Turncoat

[EBRIEN]

Obviously, I've been rereading. 

Near the end of Turncoat, Dresden and McCoy are talking about the fact that Peabody wasn't by himself on the island. Who was the 2nd person? Did we find out and I missed it along the way? Do we think this was Cowl joining him in Chicago? Some other Black Council wizard/entity?

Hope all are well. Cheers!

Brien

[Talby16]

I have always assumed it was Black Council. Cowl or Kumori are the most likely suspects because they are the ones we have met. There are most likely other Black Council members, but I think at this point it will be someone we know in the shadows not someone we haven't seen yet.

[g33k]

... Near the end of Turncoat, Dresden and McCoy are talking about the fact that Peabody wasn't by himself on the island. Who was the 2nd person? Did we find out and I missed it along the way? Do we think this was Cowl joining him in Chicago? Some other Black Council wizard/entity? ...

The "most sensible" answer, IMO -- and almost certainly, the wrong one -- is one of the Wardens, as a bodyguard.  It'd make excellent tactico-strategic sense to bring one along; and he has ample mental controls in place to do so (he had Luccio commit murder against a senior council member!), so bringing along a "fine thrall" combat-wizard looks like a very good tactical move.

But, of course, that's just a narrative dead end; there's fundamentally no mystery in that, no "payoff" in dropping the hint, little to no interesting "reveal" later as to who it was.

How about it being Cristos, or some other White Council member (maybe one who's also Black Council)?

[Talby16]

The "most sensible" answer, IMO -- and almost certainly, the wrong one -- is one of the Wardens, as a bodyguard.  It'd make excellent tactico-strategic sense to bring one along; and he has ample mental controls in place to do so (he had Luccio commit murder against a senior council member!), so bringing along a "fine thrall" combat-wizard looks like a very good tactical move.

But, of course, that's just a narrative dead end; there's fundamentally no mystery in that, no "payoff" in dropping the hint, little to no interesting "reveal" later as to who it was.

How about it being Cristos, or some other White Council member (maybe one who's also Black Council)?

Great answer. I agree that bringing "muscle" like a warden would make sense, but narratively unsatisfying. I assumed it was either a peer or a subordinate, but I like the idea of a superior better. Someone who is there to keep an eye on the whole situation, but also Peabody and use him as the fall guy if necessary. Cristos definitely fits that bill. We know who was on the island from the senior council. You can count Rasheed out. I like the Langerty being secretly on the Grey Council WAG so that leaves Cristos (technically not on the Senior Council at this time) and Martha Liberty.

[g33k]

... so that leaves Cristos (technically not on the Senior Council at this time) and Martha Liberty.

I think we have a large number of named/identified (but minimally-seen) characters who potentially might be that "unindicted co-conspirator" on the WC... Klaus the Toymaker, the whole list (Montjoy, Lucciozi, Gomez, etc) recited before Ebenezer got named to the Senior Council, and maybe some others I'm not recalling.

Offhand, I don't see any good reason to suppose it's any one of them over another.

Cristos -- specifically -- strikes me as particularly narratively-useful in his very vagueness:  "is he evil... or just stupid?" but also that just-trying-to-get-by everyman.  Despite being a skillful wizard, he's busy with politicking and reputational advancement, trying to "business-as-usual" the problems away.

[Mira]

  At this point it could be any number of wizards on the Council or even someone as shocking as Carlos.  My point it isn't about ignorance or evil, everyone who had dealings with Peabody, and that's just about everyone, had contact with his ink.

[Talby16]

  At this point it could be any number of wizards on the Council or even someone as shocking as Carlos.  My point it isn't about ignorance or evil, everyone who had dealings with Peabody, and that's just about everyone, had contact with his ink.

It comes back to why were there two (presumably wizards) people present? If it is just added muscle than it could be someone Peabody controlled with his ink. For disposable muscle it would have to be a young wizard. Peabody couldn't bring someone like Cristos there against his will. If the second person is on the Executive Council then they would have to be there of their own free will and thus on the Black Council and either a superior to Peabody or a peer to Peabody.

I think we have a large number of named/identified (but minimally-seen) characters who potentially might be that "unindicted co-conspirator" on the WC... Klaus the Toymaker, the whole list (Montjoy, Lucciozi, Gomez, etc) recited before Ebenezer got named to the Senior Council, and maybe some others I'm not recalling.

