Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[Telynn]

Maybe Justine was infected at that point, and therefore not in love, so didn't have the protection.  But bringing in the other person was her cover to Thomas.  See? You can touch me because I brought this other person in to have sex with us!  No other way to get pregnant unless Thomas was convinced that was the other person causing him to be able to touch Justine, instead of possessed Justine didn't love Thomas.

[Mira]

Maybe Justine was infected at that point, and therefore not in love, so didn't have the protection.  But bringing in the other person was her cover to Thomas.  See? You can touch me because I brought this other person in to have sex with us!  No other way to get pregnant unless Thomas was convinced that was the other person causing him to be able to touch Justine, instead of possessed Justine didn't love Thomas.

Yup, that is what I am trying to say.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Yeah, I've always had trouble with it as well.  It never was clear and it has been debated a bunch over the years.  What constitutes true love?  Supposedly just touching a wedding ring of a someone who has true love protection can burn, or a flower touched and given in true love.  Yet getting raped can destroy the protection? Yes, we've gone around and around on that one.  It makes no sense.  Does it come down to being unfaithful?  You can get drunk and have a one night stand, still truly love someone else, but your protection is gone.   Did Justine have sex with the woman she brought home because she loved her?  Or so the protection would be erased and she an Thomas could have sex?  Or more to the point, was she motivated by her true love for Thomas to do it so they could consummate their relationship, which you'd think would seal not destroy the whole protection thing. Or was Justine infested with Nemesis as of Ghost Story and wanted to destroy her protection so she could eventually get pregnant to set up other events?

I mean even if Justine's having sex with this lass would destroy protection, shouldn't it return like in 5 minutes after she moved to Thomas, assuming they were still in True Love. Now this conundrum thankfully was sort of explained as Nemesis trick, which makes it more digestible for me.
Because really as only scene with Thomas in "Ghost Story" it was lame.

[Mira]

I mean even if Justine's having sex with this lass would destroy protection, shouldn't it return like in 5 minutes after she moved to Thomas, assuming they were still in True Love. Now this conundrum thankfully was sort of explained as Nemesis trick, which makes it more digestible for me.
Because really as only scene with Thomas in "Ghost Story" it was lame.

No, that has been one of the biggest mysteries about the whole true love protection gig.  It makes no sense and we've gone down that rabbit hole for some time now.  True love is an emotion, a powerful emotion that one feels for another, supposedly true love is a ghost pepper to the mouth of the Hunger Demon.  Yet, one misstep of unfaithfulness, or even rape can wipe it out.. True love just isn't ended that easily, yet in the Dresdenworld it is.

[vincentric]

It makes perfect sense to me.

True love is the magical mechanism that establishes the protection, just like casting a ward. And like a ward it remains until broken or taken down.

Sex, voluntary or involuntary, with someone other than your True Love breaks the ward. Voluntary is you taking it down, involuntary is an attack that breaches it.

Having sex with your True Love at a later time rebuilds the ward. I imagine Thomas and Justine had to refrain from body contact very shorty after completing the act as the ward came back up.

[Dina]

That is how I understand it too.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

True love is the magical mechanism that establishes the protection, just like casting a ward. And like a ward it remains until broken or taken down.

But then why it's enough to be really brave to burn Malvora out

Having sex with your True Love at a later time rebuilds the ward. I imagine Thomas and Justine had to refrain from body contact very shorty after completing the act as the ward came back up.

Problem with this is - WOJ states sex is not necessary to estabilish ward.

[Dina]

Until I see it on the books, I won't believe it.

[Mira]

Having sex with your True Love at a later time rebuilds the ward. I imagine Thomas and Justine had to refrain from body contact very shorty after completing the act as the ward came back up.

One huge problem with that theory, Justine got pregnant at some point just before Peace talks.  Which implies no true love protection because they continued to have sex.  Or possible Justine continued her bisexual relationship so there was no true love protection build up, she and Thomas could continue to have sex ending in pregnancy which was the goal of Nemesis. Also possible, Thomas isn't even the father, he did say that vampires of the White Court are all but sterile, plus they used birth control.  So poor Thomas was simply duped all the way around because I doubt he'd believe that anyone else could be the child's father but himself.   

[Arjan]

One huge problem with that theory, Justine got pregnant at some point just before Peace talks.  Which implies no true love protection because they continued to have sex.  Or possible Justine continued her bisexual relationship so there was no true love protection build up, she and Thomas could continue to have sex ending in pregnancy which was the goal of Nemesis. Also possible, Thomas isn't even the father, he did say that vampires of the White Court are all but sterile, plus they used birth control.  So poor Thomas was simply duped all the way around because I doubt he'd believe that anyone else could be the child's father but himself.

If she was the one doing the birth control then it was easily sabotaged. The all but sterile must be magical in origin and has something to do with the demon and might not even be a factor if the demon thinks Justine is the right mother.

[vincentric]

One huge problem with that theory, Justine got pregnant at some point just before Peace talks.  Which implies no true love protection because they continued to have sex.  Or possible Justine continued her bisexual relationship so there was no true love protection build up, she and Thomas could continue to have sex ending in pregnancy which was the goal of Nemesis. Also possible, Thomas isn't even the father, he did say that vampires of the White Court are all but sterile, plus they used birth control.  So poor Thomas was simply duped all the way around because I doubt he'd believe that anyone else could be the child's father but himself.

The True Love protection is mechanical and they were gaming the system.

They do their threesome thing, presumably with both having sex with the flavor of the week first, and that knocks the protection down. Then she and Thomas can have "safe" sex which will rebuild the True Love ward as a result.

It's a very gamer exploit of the system.

[morriswalters]

It's a pretty convenient ward, if a ward it is.  Thomas banged his way through Dead Beat. That should have killed it. Yet by White Knight despite the fact that Thomas has been doing every "she" he comes in contact with, it means not one wit. 

[Mira]

It's a pretty convenient ward, if a ward it is.  Thomas banged his way through Dead Beat. That should have killed it. Yet by White Knight despite the fact that Thomas has been doing every "she" he comes in contact with, it means not one wit.

Yup, and still banging away as of Peace Talks with Evanna.  Justine was protected, but not Thomas, he is the vamp feeding, not her.  True love protected her from him..  When she had sex with someone else, she lost the protection.  If it had built up again, then he would have been burned any time he touched Justine. 

[morriswalters]

I believe you are right in terms of how Jim has structured it, but having been married for 40 plus years I can reliably state that sex has very little to do with true love.

[Arjan]

I believe you are right in terms of how Jim has structured it, but having been married for 40 plus years I can reliably state that sex has very little to do with true love.

Jim Butler was only 33 when Blood Rites came out.