The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Could Justin have been betrayed?

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Yuillegan:
Nadia, groinkick I think covers this pretty well.

Harry's whole assertion he is in the top forty wizards in terms of magical muscle (out of what, 5000 wizards?) has always been a bit arrogant. He barely has any idea of what the others are capable of. He doesn't go very regularly to Council meetings, and he has been asserting that statement since the beginning. Only recently has he even seen any of them in action. Jim also says that most Wizards, especially Senior Council types hide how much power they really have (I say types as there are quite a few wizards who are probably powerful enough and senior enough to be on the Senior Council, like Eb was, but aren't - take Klaus Schneider the Toymaker for instance).

But even if Harry was top-40, then Justin is would be top-15. We must also consider, Wizards get stronger as they age and as their knowledge increases and their technique gets refined their spells get much more energy efficient (see Luccio in battle). So Harry's knowledge about Senior Council level abilities is pretty small. We have had very few demonstrations of Senior Council magic, and all of them have been incredible. Well beyond anything Hannah Ascher ever did.

We know next to nothing about the actual duel, nothing about Justin's abilities (apart from that no one believe Harry could have beaten him and that he taught Harry most of his foundational magic). Justin would have watched Harry's method for both offensive and defensive magic. He would know his magical flaws, and his psychological ones. So even if Dresden got the jump on him, unless he took him out straight away, any extended duel would not have been in Harry's favor. Now perhaps Harry did have help, perhaps there were actors that assisted him unknowingly. I suppose it all depends on how you see the circumstances. If Justin intended to lose that duel for a greater victory, then probably the person helping Harry was Justin! But if Justin was taken by surprise (whether he improvised a solution to survive the outcome, or whether he was actually murdered) then perhaps there were other players. Elaine is a good one, though if she were trying to fight off an Enthrallment I find that difficult to believe. Outsiders, Circle/Black Council, some other player? Impossible to say without further information. Harry's magic being turbo-charged is interesting - though I am sure he would have noticed some extra power unless he was unleashing some special power of his own.

I even wonder if Harry's memories are accurate of the whole thing. That whole scene in Ghost Story with Leah where he relives the whole HWWBH experience is rather telling. And Jim enjoyed torturing us by giving us a whole bunch of new questions, and someone to answer them and have Harry ask some completely different ones. I wonder if someone has tampered with his memories of that fight.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---First he said "White Council"..  Harry is White Council.  Anyone considered a wizard is White Council.
--- End quote ---

Um, yes? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.


--- Quote ---Not only that but does he really know what a Senior Council member can do with fire magic?  I don't think so.  He's never fought a Senior member of the Council before.  He's witnessed some of them using fire, but not in any kind of desperate situation where they were really unloading.
--- End quote ---

He has, however, seen Luccio use fire magic in a desperate situation, so he has an idea of what high-level fire magic looks like. He's also seen the Merlin use what Jim says is his most powerful skill, and heard about what he did with wards, so he knows approximately what level of ability is Senior Council-level. In addition, what he says is that Hannah's fire magic is something "he would barely have believed" from a Senior Council member, so even if he's underestimating what the Senior Council can do, there's still enough leeway to say that she's Senior Council-level with fire magic.


--- Quote ---Pure speculation.  We don't know what level he was at.  Being on the Senior Council has a great deal to do with #1 power, #2. age.  Eb for example is extremely powerful, and holds the position of Blackstaff.  He had been captain of the Wardens.  He was not Senior Council at that point, yet was much much more powerful than Harry is right now. 

That could be the case, but neither of us knows.
--- End quote ---

I believe that Justin was not extraordinarily powerful for two reasons. The first is statistics: it is exceedingly unlikely that Justin was super-powerful, because only a small percentage of wizards can be super-powerful, and of them a percentage are given important and notable positions, which I think we can assume that Justin did not have, or LaFortier would definitely have brought it up when he was accusing Harry of murdering Justin in his sleep. The second reason is that if he were super-powerful, you'd expect someone to say something at some point. The subject has come up with wizards who could be expected to know, had no reason not to say so, and in one case had compelling reason to say so, and none of them did.


--- Quote ---Justin taught Harry his defensive magic, if anyone knew how to get around it, he would.  Look at the Wards Harry used in his home.  Elaine knew exactly how to get around them because he used the same ones he used as a teenager. 
--- End quote ---

You appear to be disregarding Lea. She convinced Harry that his magic was stronger, thereby making it stronger because Harry was more confident. She may also have taught him some magic/given him time to practice, considering that in Ghost Story Harry says that when he went to confront Justin, he had a new blasting rod and staff.


