Turncoat

[Mira]

It is and it isn't out of character. The last we saw of Carlos before PT/BG was a brief scene in Changes where Carlos chases Harry down after he confronts the Duchess in front of the council. At that point Harry and Carlos were still presumably on good terms if not outright friends. It was a little jarring to go from that perspective with Carlos to PT where there is simmering distrust/hostility and BG where there is a definite break. That being said, since we saw Carlos, Harry (in the council's view) singlehandedly wiped out the Red Court, seemingly died, came back to like, is in service to Mab as the winter knight, helped the Denarians break into Marcone/Hades vault. In addition, he has not been fulfilling his role as a warden and regional commander and as far as we know has not talked to the council once since Changes. It is easy to see why the distrust of Harry has grown and how Carlos, in addition to having that distrust/paranoia bleed over onto him, might also be feeling slighted because Harry has not reached out to him at all during these major life events.

This may be all true, but has Carlos reached out to Harry?  Like who is the one person who might know what's up with Molly and Winter Ladies and sex and not judge Carlos or Molly for trying?  Has Carlos even tried to talk to Harry about what happened to him?Any information on Winter Ladies at all?  It may have saved him his macho dignity..  Or do we have any scenes at all after Cold Days where Carlos asks Harry what happened?  Is he okay?  Come to think of it, I don't remember Harry going to Carlos in Changes when he was so desperate for help to save little Maggie?  Well not just her but Eb and himself as well.. Maybe he did, it's been a while since I read the book.. But Harry was a friend in need, if he did ask, why didn't Carlos help? 

Or the truth of the matter is, they were working colleagues and casual friends, no more, no less... So when the rumors started to hit the fan and his enemies on the Council had the knives out for Harry...  Carlos turned into a professional hardass taking the side of those with the knives and stabbing Harry in the back while keeping himself clean.

[dillic1]

I've always thought it could be the gatekeeper. As far as I understand, Harry becomes able to recognize people on the island when he sees them stand on it (and then can keep track of them). Rashid intentionally doesn't touch the island. Harry lacks the ability to recognize him, so when he shows back up with Peabody, he's effectively incognito. Also explains how quickly the messengers get to LTW for the trees. Rashid playing both sides to prepare Harry.

[Mira]

I've always thought it could be the gatekeeper. As far as I understand, Harry becomes able to recognize people on the island when he sees them stand on it (and then can keep track of them). Rashid intentionally doesn't touch the island. Harry lacks the ability to recognize him, so when he shows back up with Peabody, he's effectively incognito. Also explains how quickly the messengers get to LTW for the trees. Rashid playing both sides to prepare Harry.

I don't think so, oh I agree that Rashid is helping Harry, but I don't think he is the one playing back up to Peabody or both sides.  I reread the passage where Rashid is on the dock and confronts Harry before he knows that Harry has claimed the island as a sanctum. Rashid didn't know and told Harry using his "Eye" that his chances of succeeding were nil.  Then Harry jumps onto the island and Rashid scans again and is shocked and surprised to learn that Harry has made the island a sanctum. Yes, Rashid was standing of the very tip of the dock, but not because he feared that Harry would sense from the island that he was helping Peabody in the future.  Yes, Rashid apparently also knows an unsavory "Way" to the island, but that doesn't mean he was with Peabody.  Rashid admits he knows a Way.. Also Harry openly asks Rashid to help him, Rashid confesses that he cannot step foot on the island.. "Because this place carries a grudge," he said.  Somehow I don't think Rashid was lying about that.  Also what would be the point of him trying to talk Harry out of the confrontation?  For that matter why leave at all?  He wouldn't have to be incognito to be playing both sides.. No, whoever it was with Peabody, for my money it wasn't Rashid.

[Talby16]

This may be all true, but has Carlos reached out to Harry?  Like who is the one person who might know what's up with Molly and Winter Ladies and sex and not judge Carlos or Molly for trying?  Has Carlos even tried to talk to Harry about what happened to him?Any information on Winter Ladies at all?  It may have saved him his macho dignity..  Or do we have any scenes at all after Cold Days where Carlos asks Harry what happened?  Is he okay?  Come to think of it, I don't remember Harry going to Carlos in Changes when he was so desperate for help to save little Maggie?  Well not just her but Eb and himself as well.. Maybe he did, it's been a while since I read the book.. But Harry was a friend in need, if he did ask, why didn't Carlos help? 

