The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Could Justin have been betrayed?
Kindler:
I do think it's possible that Justin was betrayed, for a bunch of reasons. Mostly, I think what he did to Elaine and tried to do to Harry was extremely sloppy. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to enthrall Elaine or Harry at all at that point. They were kids desperate for love and affection; Harry and Elaine, both of whom lived through The System and did not want to go back, would have likely already done pretty much whatever Justin wanted, short of murder. Getting them to that point would mostly be a matter of time and further manipulation—get the kids to do something violent for him, something small, and work your way up to it. In the end, you'd have a much more effective flunky if they can act on their own out of devotion rather than compulsion. I mean, there are chances for wizards to throw off mental control, even really, really effective mental attacks (for instance, Elaine in White Night throws off the Skavis's mental assault, albeit with a metaphorical slap across the face from Harry). Enthralling Harry and Elaine just doesn't make sense for the long term—and what the hell was up with the straitjacket? That's a total rookie move.
Anyway, that scene, as described in Ghost Story, makes me believe that Justin had to alter his plans because something happened (or was about to happen), and his timeline had to radically shift. For whatever reason, he absolutely had to have Harry and Elaine under tight control, now.
One possible explanation is that the White Court was gunning for Justin, which is where He Who Walks Behind came from, and he needed a pair of Starborn to handle him/her/it. Alternately, he was simply betrayed by another ally who was going to sell him out to the Council, and he had to go on the run. Alter-alternately, Justin just got impatient and lost a few dozen IQ points.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on April 10, 2019, 04:36:49 AM ---Um, yes? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.
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Nearly all your argument? Warden's are a different level of wizard. They are feared amongst other wizards. Just because Harry can withstand a lot of wizards on the White Council (all wizards on Earth) doesn't mean he could wear down a warden who specializes in combat magic.
You yourself stated that Morgan was one of the most if not the most powerful Wardens, right? He didn't think Dresden could beat Justin. Wouldn't you say Morgan is an expert? Wouldn't he know? Or is he not very knowledgeable? He knew Justin's level of power, he's seen what Dresden could do... He made the assessment that Harry shouldn't have been able to win.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Specifically, I think Justin tried to enthrall Harry, and partially succeeded. Harry is still suffering the effects of this, including anger management issues and memory problems.
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I'd always assumed that the anger management issues were a result of breaking the Laws.
--- Quote ---I also think there was more than one fight between Harry and Justin. The first was the one described in Ghost Story, where Harry flees from Justin. He then met with the Leanansidhe, and spent some time with her. He returned to confront Justin and rescue Elaine. Justin defeated Harry in this second fight and took him prisoner. Justin tried to enthrall Harry with Elaine's help. Harry broke free, and in the third fight killed Justin.
The above is not described in the books, but I do think it may be what actually happened.
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This makes sense.
--- Quote ---It is logical that Justin was stronger - he is older. Harry is 16, Justin may have been anywhere between 50 and 70 (remember, wizards age slow). Justin was a Wardern. Out of however many White Council wizards, there are only approximately (+/- 10%) 200 Wardens. Not a damn lot, which is why they would only choose the strongest, most skilled Wizards (assuming they have the talent for Evocations). The oldest Wardens are between 100 and 200 years old (if Luccio and Morgan are anything to go by; remember when it comes to Wizards age tends to denote seniority). So likely not many older than them. Justin as a senior Warden (trained by one of the strongest Wizards in the world, Simon Pietrovitch) is not going to be some slouch. If Harry is top-40 at 25 (!), even for a prodigy he still is not going to surpass everyone. Justin has had plenty of time to grow and get strong, magically speaking. So assuming Harry is stronger than 2/3 of the Wardens, there are still going to be a fair few stronger - the old guard. Of which Justin was likely one. So is Justin going to be number 200, or is he going to be somewhere near the top? I think it is pretty obvious.
Justin doesn't have to be super powerful to be more powerful than Harry. Now while several Wizards have commented on Harry's magical muscle (point of order: it would help if they mentioned how they calculated magical muscle), it especially looks good because he is so young.
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Okay, there seems to be some confusion here. I'm talking about raw magical muscle when I talk about Justin not being super-powerful. We have WoJ that wizards don't gain raw magical muscle as they age (actually, we have WoJ that Harry hasn't, and I feel it's safe to extrapolate), they just get better at using what they have. I absolutely agree that Justin would be far more skilled than Harry--that is why I brought up what Harry said about using raw power to counter skill.