Offhand, I don't see any good reason to suppose it's any one of them over another.

My only issue that I have with Klaus or any of the other names you have mentioned is that they are at this point just names. It wouldn't be narratively satisfying to have a name mentioned once in the whole series be involved with big events against Harry. Any of those names could be fillers on the Black Council. However, to have someone be filling a role, like Peabody, actively working against the White Council, they should have more screen time.  Cristos has been dangled in the books as a possible Black Council member, and it would make sense with some of his actions, but what if he is just stupid or ignorant and all of his actions are just to benefit himself and the whole time its Martha Liberty. Now we have to go back and look at every interaction Harry has with her in the series to see examine her motives and dialogue for clues. We don't get that same effect with a one off name like Klaus. There is still time for another wizard to have more development in the upcoming books, but we are going to be extra suspicious of any new introduced wizards or dramatically increased book time for anyone.

[Mira]

It comes back to why were there two (presumably wizards) people present? If it is just added muscle than it could be someone Peabody controlled with his ink. For disposable muscle it would have to be a young wizard. Peabody couldn't bring someone like Cristos there against his will. If the second person is on the Executive Council then they would have to be there of their own free will and thus on the Black Council and either a superior to Peabody or a peer to Peabody.

Luccio was the captain of the Wardens at that time.  Granted the body switch screwed her up somewhat, hormones were firing her sex drive because she was in a younger body, and she no longer could make the special Warden swords, but basically to be captain of the Wardens of the White Council her wizard mojo is pretty strong.. It appeared to remain strong, otherwise it would have been noticed, yet Peabody and his ink managed to screw her up controlling her to the point of committing murder.  Or did Peabody screw everyone else up so badly with his ink that they just didn't notice that their Warden captain wasn't quite right anymore? What I am trying to say is apparently they didn't notice, so it isn't inconceivable that Peabody could in fact, manipulate someone like Christos with his ink.. Not against Christos's will,  because he had no clue he was being manipulated by the ink, nobody did.  Remember  when Rashid visited Harry in the infirmary afterwards?  Rashid looked down at his own hands wondering how much he had been influenced by Peabody's ink.  Eb's reaction as well,  said the same thing.. Now, we can agree that Peabody wasn't the brains behind the plot, he was a mere cat's paw.  Somewhere along the line he was corrupted and as an insider to the White Council did a huge amount of damage that would have gone on a lot longer if Harry had attended more Council meetings and signed paperwork.  So who was behind it?  Nemesis?  And why would the second person or creature on the island with Peabody have to be from the White Council?  Peabody used a Way to get to the island, a pretty nasty one at that.  We know that Cat Sith got infested with Nemesis, we also know that Lea and Maeve got infested by Nemesis, so not impossible that maybe it was someone else infested from one of the Courts that was with Peabody on the island.  Oh and I can think of another who we know from White Night can go in and out from the Nevernever, Cowl...  We still don't know his agenda, and yeah he'd be strong enough to manipulate Peabody.

[Talby16]

Luccio was the captain of the Wardens at that time.  Granted the body switch screwed her up somewhat, hormones were firing her sex drive because she was in a younger body, and she no longer could make the special Warden swords, but basically to be captain of the Wardens of the White Council her wizard mojo is pretty strong.. It appeared to remain strong, otherwise it would have been noticed, yet Peabody and his ink managed to screw her up controlling her to the point of committing murder.  Or did Peabody screw everyone else up so badly with his ink that they just didn't notice that their Warden captain wasn't quite right anymore? What I am trying to say is apparently they didn't notice, so it isn't inconceivable that Peabody could in fact, manipulate someone like Christos with his ink.. Not against Christos's will,  because he had no clue he was being manipulated by the ink, nobody did.  Remember  when Rashid visited Harry in the infirmary afterwards?  Rashid looked down at his own hands wondering how much he had been influenced by Peabody's ink.  Eb's reaction as well,  said the same thing.. Now, we can agree that Peabody wasn't the brains behind the plot, he was a mere cat's paw.  Somewhere along the line he was corrupted and as an insider to the White Council did a huge amount of damage that would have gone on a lot longer if Harry had attended more Council meetings and signed paperwork.  So who was behind it?  Nemesis?  And why would the second person or creature on the island with Peabody have to be from the White Council?  Peabody used a Way to get to the island, a pretty nasty one at that.  We know that Cat Sith got infested with Nemesis, we also know that Lea and Maeve got infested by Nemesis, so not impossible that maybe it was someone else infested from one of the Courts that was with Peabody on the island.  Oh and I can think of another who we know from White Night can go in and out from the Nevernever, Cowl...  We still don't know his agenda, and yeah he'd be strong enough to manipulate Peabody.