Or the truth of the matter is, they were working colleagues and casual friends, no more, no less... So when the rumors started to hit the fan and his enemies on the Council had the knives out for Harry...  Carlos turned into a professional hardass taking the side of those with the knives and stabbing Harry in the back while keeping himself clean.

In Changes, Carlos tried to ask Harry what was going on when he left the confrontation with the Duchess, but Harry was in no shape to respond and Molly told Carlos that they would be in touch. Luccio told Harry that she would be the eyes and ears in headquarters and by implication organizing help there. However, before any the plan was formulated Carlos and several other wardens (except Chandler) were arrested and thus unable to help Harry in the final battle.

After Changes, Harry was dead for awhile and then in PT in the Winter Court and thus not able to be contacted. When his PT was done he was thrown right into the events of Cold Days and things moved way to quick for any type of contact to exist between them. After Cold Days, Harry had to stay on the island due to the parasite. He stayed there until the events of Skin Game started. Mab tells Harry that she specifically prevented contact between Harry and his friends and altered his messages going out in order to pressure him into backing her play in Skin Game. Once Harry got off the island, he could have taken the time to reach out to Carlos, but once again he is in the thick of Big Bad Events and rekindling communication was low on the priority list. After Skin Game is really the first time that Carlos and Harry have a chance to reconnect. Molly and Carlos' interaction takes place sometime between Cold Days and Skin Game and the end result is Carlos severely injured and most likely out of commission for a good long while since In Peace Talks he is still showing some of the effects from his injury from Molly. Recuperating in the hospital would make reaching out to Harry hard especially given that it was Harry's apprentice who did the injuring. It was the Winter Lady who injured Carlos, do you think he is going to reach out to the Winter Knight when he is still suffering from those injuries or is he going to wait until he can face Harry on his own two feet again?

To summarize, based on my understanding of the timeline, I don't think it would have been easy for Harry and Carlos to reconnect after their last meeting in Changes. Once again, from Carlos' point of view, Harry was at the least a colleague if not some degree of friend. Harry killed the Red Court, died, went to work for Mab, and did two major events all without talking to the council or touching base with the wizards who were his colleagues. I can see how Carlos might think that Harry has gone over to the dark side or at least is no longer on the good side.

[Mira]

To summarize, based on my understanding of the timeline, I don't think it would have been easy for Harry and Carlos to reconnect after their last meeting in Changes. Once again, from Carlos' point of view, Harry was at the least a colleague if not some degree of friend. Harry killed the Red Court, died, went to work for Mab, and did two major events all without talking to the council or touching base with the wizards who were his colleagues. I can see how Carlos might think that Harry has gone over to the dark side or at least is no longer on the good side.

Or was manipulated by someone, possibly even Luccio if she was under the influence of the Peabody ink to be further prejudiced against Harry. 

[Tinfoil hat]

In Changes, Carlos tried to ask Harry what was going on when he left the confrontation with the Duchess, but Harry was in no shape to respond and Molly told Carlos that they would be in touch. Luccio told Harry that she would be the eyes and ears in headquarters and by implication organizing help there. However, before any the plan was formulated Carlos and several other wardens (except Chandler) were arrested and thus unable to help Harry in the final battle.

After Changes, Harry was dead for awhile and then in PT in the Winter Court and thus not able to be contacted. When his PT was done he was thrown right into the events of Cold Days and things moved way to quick for any type of contact to exist between them. After Cold Days, Harry had to stay on the island due to the parasite. He stayed there until the events of Skin Game started. Mab tells Harry that she specifically prevented contact between Harry and his friends and altered his messages going out in order to pressure him into backing her play in Skin Game. Once Harry got off the island, he could have taken the time to reach out to Carlos, but once again he is in the thick of Big Bad Events and rekindling communication was low on the priority list. After Skin Game is really the first time that Carlos and Harry have a chance to reconnect. Molly and Carlos' interaction takes place sometime between Cold Days and Skin Game and the end result is Carlos severely injured and most likely out of commission for a good long while since In Peace Talks he is still showing some of the effects from his injury from Molly. Recuperating in the hospital would make reaching out to Harry hard especially given that it was Harry's apprentice who did the injuring. It was the Winter Lady who injured Carlos, do you think he is going to reach out to the Winter Knight when he is still suffering from those injuries or is he going to wait until he can face Harry on his own two feet again?