Also, we know that the Wardens don't select people based on raw magical power, because we have a WoJ that Molly would be a good Warden.
--- Quote ---But despite all his muscle, he isn't good at using it. Especially in the earlier books, Harry mentions this several times. So at 16, he is going to have awful energy efficiency. Which compared to a highly trained wizard soldier/police, who has been around and gathering power for several decades (think of how much better Harry is at magical combat after only 2 decades) even a 16 year old prodigy with some help from Leah (which remember, was just Dumbo's feather) is going to be nowhere near Justin's power.
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Justin also would have gone into that battle the way Harry goes into a lot of fights--tired, probably hurt, having used his magic for a bunch of things already. And what Lea's training has to have done is enhance Harry's ability to deal with being in that state--she did spend days at least torturing him.
Think of it in terms of Harry's fight with Victor Sells. We have WoJ that Harry's skill compared to Victor's lack thereof means that if they're both going into the fight on equal terms then Harry wins that fight 19 times out of 20. But in the book, Harry nearly loses, because of the circumstances he finds himself in. The only way he wins is by being smart and taking advantage of his opponent's screw up.
Compare that to the fight between Harry and Justin Dumorne (fight 3): Dumorne has just gotten attacked by Harry, and may have gotten hurt. Instead of resting, he almost certainly moved straight into setting up the ritual to enthrall Harry. Then he gets jumped unexpectedly by Harry and maybe gets hurt again. That's the state he's in when the fight begins. Harry, on the other hand, may be tired from the last fight with Justin by may have some time to recover (he was either knocked out or tied up, rather than running around trying to prepare a ritual), but he's probably not hurt, because Justin still wants to use him and would therefore try to avoid damaging him. He's also gotten the drop on Justin, maybe hurt him, and we know he's still thinking because that was how he managed to escape Elaine's binding spell. Even if he is hurt/tired, he's going to be coping with that better than Justin expects him to. Given all of that, I don't find it remarkably unbelievable that Harry won that fight.
--- Quote ---Just because he lived with Eb does not mean he really understood what Eb's limits where - he was only just learning the basics then (the equivalent of completing his final years of highschool).
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It means he had extended exposure to someone who is Senior Council-level. It might not have taught him specifics, but it should have let him get a sense of power levels.
--- Quote ---So, what JB actually said when discussing Senior Council power sources was that they each have hidden deals/power sources that they don't tell each other about. Which makes a lot of sense, considering they have had centuries to accumulate power. But they arn't just "in case of emergency". Harry being the White Knight doesn't just stop when he doesn't need it. The same would apply. Which is not to say they don't have hidden nukes for when the shit hits the fan, but JB was answering a question about hidden power sources.
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Fair enough.
--- Quote ---What I think about Senior Council displays of magic is irrelevant; it is Harry who found them incredible. The Merlin and the Gatekeeper stopping an army of Outsiders and Ramps with a single ward was considered amazing. The Merlin communicating his battle plan and restoring order in a split second was considered exceptional. Ebenezar's entire list of achievements (Krakatoa, Tunguska, killing Ortega with a satellite etc not to mention with a word destroying the top of El Castille at Chichen Itza and wiping out those mercenaries). La Fortier (I think) using illusion magic on an entire nation (that one was from JB). Simon's Death Curse leveling the Red Court's army at Archangel. Listen's-to-Wind duel with the Shagnasty (and he could have gone harder). Hannah Ascher's most incredible piece of magic was protecting herself from Fire in the Underworld. Followed up by her blowtorch spell. Not exactly in the same league.
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See, this is the problem. You say that what you think about displays of magic is irrelevant compared to what Harry thinks, but then the minute Harry disagrees with you you turn around and say "no, actually he's wrong." Harry did find the Senior Council's displays of power incredible; he also found Hannah's fire magic incredible, and classed it in the same league. That you don't find it as impressive is irrelevant.
--- Quote ---But if we follow your theory, Justin is injured by Harry's surprise attack. Why doesn't he use his Warden blade or shoot him or use a magical device on him?
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Because he didn't have them with him, probably. We've seen Harry preparing for ritual magic, and doing magic in his lab. He doesn't keep his weapons on hand for either of these things. I feel that it's fair to assume that Justin wouldn't, either. Remember, he's got Elaine restraining Harry at this point.
