Turncoat

[LordDresden2]

Luccio was the captain of the Wardens at that time.  Granted the body switch screwed her up somewhat, hormones were firing her sex drive because she was in a younger body, and she no longer could make the special Warden swords, but basically to be captain of the Wardens of the White Council her wizard mojo is pretty strong.. It appeared to remain strong, otherwise it would have been noticed, yet Peabody and his ink managed to screw her up controlling her to the point of committing murder.  Or did Peabody screw everyone else up so badly with his ink that they just didn't notice that their Warden captain wasn't quite right anymore? What I am trying to say is apparently they didn't notice,

You know, that's an aspect of that whole affair that I had never really considered before.  I agree that Peabody probably couldn't produce major changes in older Wizards' behavior, but Staci's affair with Harry does present odd questions.

Staci herself commented afterward that as commander of the Wardens, it was not really wise for her to be carrying on an affair with a subordinate, surging hormones or not.  Did they keep the whole thing secret?  I never saw much sign of that.

Yet did nobody observe that this might be a questionable breach of discipline?  Granted the Council might not have any formal, official rules about such things, but it's hard not to see somebody thinking this was at least unwise or was a bad optic.  Esp. with Harry's tendency to make up his own rules.  I could easily see some other Warden muttering that "Dresden gets away with it because he's ****ing the Captain."  Bad for overall morale, even if the suspicion is false.

Flipside, those of the high echelons who distrust Harry would likely be freaked out by his being the Captain's bedmate, too.  "Has Dresden suborned the commander of our police force?!"

Mira's right about this aspect of things, that whole situation looks funny.

[Tinfoil hat]

You know, that's an aspect of that whole affair that I had never really considered before.  I agree that Peabody probably couldn't produce major changes in older Wizards' behavior, but Staci's affair with Harry does present odd questions.

Staci herself commented afterward that as commander of the Wardens, it was not really wise for her to be carrying on an affair with a subordinate, surging hormones or not.  Did they keep the whole thing secret?  I never saw much sign of that.

Yet did nobody observe that this might be a questionable breach of discipline?  Granted the Council might not have any formal, official rules about such things, but it's hard not to see somebody thinking this was at least unwise or was a bad optic.  Esp. with Harry's tendency to make up his own rules.  I could easily see some other Warden muttering that "Dresden gets away with it because he's ****ing the Captain."  Bad for overall morale, even if the suspicion is false.

Flipside, those of the high echelons who distrust Harry would likely be freaked out by his being the Captain's bedmate, too.  "Has Dresden suborned the commander of our police force?!"

Mira's right about this aspect of things, that whole situation looks funny.

Its actually pointed out that Staci was happy, sure its weird but she's happy. The older members were probably thought its weird but she was happy. Your grumpy friend is finally happy sure their drinking a little bit more but its fine, right.



The WC is old fashioned they don't object to master student relationships what makes you thing they would object to a relationship between two consenting adults. Im not sure if there is any formal code for relationships between members, Wardens and SC. And given their lifespans and small numbers trying to enforce a no relationship clause is asking for a headache


Those anti Dresden members obviously complained about Dresden manipulating poor Staci to get more power but did they say it out loud.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Just a thought.  There is a general assumption being made that if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council with him to Demonreach, that person was just muscle; and more important, someone Peabody mind raped into being his thrall.

What if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council, but not a thrall?  Someone who made a conscious choice to join The Black Council; or whatever they call their alliance, because they had their own grievance against the White Council?  You don't have to be old and disillusioned to betray your principles and the people who trust you.  There is also the possibility this person was a plant from the beginning.  Like the Matt Damon character in the Scorcese movie, The Departed. 

We don't know the backstory of any of the younger Wardens Harry befriended.  Of course, only two of them are still alive.  (I'm assuming Chandler is still alive, somewhere.)

It's just something to consider and keep in mind.