Peabody and his ink only managed to screw up Luccio because of the body switch. In Turncoat it states that every wizard under the age of 50 was more susceptible to Peabody's manipulation and had the sleep command programmed in. Several of the younger wardens also had the lone gunman reprogramming as well. He was only able to impact the Senior Council in subtle ways. Ebenezer said that the ink only let Peabody nudge them, but that they were too "crusty" to bend. Yes, Peabody could manipulate the older wizards with his ink, but the only people he could have forced to the island was a younger wizard. Otherwise, it would have had to have been a co-conspirator.

You make a valid point about it not having to be a wizard though. There are plenty of other characters we've been introduced to that could have joined Peabody on the island. I wonder if Harry might visit the island in the time travel book to see who it was.

[Mira]

Peabody and his ink only managed to screw up Luccio because of the body switch.

Not because of the body switch, but because of the ink.

Peabody and his ink only managed to screw up Luccio because of the body switch. In Turncoat it states that every wizard under the age of 50 was more susceptible to Peabody's manipulation and had the sleep command programmed in. Several of the younger wardens also had the lone gunman reprogramming as well. He was only able to impact the Senior Council in subtle ways. Ebenezer said that the ink only let Peabody nudge them, but that they were too "crusty" to bend. Yes, Peabody could manipulate the older wizards with his ink, but the only people he could have forced to the island was a younger wizard. Otherwise, it would have had to have been a co-conspirator.

We don't know that, nor if a Senior Member was on the island with Peabody influenced by the ink could you really call him or her a co-conspirator.. The key word here is, under the influence, not fully responsible..  Maybe not zombie or robotic mind control, but enough influence to severely affect judgement.. Also like all of us, wizards, even senior wizards have different levels of tolerance to chemical influences.   

Official testimony from Eb at the trial, page 386  bolding and italics mine...

"Working on the evidence Dresden found." Ebenezar said, "Warden Ramiez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago.  A test of inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects.  It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."

Listens-to-Wind's mouth opened in sudden surprise and understanding.  He looked at his ink-stained fingertips, and then up at Peabody.

Now in the end the Senior Council may not admit to the extent that they were compromised, but from Listens-to-Wind's honest reaction, the effect on the Senior Council was potentially quite serious.. Remember he would know as both a medical doctor and a scientist the  effect of those drugs on the mind, even the minds of Senior Council members.

No, the whole White Council, if they came in contact with the ink, was affected to some degree. ages 397- 398 Turn Coat,  what Harry thinks the effects on the whole, of Peabody's ink, from Lara's independent investigations;

He might have wound up with his brains spattered all over a desolate little hell hole in the Nevernever, but Peabody had influenced one hell of a lot of damage before he was through. A new age of White Council paranoia had begun.

It was all tougher for the members of the Senior Council, in my opinion, all of whom had almost certainly been influenced in subtle ways. They had to go back over their decisions for the past several years, and wonder if they had been pushed into making a choice, if it had been their own action, or if the ambiguity of any given decision had been natural to the environment.  The touch had been so light that it hadn't left any lasting tracks.  For anyone with half a conscience, it would be a living nightmare, especially given the fact that they had been leading the Council in time of war.

I tried to imagine second-guessing myself on everything I'd done for the past eight years.  I wouldn't be one of those guys for all the world.

[Talby16]

Not because of the body switch, but because of the ink.