--- Quote ---Why not control the fire himself? Justin was skilled enough to do such a thing (remember how he sets his hand ablaze) yet Harry's magic overwhelmed him?
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Because it's harder controlling outside fire than the fire you conjure yourself. Remember, we've seen Harry hold fire in his hand as well, but he still says that he can't control outside fire like Hannah did.
--- Quote ---As I said before - if Justin wanted to win that duel, he should have. The only real possibility is that he never intended to win in the first place, with all the implications that come with that.
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No, it isn't the only real possibility. Even if you discount everything I've said, Jim has said repeatedly that there is an element of chance in fights. He's said that it is technically possible for Harry to beat the Merlin, it's just not likely. He's said that it is technically possible for Harry to beat Mab, it's just not likely. None of my arguments are needed to establish the possibility of Harry winning his fight with Justin. That possibility is built into the world that Jim created. All my arguments do is shift the odds.
--- Quote ---Anyway, that scene, as described in Ghost Story, makes me believe that Justin had to alter his plans because something happened (or was about to happen), and his timeline had to radically shift. For whatever reason, he absolutely had to have Harry and Elaine under tight control, now.
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This makes a lot of sense.
--- Quote ---Nearly all your argument? Warden's are a different level of wizard. They are feared amongst other wizards. Just because Harry can withstand a lot of wizards on the White Council (all wizards on Earth) doesn't mean he could wear down a warden who specializes in combat magic.
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Okay. I'd just assumed that he was talking about combat-capable wizards, which would include wardens. It wouldn't make much sense for him to say "I can win a fight against all the wizards who don't know how to fight," after all.
--- Quote ---You yourself stated that Morgan was one of the most if not the most powerful Wardens, right? He didn't think Dresden could beat Justin. Wouldn't you say Morgan is an expert? Wouldn't he know? Or is he not very knowledgeable? He knew Justin's level of power, he's seen what Dresden could do... He made the assessment that Harry shouldn't have been able to win.
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No, in this case I would not consider Morgan an expert. His judgement is clearly flawed when it comes to Harry in the early books (which I assume is when he says that Dresden couldn't beat Justin. I don't remember that bit. Would you mind providing quotes?). Morgan does not believe that Justin was a warlock at this point. He believes that Harry is a warlock and a murderer. When trying to decide if Harry could have beaten Justin in a fight vs would he have had to murder Justin in his sleep, Morgan is extremely biased and his judgment should not be trusted.
(If Morgan says that Harry could not beat Justin at some point after Dead Beat, I will retract my statements here. But I don't believe he does so.)
Cozarkian:
--- Quote from: Kindler on April 10, 2019, 02:07:46 PM ---Anyway, that scene, as described in Ghost Story, makes me believe that Justin had to alter his plans because something happened (or was about to happen), and his timeline had to radically shift. For whatever reason, he absolutely had to have Harry and Elaine under tight control, now.
--- End quote ---
Another possibility is that Justin wasn't entirely bad. He was an "end justifies the means" kind of guy fighting against the Outsiders. He was training two Starborn to assist in that battle. The enthrallment could have been a method that Justin and his associates (including Harry's mother) had designed to test whether a person has been nemfected (and perhaps free them if they have been). Justin discovered evidence that an Outsider (HWWB) was in the area and needed to make sure that Elaine and Harry were free from influence. When Harry ran away, Justin had to assume Harry was either already compromised or would be soon.
This would mean HWWB wasn't actually sent by Justin to kill Harry. HWWB was Justin's enemy and was trying to trick Harry into killing Justin.
In sum, this theory would mean Justin was a misguided good guy, the kind that would use a darkhallow to save a little girl from Red Court vampires, the kind that Harry almost became. Of course, that would mean Justin probably isn't Cowl, unless there is some really twisty reason a misguided good guy would give a nemfected Athame to Leah.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Of course, that would mean Justin probably isn't Cowl, unless there is some really twisty reason a misguided good guy would give a nemfected Athame to Leah.
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Because he didn't know it was nemfected, and wanted to give a powerful weapon to someone highly placed on the anti-Outsider team.
(Note that I don't actually think Justin is Cowl, but for completely different reasons--I feel that it would undermine large parts of Harry's character, as well as messing up the black magic thing that the books have been dealing with.)
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