[Mira]

[quoteThose anti Dresden members obviously complained about Dresden manipulating poor Staci to get more power but did they say it out loud.
][/quote]

  I would think that they would, there is that faction of the Senior Council that would like nothing more than to see Harry, minus his head..

The WC is old fashioned they don't object to master student relationships what makes you thing they would object to a relationship between two consenting adults. Im not sure if there is any formal code for relationships between members, Wardens and SC. And given their lifespans and small numbers trying to enforce a no relationship clause is asking for a headache

Yeah.....But this is a bit different, this is the police captain banging one of her academy cadets..  A cadet with a questionable past in the middle of a murder investigation, that should pop up a few red flags here and there.. Which actually gets to the heart of what I am talking about, the effect of the Peabody's ink's nudges on the senior members of the Council.  Did those nudges blind them to those red flags?  Which actually fits nicely with why Peabody had no problem pushing Luccio towards Harry, which normally the Senior Council would notice and object to, this time was passed off under the influence as, as you say an affair between to consenting adults, makes the Captain happy so who cares?

Just a thought.  There is a general assumption being made that if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council with him to Demonreach, that person was just muscle; and more important, someone Peabody mind raped into being his thrall.

What if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council, but not a thrall?  Someone who made a conscious choice to join The Black Council; or whatever they call their alliance, because they had their own grievance against the White Council?  You don't have to be old and disillusioned to betray your principles and the people who trust you.  There is also the possibility this person was a plant from the beginning.  Like the Matt Damon character in the Scorcese movie, The Departed.

We don't know the backstory of any of the younger Wardens Harry befriended.  Of course, only two of them are still alive.  (I'm assuming Chandler is still alive, somewhere.)

It's just something to consider and keep in mind.

And a good idea, and very possible.. However perhaps too simplistic on the face, but on the other hand the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.  Or if you buy that Peabody was merely someone else's cat's paw, that person or creature was on the island with him.

[Tinfoil hat]

Yeah.....But this is a bit different, this is the police captain banging one of her academy cadets..  A cadet with a questionable past in the middle of a murder investigation, that should pop up a few red flags here and there.. Which actually gets to the heart of what I am talking about, the effect of the Peabody's ink's nudges on the senior members of the Council.  Did those nudges blind them to those red flags?  Which actually fits nicely with why Peabody had no problem pushing Luccio towards Harry, which normally the Senior Council would notice and object to, this time was passed off under the influence as, as you say an affair between to consenting adults, makes the Captain happy so who cares?

And a good idea, and very possible.. However perhaps too simplistic on the face, but on the other hand the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.  Or if you buy that Peabody was merely someone else's cat's paw, that person or creature was on the island with him.

During turncoat Harry was not a cadet more a lieutenant banging the police captain. He had a whole region and Wardens who report to him. Its the loose cannon on the force banging the chief, the very strict chief . Its Riggs banging the Captain in lethal weapon,
Imagine mike lawrey from bad boys banging his captain.

[Mira]

During turncoat Harry was not a cadet more a lieutenant banging the police captain. He had a whole region and Wardens who report to him. Its the loose cannon on the force banging the chief, the very strict chief . Its Riggs banging the Captain in lethal weapon,
Imagine mike lawrey from bad boys banging his captain.

Yes, he is a cadet in as much has he had none of the training that the other wardens go through.  You will remember he was drafted in Dead Beat and automatically made Regional Commander for North America.  And again, I agree the Regional Commander banging the Captain of the whole force smells bad, because Harry is seen as loose cannon, and he was banging his commander.  So why wasn't that picked up by anyone?  Could it be subtle manipulation, i.e. nudge, nudge, by Peabody ink so that those on the Senior Council, fellow commanders like Carlos, were aware of it, but because of the nudge, nudge of the Peabody ink chose to look the other way? Something they would not have done if they weren't under the influence.  It's like drinking and driving, maybe not legally drunk by any breath test, i.e. the older wizards, but reflexes slowed just enough to where if something popped up they might not be able to react swift enough, so wreck!  As in what Harry said about some of the decisions that were made during the war with the Red Court.