The body switch made Luccio more susceptible to the ink than a wizard of her age should be. A few quotes from the book (all are from the paperback version and all italics are my emohasis). From pages 128 to 129:

"Someone could have gotten into his head," I said.
"At his age?" Ebenezar said, "Ain't likely."
I frowned. "What do you mean?"
"As a mind grows older, it gets established," he said, "more set in its ways. Like a willow tree. Supple when it's young, but gets more brittle as it ages. Once you've been around a century or so, it generally ain't possible to bend a mind without breaking it."
"Generally?"
"You can't push it that far," Ebeneezer said. "Push a loyal man into betraying everything he believes in? You'd drive him insane before you forced him into that."

From that same section you quoted from pages 518 to 519 of Turn Coat:

It was tougher for the members of the Senior Council, in my opinion, all of whom had almost certainly been influenced in subtle ways. They had to go back over their decisions for the past several years, and wonder if they had been pushed into making a choice, if it had been their own action, or if the ambiguity of any given decision had been natural to the environment. The touch had been so light that it hadn't left any lasting tracks.

Another quote from pages 526 to 527:

"Or maybe Peabody go to him (The Merlin) harder than we all think," I said.
"Improbable," Ebenezar said, "The drugs he slipped the Senior Council let him nudge them...us. But we're all too crusty to bend more than that."

The older the subject the less that Peabody could do. Older wizards become more set mentally and are harder to influence. Luccio is older than Morgan and Eb said in the first quote that Morgan could not have been forced to kill against his will. Luccio was more susceptible because of the body switch and the resulting younger mind. Peabody was able to have a greater influence on her with his ink. I doubt that Peabody could force an older wizard, including the Senior Council, to accompany him to the island. That goes far beyond the nudging Eb mentioned. If a Senior Council member was present on the island, I believe they had to be there of there own will as a co-conspirator, not because they were forced to by Peabody. Both Eb and Harry believe that it was Cristos on the island with Peabody, but we know that they could be wrong.

Now in the end the Senior Council may not admit to the extent that they were compromised, but from Listens-to-Wind's honest reaction, the effect on the Senior Council was potentially quite serious.. Remember he would know as both a medical doctor and a scientist the  effect of those drugs on the mind, even the minds of Senior Council members.

When Listens-to Winds had that reaction, he had just found out during the trial that Peabody had been influencing the wizards through his ink. That was an honest reaction of shock at the news. No investigation had been made into what exactly the ink was and what it could do yet. At that point, his medical and scientific knowledge was useless because he just found out about it and had not examined the ink for himself. It wasn't until after Peabody had been killed, the mistfiend contained, and the injured treated that the Merlin and Injun Joe examined the ink and the influenced wizards fully to see what the effect was. Harry detailed this on page 518 while he was in the infirmary recovering before he talked to the Gatekeeper (the paragraph preceding the second book quote above). For all Listens to Winds knew at the time of the reveal, the effect on the Senior Council could have been quite serious. However, it was after his and Merlin's investigation that Harry made the influence in subtle ways reference to the Senior Council and Eb shared the third quote about the Senior Council only being nudged not bent.

No, the whole White Council, if they came in contact with the ink, was affected to some degree.

I agree, if they came into contact with the ink they were impacted to some degree. That degree depends on how much contact they had with the ink (ie how often they were at headquarters and signing paper work) and how susceptible they were to the inks influence (age and mental defenses).

[Mira]

I agree, if they came into contact with the ink they were impacted to some degree. That degree depends on how much contact they had with the ink (ie how often they were at headquarters and signing paper work) and how susceptible they were to the inks influence (age and mental defenses).

Senior Council, they are intimately involved with governing the White Council, so yeah, lots of contact with Peabody's ink.. And don't discount nudges, especially when the person who is being affected has no clue that he or she is being nudged in one direction or another... Timing in attacks during wartime is one example, a couple of hours one way or the other could be the difference between success and disaster...  Or kind of like driving a car after drinking, you don't have to be drunk to a danger on the road. You are not drunk, not even remotely, but your reaction time is slowed, normally wouldn't affect your driving, but if something happens and you are even a split second too slow to react... 