To summarize, based on my understanding of the timeline, I don't think it would have been easy for Harry and Carlos to reconnect after their last meeting in Changes. Once again, from Carlos' point of view, Harry was at the least a colleague if not some degree of friend. Harry killed the Red Court, died, went to work for Mab, and did two major events all without talking to the council or touching base with the wizards who were his colleagues. I can see how Carlos might think that Harry has gone over to the dark side or at least is no longer on the good side.

Does Carlos even know why Molly attacked him. Its possible that the only explanation he was given is that Winter are masochist and its how they get off. Carlos has no idea why Molly attacked him, for all he knows Harry and Molly are gone only  things that look like them and sound like them remain.
Ps for all the Carlos hate ,Harry is also to blame.
Think about it.
Harry killed the entire Red court alone. Does the Council's general population know what happened. Im sure the senior members know he had help, but what about the  wardens including Carlos , the average WC member Joe and Jane  Everywizard. For all they know Harry made some dark deal to kill them all. What price or deal did he make to be able to do that?
Afterwards he died as in ded. At least as far as they know.
Harry died and came back. Who was the last wizard to do that.
Wait hes back and he just killed the Winter lady and is the new winter knight. His apprentice is the new winter lady. Hold on the summer lady is also died and we have a new summer lady. Dresden was also involved.
Ps someone just robbed hell ( hades i know), and Nicodemus is now on the run, Dresden was involved. He was part of Nic's crew but he suffered no consequences. Probably framed Nic and got away with it.

Im saying Harry looks shady as hell. Did Harry even try to touch base with his allies. To tell them his back and ok. No .

[Talby16]

Does Carlos even know why Molly attacked him. Its possible that the only explanation he was given is that Winter are masochist and its how they get off. Carlos has no idea why Molly attacked him, for all he knows Harry and Molly are gone only  things that look like them and sound like them remain.
Ps for all the Carlos hate ,Harry is also to blame.
Think about it.
Harry killed the entire Red court alone. Does the Council's general population know what happened. Im sure the senior members know he had help, but what about the  wardens including Carlos , the average WC member Joe and Jane  Everywizard. For all they know Harry made some dark deal to kill them all. What price or deal did he make to be able to do that?
Afterwards he died as in ded. At least as far as they know.
Harry died and came back. Who was the last wizard to do that.
Wait hes back and he just killed the Winter lady and is the new winter knight. His apprentice is the new winter lady. Hold on the summer lady is also died and we have a new summer lady. Dresden was also involved.
Ps someone just robbed hell ( hades i know), and Nicodemus is now on the run, Dresden was involved. He was part of Nic's crew but he suffered no consequences. Probably framed Nic and got away with it.

Im saying Harry looks shady as hell. Did Harry even try to touch base with his allies. To tell them his back and ok. No .

Exactly. We know Harry motives because we are in his head. However, from the outside, most of his actions since Changes can be painted in a very negative light with very little effort. Natural paranoia would make you think that Harry has made some dark deals and is going down a slippery slope. Harry has done nothing to try and change that perspective (granted you can make the argument that he has not had time/opportunity since Changes). Carlos' attitude during Peace Talks makes more sense when looking at the whole picture. He tried to reach out to Harry, put him on the security team, and bring him back into the White Council fold. He might have been trying to help Harry. What did Harry do? He kept secrets, attacked the Fae violinist in a way that even briefly shocked Molly, seemed to "associate" too closely with the White Court, and pulled a trick on Carlos. Its easy to see how Carlos is upset at the end of Battle Ground.