[Talby16]

Just a thought.  There is a general assumption being made that if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council with him to Demonreach, that person was just muscle; and more important, someone Peabody mind raped into being his thrall.

What if Peabody brought a younger member of the Council, but not a thrall?  Someone who made a conscious choice to join The Black Council; or whatever they call their alliance, because they had their own grievance against the White Council?  You don't have to be old and disillusioned to betray your principles and the people who trust you.  There is also the possibility this person was a plant from the beginning.  Like the Matt Damon character in the Scorcese movie, The Departed. 

We don't know the backstory of any of the younger Wardens Harry befriended.  Of course, only two of them are still alive.  (I'm assuming Chandler is still alive, somewhere.)

It's just something to consider and keep in mind.

Excellent point. I admit that I was thinking younger wizard as thrall not younger wizard as ally at the island. This wrinkle opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Does anyone know where Carlos is during this fight on the island?

[Mira]

Excellent point. I admit that I was thinking younger wizard as thrall not younger wizard as ally at the island. This wrinkle opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Does anyone know where Carlos is during this fight on the island?

Is he even mentioned?  A couple of points, Carlos is a team player for the most part unlike Harry, in other words he'd spend more time at headquarters, signing orders and exposed to Peabody ink. Carlos in spite of his position is one of the younger wizards, more vulnerable to it's effects.  Did anyone bother to see if Carlos was affected by the ink?  If not rehabbed is the effect of the ink long lasting, and his ill fated sexual encounter with Molly just cemented his paranoia and feelings against Harry.

[Tinfoil hat]

Is he even mentioned?  A couple of points, Carlos is a team player for the most part unlike Harry, in other words he'd spend more time at headquarters, signing orders and exposed to Peabody ink. Carlos in spite of his position is one of the younger wizards, more vulnerable to it's effects.  Did anyone bother to see if Carlos was affected by the ink?  If not rehabbed is the effect of the ink long lasting, and his ill fated sexual encounter with Molly just cemented his paranoia and feelings against Harry.

Every young wizard was affected Carlos included. The WC instituted some changes to its mental defense training but it wasn't as robust as Harry would have liked hence him and Molly training on their own. He was rehabed but trauma so close to other trauma will reopen old wounds

[Mira]

Every young wizard was affected Carlos included. The WC instituted some changes to its mental defense training but it wasn't as robust as Harry would have liked hence him and Molly training on their own. He was rehabed but trauma so close to other trauma will reopen old wounds

 
The ink was a different thing from defense against mental attack, which is mind to mind.  That isn't the case with the Peabody ink, that was the effect of the ink's contact with the skin, then getting into the bloodstream and that way to the brain.  The only reason Harry wasn't affected along with everyone else is avoided headquarters and signing anything from Peabody.  Remember when he first arrived to investigate the murder Peabody was eager to have Harry sign some papers that he had.  Harry didn't because he was too busy with his investigation so it was mere luck that he wasn't  also affected.

[Talby16]

Every young wizard was affected Carlos included. The WC instituted some changes to its mental defense training but it wasn't as robust as Harry would have liked hence him and Molly training on their own. He was rehabed but trauma so close to other trauma will reopen old wounds

I agree that Carlos had to be impacted to some degree. He was a warden before Harry, a regional commander, and most likely present in headquarters more often than Harry (pretty easy since Harry has gone to headquarters almost never).  The odds of him signing something are pretty high.

AS much as it pains me to say, Carlos is a good candidate for a traitor. We know that he is distrustful of the council. We know that he has been frustrated by corruption. It would be an easy jump from him to go from there to the council needs to be replaced by something better. Forgive my cross-reference, but in Star Wars there was plenty of people who liked/preferred the Empire because of its emphasis on law and order and structure despite the atrocities it committed. Package the Black Council ideas up in the right way and combine that with a dose of ink and Carlos might be susceptible. He would be an attractive target as a way to keep tabs on Harry or maybe even recruit him in the future.

