harry.
2. Harry was tricked into killing the wrong person, allowing Justin to fake his own death.
3. Someone turbo charged Harry's power, overwhelming Justin's defenses.
I sometimes wonder if Elaine actually helped kill Justin... That she had been instructed to by HHWBehind, or another wizard?
I don't really know but after seeing how Harry (and other ambitious wizards) get more, and more powerful over time it just seems so unlikely Harry could have won. I mean imagine the Harry Dresden from Skin Game vs the Harry Dresden from Storm Front... It wouldn't even be a close fight, and Justin was much older than Harry is right now.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I don't really know but after seeing how Harry (and other ambitious wizards) get more, and more powerful over time it just seems so unlikely Harry could have won. I mean imagine the Harry Dresden from Skin Game vs the Harry Dresden from Storm Front... It wouldn't even be a close fight, and Justin was much older than Harry is right now.
--- End quote ---
I think part of it was that Justin underestimated Harry, and Harry probably got the drop on him. If Harry managed to surprise him by breaking Elaine's restraining spell and injured him, that would shift the odds. For the rest, Harry has said repeatedly that he's in the top 40 for raw power, and he mentioned in Skin Game that he'd win in fight where he used raw power to counter precision against most wizards. If Justin underestimated Harry, and was already hurt, I can see him just exhausting himself trying to subdue Harry.
In addition, Justin may not have necessarily been trying to kill Harry so much as restrain him, which would have limited what he could do to Harry.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on April 09, 2019, 06:22:30 PM ---I think part of it was that Justin underestimated Harry, and Harry probably got the drop on him. If Harry managed to surprise him by breaking Elaine's restraining spell and injured him, that would shift the odds. For the rest, Harry has said repeatedly that he's in the top 40 for raw power, and he mentioned in Skin Game that he'd win in fight where he used raw power to counter precision against most wizards. If Justin underestimated Harry, and was already hurt, I can see him just exhausting himself trying to subdue Harry.
In addition, Justin may not have necessarily been trying to kill Harry so much as restrain him, which would have limited what he could do to Harry.
--- End quote ---
He didn't get the jump on Justin.
Harry's raw power doesn't mean diddly in a lot of cases. As I said above, Jim said Harry would be easily defeated by those on the Senior Council. He even said that Morgan would have beaten him easily. I believe he said "Harry was to Morgan what Morgan was to Eb". So if Justin was anywhere near Morgan's level, he shouldn't have had any difficulty beating Harry.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---He didn't get the jump on Justin.
--- End quote ---
Only if you consider the comic books as canon. I generally don't, because the information revealed in the comic books doesn't appear to fit the timeline of when the comic books are supposed to take place.
--- Quote ---Harry's raw power doesn't mean diddly in a lot of cases. As I said above, Jim said Harry would be easily defeated by those on the Senior Council. He even said that Morgan would have beaten him easily. I believe he said "Harry was to Morgan what Morgan was to Eb". So if Justin was anywhere near Morgan's level, he shouldn't have had any difficulty beating Harry.
--- End quote ---
Harry explicitly says in Skin Game that his raw power allows him to counter other wizards' skill. Here's the quote:
--- Quote ---The second sphere came flying at me and I countered by lifting my staff and shouting "Defendarius!" A broad wall of force shimmered into being in front of me, and the sphere smashed against it and exploded into a cloud of flame that spread out along its length and breadth, as if seeking a way around it. The heat was viciously intense, and enough of it would have burned through the shield--but it was a question of volume. Ascher had struck at me with pinpoint precision and intensity. I'd countered her with raw power, using a shield big enough to spread the heat over a wide enough area to keep it from burning through.
Ascher let out a snarl of frustration and hurled another sphere. Her thinking was obvious--if she could keep pouring fire onto me and force me to hold up shield after shield against it, eventually she could either burn through it or exhaust my ability to keep holding it up. I'd have taken that fight against a lot of practitioners: There are relatively few wizards on the White Council who can stay with me in terms of pure magical horsepower. But while there are plenty of wizards who could wear themselves out pounding on my shields. I had a pretty solid intuition that Ascher could keep throwing fire until I was a gasping heap on the ground, especially with Lasciel's knowledge and experience backing her up.
--- End quote ---
Note that Harry has previously said that Hannah was Senior Council-level with fire magic. Justin was not Senior Council-level; I seriously doubt he was even Morgan-level, given that Morgan was known to be one of, if not the most dangerous Wardens; and I absolutely believe that if Justin was trying to blast through Harry's shield then he would be one of the wizards who would exhaust themselves trying to break through.
Remember, per Ghost Story Justin wasn't teaching Harry offensive magic, so he would have no reason to suspect that Harry could pull off a decent offense. I don't think Harry could win by slinging attacks, but if he had the sense to mostly defend himself at first then I believe that Justin could, and likely would, wear himself out trying to break Harry's shield, until it got to the point where Harry could launch a successful attack against Justin.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on April 09, 2019, 11:39:20 PM ---Only if you consider the comic books as canon. I generally don't, because the information revealed in the comic books doesn't appear to fit the timeline of when the comic books are supposed to take place.
--- End quote ---
fair enough
--- Quote ---Harry explicitly says in Skin Game that his raw power allows him to counter other wizards' skill. Here's the quote:
Note that Harry has previously said that Hannah was Senior Council-level with fire magic.
--- End quote ---
First he said "White Council".. Harry is White Council. Anyone considered a wizard is White Council. Not only that but does he really know what a Senior Council member can do with fire magic? I don't think so. He's never fought a Senior member of the Council before. He's witnessed some of them using fire, but not in any kind of desperate situation where they were really unloading.
--- Quote ---Justin was not Senior Council-level;
--- End quote ---
Pure speculation. We don't know what level he was at. Being on the Senior Council has a great deal to do with #1 power, #2. age. Eb for example is extremely powerful, and holds the position of Blackstaff. He had been captain of the Wardens. He was not Senior Council at that point, yet was much much more powerful than Harry is right now.
--- Quote ---I seriously doubt he was even Morgan-level, given that Morgan was known to be one of, if not the most dangerous Wardens;
--- End quote ---
That could be the case, but neither of us knows.
--- Quote ---and I absolutely believe that if Justin was trying to blast through Harry's shield then he would be one of the wizards who would exhaust themselves trying to break through.
--- End quote ---
Justin taught Harry his defensive magic, if anyone knew how to get around it, he would. Look at the Wards Harry used in his home. Elaine knew exactly how to get around them because he used the same ones he used as a teenager.
Finally, Harry has been proven to not always be a reliable source of information. Not only that but when he makes statements about what "Senior Council members can do", it's nonsense. He has not once squared off with someone on the Senior Council. He's barely even spoken to someone on the Council besides Eb who became a member in Summer Knight.
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