[Mira]

Exactly. We know Harry motives because we are in his head. However, from the outside, most of his actions since Changes can be painted in a very negative light with very little effort. Natural paranoia would make you think that Harry has made some dark deals and is going down a slippery slope. Harry has done nothing to try and change that perspective (granted you can make the argument that he has not had time/opportunity since Changes). Carlos' attitude during Peace Talks makes more sense when looking at the whole picture. He tried to reach out to Harry, put him on the security team, and bring him back into the White Council fold. He might have been trying to help Harry. What did Harry do? He kept secrets, attacked the Fae violinist in a way that even briefly shocked Molly, seemed to "associate" too closely with the White Court, and pulled a trick on Carlos. Its easy to see how Carlos is upset at the end of Battle Ground.

At the end though, doesn't explain him putting that tracking device on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks.  That motivated Harry who felt betrayed to pull the trick on Carlos.  We also do not really know what happened between them between Changes and Peace Talks.  We know what happened to Carlos with Molly, apparently Harry knew Carlos had gotten injured, but not how it happened, Molly apparently didn't tell him either.  Harry was "dead" for a while during Ghost Story.. Not much action between them in Cold Days, though you'd think Rashid vouching for Harry and doing the paperwork would put him say a lot.  Then Harry was confined to the island for a year before Skin Game..   The White Court isn't exactly the enemy either, Lara did her bit in the battle to save Chicago.

[Talby16]

At the end though, doesn't explain him putting that tracking device on Harry at the beginning of Peace Talks.  That motivated Harry who felt betrayed to pull the trick on Carlos.

I would contend it does explain it. In short, Carlos and his team are not sure where Harry's loyalty lies. They are not sure if they can trust him. They look at everything that happened from Changes onwards and listen to the Council distortion of Harry's actions and wonder if Harry is still Harry. They tracked him to see what he was doing and who he was associating with. In addition, Carlos is the head of the security team for the peace talks. It is his job to look for threats to the wizard delegation and the talks as a whole. You could argue he was doing his job checking into Harry.

That being said, Harry has a right to feel upset about their actions. The tracking was borderline shady and the spell to see if Harry had sex was borderline unethical. They could have just asked him, but could they have trusted his answer? Harry also could have cleared everything up by explaining that he was with his girlfriend, but he was too hurt and angry to cooperate.

The White Court isn't exactly the enemy either, Lara did her bit in the battle to save Chicago.

The White Court is a fellow signatory under the accords. Lara did her part as she was required to as a member of the accords. That doesn't mean she is nice or good. You can be a fellow signatory and still be an enemy. All the accords are is an agreement of a pattern of conduct and a governance of how the signatories relate to each other. Both the Red Court and Ghouls are signatories and yet have both been enemies of the White Council. Most wizards are very leery of vampires because of their ability to enthrall. An enthralled wizard could have horrible outcomes. That is partly why Carlos and company investigate Harry, to see if Lara had her psychic hooks in him.

[Mira]

I would contend it does explain it. In short, Carlos and his team are not sure where Harry's loyalty lies. They are not sure if they can trust him. They look at everything that happened from Changes onwards and listen to the Council distortion of Harry's actions and wonder if Harry is still Harry. They tracked him to see what he was doing and who he was associating with. In addition, Carlos is the head of the security team for the peace talks. It is his job to look for threats to the wizard delegation and the talks as a whole. You could argue he was doing his job checking into Harry.

Yet in Turn Coat, who was it that Harry stood up for?  A Warden.  We know that Luccio was in extensive rehab because of the Peabody ink.  Were the younger Wardens as well?  Was Carlos?  Yet Carlos made Harry part of the security team.. In addition secretly putting that tracking device on him, setting him up..  If Carlos really suspected Harry he did a piss poor job of protecting the participants in it didn't he?  I mean Harry was able to spring Thomas, and made Carlos look like a fool at the conference before all hell broke loose.  No, something else is going on here, it wasn't until the last minute that Harry realized that Justine wasn't what she appeared to be..  The Council vote again reeks of set up, along with trumped up charges yet here is Carlos playing the hard assed cop all of a sudden? 