[Mira]

He would be an attractive target as a way to keep tabs on Harry or maybe even recruit him in the future.

Carlos did keep secret tabs on Harry.  Remember the tracker dot he secretly put on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks?  No, Carlos was willing to screw over his friend long before that final scene between them at the end of Battle Ground. 

[LordDresden2]

Carlos did keep secret tabs on Harry.  Remember the tracker dot he secretly put on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks?  No, Carlos was willing to screw over his friend long before that final scene between them at the end of Battle Ground.

But that's not out of character.  Harry, as Carlos pointed out, hasn't been acting like a friend, for a long time.  From a Council POV, Harry looks suspect, and he seems uninterested in alleviating the suspicions.  I'm not sure Carlos still believed Harry was his friend, whether or not Carlos thought of himself as Harry's.

[Mira]

But that's not out of character.  Harry, as Carlos pointed out, hasn't been acting like a friend, for a long time.  From a Council POV, Harry looks suspect, and he seems uninterested in alleviating the suspicions.  I'm not sure Carlos still believed Harry was his friend, whether or not Carlos thought of himself as Harry's.

Was it Harry or Carlos not acting as a friend?  I don't think it is at all clear as to what Harry did that made Carlos go along with putting that tracking tab on him at the beginning of Peace Talks.  I still think that the disastrous sex encounter with Molly is what really is at the bottom of all of this.  And you know what?  I think Mab could have set all of it up to isolate her Knight and Lady from the White Council.  1] Mab may or may not have known that Carlos and Molly had a thing for one another, or at least were attracted  to one another.  In any case, one very important bit of information she kept from Molly when she was instructing her was NO SEX with mortals, or at least mortal wizards.. Carlos not without reason, might think that this is something Molly should have been aware of and wondering why she tried to kill him during their love making... 2] Carlos may also think, and not without reason that as the Winter Knight, Harry should also have known about this danger and warned him as a friend.. "Don't bang Lady Molly, it could be hazardous to your health!"  Harry didn't know, had no reason to know, after all he did bang Mab to become Knight without any ill effects physically.  If Harry and Molly ever try to pin her down on the subject of why she didn't divulge this important bit of information.. Mab would reply, "you didn't ask.."  However neither did Mab volunteer, which is all part of her deep three dimensional chess game.. To great success, it is possible that she was only using Molly, since her head has always been in danger of being severed from her shoulders so not a lot of ties to sever.. However Harry was both a member of the White Council and a Warden, Mab doesn't want duel loyalties from her Knight, she rather he didn't follow rules like the Laws of Magic..

[Talby16]

Carlos did keep secret tabs on Harry.  Remember the tracker dot he secretly put on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks?  No, Carlos was willing to screw over his friend long before that final scene between them at the end of Battle Ground.

Forgot about this. Carlos has shown that he will put other things above his friendship with Harry.

But that's not out of character.  Harry, as Carlos pointed out, hasn't been acting like a friend, for a long time.  From a Council POV, Harry looks suspect, and he seems uninterested in alleviating the suspicions.  I'm not sure Carlos still believed Harry was his friend, whether or not Carlos thought of himself as Harry's.

It is and it isn't out of character. The last we saw of Carlos before PT/BG was a brief scene in Changes where Carlos chases Harry down after he confronts the Duchess in front of the council. At that point Harry and Carlos were still presumably on good terms if not outright friends. It was a little jarring to go from that perspective with Carlos to PT where there is simmering distrust/hostility and BG where there is a definite break. That being said, since we saw Carlos, Harry (in the council's view) singlehandedly wiped out the Red Court, seemingly died, came back to like, is in service to Mab as the winter knight, helped the Denarians break into Marcone/Hades vault. In addition, he has not been fulfilling his role as a warden and regional commander and as far as we know has not talked to the council once since Changes. It is easy to see why the distrust of Harry has grown and how Carlos, in addition to having that distrust/paranoia bleed over onto him, might also be feeling slighted because Harry has not reached out to him at all during these major life events.