--- Quote ---Finally, Harry has been proven to not always be a reliable source of information.  Not only that but when he makes statements about what "Senior Council members can do", it's nonsense.  He has not once squared off with someone on the Senior Council.  He's barely even spoken to someone on the Council besides Eb who became a member in Summer Knight.
--- End quote ---

Okay, not being a reliable source of information does not mean that we get to disregard everything he says. Harry has plenty of ways to know how powerful a Senior Council-level wizard is: he's a wizard and can be expected to know about magic, he has Bob, and he lived with Ebenezer for two years, just to start.


--- Quote ---Harry's whole assertion he is in the top forty wizards in terms of magical muscle (out of what, 5000 wizards?) has always been a bit arrogant. He barely has any idea of what the others are capable of. He doesn't go very regularly to Council meetings, and he has been asserting that statement since the beginning. Only recently has he even seen any of them in action.
--- End quote ---

He lived with Ebenezer for two years and has Bob. There is every reason to believe, therefore, that he is not just making up the power thing, and actually has evidence to support it. Also, Luccio agrees with him in Small Favor when they are talking about the power needed to contain the Archive, implying heavily that he is in the top of wizards' power range.


--- Quote ---Jim also says that most Wizards, especially Senior Council types hide how much power they really have (I say types as there are quite a few wizards who are probably powerful enough and senior enough to be on the Senior Council, like Eb was, but aren't - take Klaus Schneider the Toymaker for instance).
--- End quote ---

I'm pretty sure what he actually said was that most wizards, especially Senior Council types, have "emergency power sources" like the deals that Harry has been offered, which they do not advertise.


--- Quote ---But even if Harry was top-40, then Justin is would be top-15.
--- End quote ---

What? Where on Earth does this come from?


--- Quote ---We have had very few demonstrations of Senior Council magic, and all of them have been incredible. Well beyond anything Hannah Ascher ever did.
--- End quote ---

Okay, no. You may think that they are less impressive, but Harry, who is not only a wizard but one with a lot of experience in magic, thinks otherwise. In this case, I'm going to say that the wizard probably knows more about how difficult magic is than we readers do.


--- Quote ---Justin would have watched Harry's method for both offensive and defensive magic.
--- End quote ---

Nope. Harry says in Ghost Story that Justin did not teach Harry offensive magic.


--- Quote ---He would know his magical flaws, and his psychological ones.
--- End quote ---

Which I have reason to believe Lea helped him with. At least, that's how I interpret her torturing him to give him more confidence--it certainly sounds like her getting rid of at least one of his most exploitable psychological/magical flaws.


--- Quote ---So even if Dresden got the jump on him, unless he took him out straight away, any extended duel would not have been in Harry's favor.
--- End quote ---

If Justin were injured, possibly bleeding or something, and also hammering at Harry's unexpectedly-strong shield, I still believe that he would weaken enough faster than Dresden that Dresden would have a chance to get him (or get the house, since that burned down) with fire in the endgame of the fight.

apgrey:
  It has been speculated in previous threads that Harry had the relationship HWWB and Justin backwards.  That is, Harry thought HWWB was summoned by Justin and under his control.  But the flashback scene in Ghost Story does not support this.  Some people think HWWB was calling the shots, and so may have decided to betray and sacrifice Justin.
  I think Harry's memory of his fight with Justin is garbled and incomplete.  Specifically, I think Justin tried to enthrall Harry, and partially succeeded.  Harry is still suffering the effects of this, including anger management issues and memory problems.
  I also think there was more than one fight between Harry and Justin.  The first was the one described in Ghost Story, where Harry flees from Justin.  He then met with the Leanansidhe, and spent some time with her.  He returned to confront Justin and rescue Elaine.  Justin defeated Harry in this second fight and took him prisoner.  Justin tried to enthrall Harry with Elaine's help.  Harry broke free, and in the third fight killed Justin.
  The above is not described in the books, but I do think it may be what actually happened.