When Listens-to Winds had that reaction, he had just found out during the trial that Peabody had been influencing the wizards through his ink. That was an honest reaction of shock at the news. No investigation had been made into what exactly the ink was and what it could do yet. At that point, his medical and scientific knowledge was useless because he just found out about it and had not examined the ink for himself. It wasn't until after Peabody had been killed, the mistfiend contained, and the injured treated that the Merlin and Injun Joe examined the ink and the influenced wizards fully to see what the effect was. Harry detailed this on page 518 while he was in the infirmary recovering before he talked to the Gatekeeper (the paragraph preceding the second book quote above). For all Listens to Winds knew at the time of the reveal, the effect on the Senior Council could have been quite serious. However, it was after his and Merlin's investigation that Harry made the influence in subtle ways reference to the Senior Council and Eb shared the third quote about the Senior Council only being nudged not bent.

or... 

Official testimony from Eb at the trial, page 386  bolding and italics mine...
Quote

    "Working on the evidence Dresden found." Ebenezar said, "Warden Ramiez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago.  A test of inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects.  It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."

    Listens-to-Wind's mouth opened in sudden surprise and understanding.  He looked at his ink-stained fingertips, and then up at Peabody.

Was it useless?  He had just listened to Eb's testimony as to what was in the ink.. Listen's-to-Wind  has enough knowledge of chemistry to understand perfectly well what Eb was saying they found.. He didn't need to do his own analysis.

Yes, while the body change made Luccio more susceptible, it still was the ink, wasn't it?  That's my point. 

Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "

What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.

[Talby16]

Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "

What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.

This alone almost outstrips anything Peabody was actually able to accomplish with the ink. The younger wardens could be healed. The older wizards would question/second guess themselves, but the damage to their minds was not extensive. The paranoia caused by an infiltrator in the council won't go away anytime soon. The White Council is jumping at shadows afraid someone else is working against them. IT would be easy to whip that paranoia up and point it at some one specific. As you said, we definitely see the continuation of that with what happens to Harry after Chicago.

[Tinfoil hat]

Senior Council, they are intimately involved with governing the White Council, so yeah, lots of contact with Peabody's ink.. And don't discount nudges, especially when the person who is being affected has no clue that he or she is being nudged in one direction or another... Timing in attacks during wartime is one example, a couple of hours one way or the other could be the difference between success and disaster...  Or kind of like driving a car after drinking, you don't have to be drunk to a danger on the road. You are not drunk, not even remotely, but your reaction time is slowed, normally wouldn't affect your driving, but if something happens and you are even a split second too slow to react... 
or... 
Was it useless?  He had just listened to Eb's testimony as to what was in the ink.. Listen's-to-Wind  has enough knowledge of chemistry to understand perfectly well what Eb was saying they found.. He didn't need to do his own analysis.

Yes, while the body change made Luccio more susceptible, it still was the ink, wasn't it?  That's my point. 

Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "

What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.

Peabody couldn't make a SC member do what he wants only nudge them in a certain way. And his effects on the SC members is mych worse than the total mind control on the younger members in my view.
Imagine for a minute that you are a hot head member of the SC (Eb) for eg. You make a decision to support a strike in your anger and afterwards you find out that you could have been nudged into making that decision and ppl died as a result. You feel like that was something you would have supported its not out of character but you cant be sure. Or you are cautious ( the Merlin ) you delay a strike and the results are that many people die. Was it your natural cautiousness or Peabody ? you will never know. How will cause correct?
The young wizards were mind controlled fullstop. With counseling they may recover. They know it was not them it was someone else violating them. But the SC has a whole will always wonder if this or that decision was their own

[Mira]

Peabody couldn't make a SC member do what he wants only nudge them in a certain way. And his effects on the SC members is mych worse than the total mind control on the younger members in my view.
Imagine for a minute that you are a hot head member of the SC (Eb) for eg. You make a decision to support a strike in your anger and afterwards you find out that you could have been nudged into making that decision and ppl died as a result. You feel like that was something you would have supported its not out of character but you cant be sure. Or you are cautious ( the Merlin ) you delay a strike and the results are that many people die. Was it your natural cautiousness or Peabody ? you will never know. How will cause correct?
The young wizards were mind controlled fullstop. With counseling they may recover. They know it was not them it was someone else violating them. But the SC has a whole will always wonder if this or that decision was their own

That's the point, Peabody didn't have to do mind control over the senior members, simply nudging a Senior Council member can have grave consequences, especially in time of war as Harry pointed out.  A leader second guessing him or herself becomes a less effective leader.  Others second guessing their leader because decisions seem a bit off becomes a less effective team, vulnerable to infiltration or attack.