The White Court is a fellow signatory under the accords. Lara did her part as she was required to as a member of the accords. That doesn't mean she is nice or good. You can be a fellow signatory and still be an enemy. All the accords are is an agreement of a pattern of conduct and a governance of how the signatories relate to each other. Both the Red Court and Ghouls are signatories and yet have both been enemies of the White Council. Most wizards are very leery of vampires because of their ability to enthrall. An enthralled wizard could have horrible outcomes. That is partly why Carlos and company investigate Harry, to see if Lara had her psychic hooks in him.

There are still rules that those who sign the treaty must abide by, the White Court has done that.. No, Carlos jumped to conclusions on the road back from the visit from the Raith estate... Again set up, Chandler knew it and that was the look he gave Harry... Now, either Chandler will turn out to be the actual plant here influencing Harry to get his back up, or there is corruption and he was trying to warn Harry.. Based on the BS charges at the end of Battle Ground, Chandler was right.

[g33k]

Thank you for all the quotes you provided here!

The body switch made Luccio more susceptible to the ink than a wizard of her age should be.
 A few quotes from the book (all are from the paperback version and all italics are my emohasis)...
 From pages 128 to 129:
from pages 518 to 519
from pages 526 to 527
 Luccio is older than Morgan and Eb said in the first quote that Morgan could not have been forced to kill against his will. Luccio was more susceptible because of the body switch and the resulting younger mind. Peabody was able to have a greater influence on her with his ink...

And yet, none of those quotes (nor anything else I recall Ebenezer ever addressing directly) actually states that the bodyswap made Luccio more susceptible to the influence of the inks, and to Peabody's magic.

We infer it, from the 1-2-punch of Morgan telling us of Luccio's guilt and from Ebenezer says.

... I doubt that Peabody could force an older wizard, including the Senior Council, to accompany him to the island. That goes far beyond the nudging Eb mentioned. If a Senior Council member was present on the island, I believe they had to be there of there own will as a co-conspirator, not because they were forced to by Peabody. Both Eb and Harry believe that it was Cristos on the island with Peabody, but we know that they could be wrong.

So, here's some other thoughts; alternative hypotheses.

#1 - Ebenezer is just wrong.  We know that the Council has largely forbidden the exploration of mind-magic, but Peabody & his ilk clearly have not.  Corpsetaker had remarked on how out-of-date Harry's training was, and I think we should take it for granted that Eb gave the best mental-defense training that he could, to his grandson.  But what if Black Council researchers had found ways to bend even Senior-Council level minds, without breaking them?

#2 - Luccio is Black Council.  This is a dark theory, but -- what if Luccio killed LaFortier not because of Peabody's mind-control, but because she's a full-on BC agent?  What if "Peabody made me do it" is just her cover-story?  Consider this:  of all the people in Edinburgh who could have discovered her... who's the one person who would cover for her, take the fall, but also have the skills & power to escape the WC, and the initiative to loop-in Dresden?  How "convenient" for her, that that one person was the one who found her there with the bloody dagger.

#3 - An overt, brutal, full-control takeover may not be possible, or may be prohibitive.  But repeated nudges, year after year?  That exactly what sets habits and patterns in place, which can become self-sustaining:  "You are what you do."  Small incremental changes, that are let to sit and "naturalize" in place... which in turn can form a new baseline, from which you make further incremental changes, set new habits and patterns.

And it's not like the Council was a bastion of loving-kindness, trust, and openness; there were innumerable doubts and grudges and suspicions to exploit, bad inclinations that pre-existed, that didn't so much need a "nudge" to be go badly, as just gently suppressing the inhibitions that might have stopped that bad decision.

How many years was Peabody inking the Council?

[Tinfoil hat]

Thank you for all the quotes you provided here!And yet, none of those quotes (nor anything else I recall Ebenezer ever addressing directly) actually states that the bodyswap made Luccio more susceptible to the influence of the inks, and to Peabody's magic.

We infer it, from the 1-2-punch of Morgan telling us of Luccio's guilt and from Ebenezer says.

So, here's some other thoughts; alternative hypotheses.

#1 - Ebenezer is just wrong.  We know that the Council has largely forbidden the exploration of mind-magic, but Peabody & his ilk clearly have not.  Corpsetaker had remarked on how out-of-date Harry's training was, and I think we should take it for granted that Eb gave the best mental-defense training that he could, to his grandson.  But what if Black Council researchers had found ways to bend even Senior-Council level minds, without breaking them?

