The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Could Justin have been betrayed?

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wardenferry419:

--- Quote from: groinkick on April 11, 2019, 05:44:29 PM ---Funny that you would use these two as examples when he had a great deal of help :)

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Yep, he had help. He usually does at some point. But, there is often point where it is all Harry.

morriswalters:

--- Quote from: groinkick on April 11, 2019, 05:46:15 PM ---I don't have the book handy, could you quote what she said please?

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I don't know about Lea, but it comes up in a discussion that Harry is having with Bob when he visits him in the skull. Harry realizes that rather than HWWB being controlled by Justin it might have been the other way, and that HWWB may have back stabbed Justin.  My Kindle ver has it as page 375.

Maz:
Just to add to the evidence bin:

For scope of raw, magical muscle (assumed to be ultimate potential), we have Sue.  Luccio, head of the Wardens, attested to the sheer magical horsepower of what was accomplished, to be terrifying.  I don't have my books with me but I'm pretty certain she was certain that few if any other wizards could have pulled that off.  Yes, special night and whatnot but it was still apparently epic.  I believe Harry described it like lifting an engine block - nothing fancy just a tremendous amount of work/exertion.

For Harry's magical muscle/potential, we also have the opinions of tons of people that seem to hold Harry as "exceptional" - all of the necromancers thought he had tremendous potential as a student as well as evil Bob (something like "oh the master would have favored you"). Cowl.  Grevane.  etc. 

Heck, Nicodemus thinks he has tremendous potential.  Most of the Senior Council including the Gatekeeper think he's exceedingly dangerous even to them.  Is he there today?  No.  He is 40 years old or so and they are a few hundred...  But someone who can magically bench 800 lbs... even without skill... if they get lucky, can mess you up. 

On a side note, I'd totally agree that HWWB probably double-crossed Justin and that's how it happened.  But just wanted to add two bits regarding that I don't see Harry being arrogant regarding his raw power - actually the opposite.  I think he's being overly humble but recognizes at the same time that his power doesn't amount to much compared to a few hundred years of skill refinement.

Cozarkian:

--- Quote from: Kindler on April 11, 2019, 02:52:38 PM ---I can see your point, but I disagree. To me, Nemesis infection seems a lot more like Assimilation than enthrallment. It's like the Borg. Or maybe a Denarian-type thing, wherein the Fallen overrides the bearer's consciousness and seizes the reins. The infection itself seems to have consciousness (at least, Harry spoke to it through Sith), so maybe it's closer to a Denarian Shadow, only significantly more juiced up; it seems to be able to rewrite the core of a person, to the point that they can break their own rules (Maeve can lie, Sith disobeys Mab's will, etc.) and outright possess them when the chips are down, so I don't see how that could be fixed by turning that person into a thrall. Aside from all of that, mortal magic slides right off Outsiders, so I doubt that a mortal enthralling another mortal would have any noticeable effect on someone who's infected—the only time we've seen mortal magic hit an Outsider is performed by Harry. And it took Mab years to cleanse Lea, and she wasn't able to help Maeve at all; it's doubtful Justin could've done much of anything.

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The fact that Nemesis can change an entity's mind is precisely why enthrallment, which requires changing a person's mind, would be a logical counter. And it might not specifically be enthrallment, it could be something that looks like enthrallment or something that requires enthrallment before it can be safely performed. Regardless of the specifics of the method, it makes sense that some kind of mind-magic that skirts the lines of the laws would be a solution to the mind-invasion by Nemesis. Since it requires violation of the laws, it literally can't be performed by Mab and wouldn't be discovered by the White Council. Also, Outsider resistance is a non-issue because you aren't hitting Nemesis with magic, you are using magic on the victim in a way that makes the host unsuitable.

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