APG

Yuillegan:
It is logical that Justin was stronger - he is older. Harry is 16, Justin may have been anywhere between 50 and 70 (remember, wizards age slow). Justin was a Wardern. Out of however many White Council wizards, there are only approximately (+/- 10%) 200 Wardens. Not a damn lot, which is why they would only choose the strongest, most skilled Wizards (assuming they have the talent for Evocations). The oldest Wardens are between 100 and 200 years old (if Luccio and Morgan are anything to go by; remember when it comes to Wizards age tends to denote seniority). So likely not many older than them. Justin as a senior Warden (trained by one of the strongest Wizards in the world, Simon Pietrovitch) is not going to be some slouch. If Harry is top-40 at 25 (!), even for a prodigy he still is not going to surpass everyone. Justin has had plenty of time to grow and get strong, magically speaking. So assuming Harry is stronger than 2/3 of the Wardens, there are still going to be a fair few stronger - the old guard. Of which Justin was likely one. So is Justin going to be number 200, or is he going to be somewhere near the top? I think it is pretty obvious.

Justin doesn't have to be super powerful to be more powerful than Harry. Now while several Wizards have commented on Harry's magical muscle (point of order: it would help if they mentioned how they calculated magical muscle), it especially looks good because he is so young. But despite all his muscle, he isn't good at using it. Especially in the earlier books, Harry mentions this several times. So at 16, he is going to have awful energy efficiency. Which compared to a highly trained wizard soldier/police, who has been around and gathering power for several decades (think of how much better Harry is at magical combat after only 2 decades) even a 16 year old prodigy with some help from Leah (which remember, was just Dumbo's feather) is going to be nowhere near Justin's power. Think Mayweather vs 16 year old. It isn't a contest, even if the kid is naturally talented.

Just because he lived with Eb does not mean he really understood what Eb's limits where - he was only just learning the basics then (the equivalent of completing his final years of highschool). He may have some understanding about magic limits in general, but time and time again he is astonished and surprised by some part of magic that he had no idea about or didn't believe was possible.

So, what JB actually said when discussing Senior Council power sources was that they each have hidden deals/power sources that they don't tell each other about. Which makes a lot of sense, considering they have had centuries to accumulate power. But they arn't just "in case of emergency". Harry being the White Knight doesn't just stop when he doesn't need it. The same would apply. Which is not to say they don't have hidden nukes for when the shit hits the fan, but JB was answering a question about hidden power sources.

What I think about Senior Council displays of magic is irrelevant; it is Harry who found them incredible. The Merlin and the Gatekeeper stopping an army of Outsiders and Ramps with a single ward was considered amazing. The Merlin communicating his battle plan and restoring order in a split second was considered exceptional. Ebenezar's entire list of achievements (Krakatoa, Tunguska, killing Ortega with a satellite etc not to mention with a word destroying the top of El Castille at Chichen Itza and wiping out those mercenaries). La Fortier (I think) using illusion magic on an entire nation (that one was from JB). Simon's Death Curse leveling the Red Court's army at Archangel. Listen's-to-Wind duel with the Shagnasty (and he could have gone harder). Hannah Ascher's most incredible piece of magic was protecting herself from Fire in the Underworld. Followed up by her blowtorch spell. Not exactly in the same league.

Well, even if Justin never taught Harry offensive magic, that would have made Harry even weaker. Perhaps Leah taught him a lesson or two, perhaps not. But he had literally never fought anyone with magic before. Strangely enough though, even if Harry says that he worked out how to fight HWWBH pretty quickly. Either way Harry was still in a load of trouble.

Lots of assumptions, not a lot of proof. We do not know how Harry and Justin dueled or if Justin would have even fought Harry and smashed at his shield. But if we follow your theory, Justin is injured by Harry's surprise attack. Why doesn't he use his Warden blade or shoot him or use a magical device on him? Why not control the fire himself? Justin was skilled enough to do such a thing (remember how he sets his hand ablaze) yet Harry's magic overwhelmed him? As I said before - if Justin wanted to win that duel, he should have. The only real possibility is that he never intended to win in the first place, with all the implications that come with that. 

Yuillegan:
Sorry to double post.

APG - really interesting, I had totally forgotten there was a third final duel after Harry was defeated in the second. Well that back my point up even bloody stronger - Harry didn't win even after being prepared. He lost and was captured. It was only after he somehow broke free and got the jump on Justin (and saved Bob) that he won. How very interesting. And yes, the Dark Ritual were Harry had to drink blood and was being Enthralled may have effected him permanently, whether he is aware of it is something else.

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