#2 - Luccio is Black Council.  This is a dark theory, but -- what if Luccio killed LaFortier not because of Peabody's mind-control, but because she's a full-on BC agent?  What if "Peabody made me do it" is just her cover-story?  Consider this:  of all the people in Edinburgh who could have discovered her... who's the one person who would cover for her, take the fall, but also have the skills & power to escape the WC, and the initiative to loop-in Dresden?  How "convenient" for her, that that one person was the one who found her there with the bloody dagger.

#3 - An overt, brutal, full-control takeover may not be possible, or may be prohibitive.  But repeated nudges, year after year?  That exactly what sets habits and patterns in place, which can become self-sustaining:  "You are what you do."  Small incremental changes, that are let to sit and "naturalize" in place... which in turn can form a new baseline, from which you make further incremental changes, set new habits and patterns.

And it's not like the Council was a bastion of loving-kindness, trust, and openness; there were innumerable doubts and grudges and suspicions to exploit, bad inclinations that pre-existed, that didn't so much need a "nudge" to be go badly, as just gently suppressing the inhibitions that might have stopped that bad decision.

How many years was Peabody inking the Council?

1. Eb was right
So far all indication are that Eb was right. Look at the kid Molly bent to help him stop doing drugs. The kid was was torn apart. He fought against the programming. The girl was ok because she had agreed to the changes her programming gave her. According to the rules of the verse you cant force someone to do something they don't want to do no matter how harmless it seems without  that harming them.
This even accounts for free will. Which is important in this verse.
2. Luccio being BC would be a twist but would it be a good one?  im not sure. Cause everything we know seems to eliminate her as a suspect. Cowl is BC why did she try to stop him.
3. Is possible cause a nudge is not out right mind control. For eg
I go out thinking with friends and knowing i have a low tolerance and friends encourage me to drink one more . Its the same as the nudge not outright mindcontrol

[Mira]

1. Eb was right
So far all indication are that Eb was right. Look at the kid Molly bent to help him stop doing drugs. The kid was was torn apart. He fought against the programming. The girl was ok because she had agreed to the changes her programming gave her. According to the rules of the verse you cant force someone to do something they don't want to do no matter how harmless it seems without  that harming them.

Actually I think you are comparing apples to oranges here, while yes, both are fruit because the involve mind manipulation, they are very different.  In the case of Molly messing with the minds of her friends to get them off of drugs, she had neither experience or proper instruction she plowed into their minds because with her talent, because she could.  I understand that her goal was noble but essentially she did great damage because she didn't know what the hell she was doing.  It would be like I know you need an operation to remove your appendix and because I own a scalpel, I try to do it myself.  Most likely because of the images Molly wanted to try and get them off of the drugs she cause them to go insane.. In the case of Peabody's ink, he never went into their minds, Luccio and others came in contact with the ink and it clouded their judgement, made them vulnerable to suggestion.. Like taking too much alcohol, only worse.

[g33k]

1. Eb was right
So far all indication are that Eb was right. Look at the kid Molly bent to help him stop doing drugs. The kid was was torn apart. He fought against the programming. The girl was ok because she had agreed to the changes her programming gave her. According to the rules of the verse you cant force someone to do something they don't want to do no matter how harmless it seems without  that harming them.
This even accounts for free will. Which is important in this verse.  ...

No, "all the indications" are that many branches of black magic -- and in particular, mind-control magic -- are less-developed among theWCouncil wizards than they are among the BCouncil wizards.

I'm suggesting that Eb -- like all the other WC folks who haven't been exploring that branch of magic -- are simply behind that particular magictech curve.  Like... the top speed for a car in 1925 is dramatically lower than  the top speed for a car in 2025.

Peabody (and other BC wizards) might very-well know formulations that exceed what Eb (and other WC wizards) believe to be possible when it comes to mind-control magic.  How far it's possible to bend somebody, etc.

Also remember the BC may be bringing Outsider magic to bear; it has subtlety to sometimes exceed even the Gatekeeper, and power to overwhelm even battle-champion Ebenezer.