Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]

[Dina]

lvl 8 Barbarian? 

[Arjan]

lvl 8 Barbarian? 

Came with the winter mantle I suppose.

[TrueMonk]

I think Barbarian would be the best way to represent it without doing something super fancy. His rage is just more or less without a time limit. But if it is stopped by e.g. Iron when he is in the negatives he passed out-ish. He is quite a bit higher level barbarian than Butters is Paladin because Harry can beat him without the wizard stuff and without going into full rage

[morriswalters]

Come on, Butters can't threaten Harry with physical violence without his kotc status to back it up. Anything that Butters ever asks Harry to do Harry only does because he agrees or because he respects Butters wishes. The level 3 paladin/lvl 5 expert does not threaten the level 12 wizard/lvl 8 Barbarian.

Explain the reason for this text to me.

The little guy took a deep breath. Then he said, in a calm and sincere tone, “Harry, tease me about this or screw it up for me and I’ll knock your teeth out.” And he said it right. I mean, there’s a way to convey your sincere willingness to commit violence. Most people seem to think it involves a lot of screaming and waving your arms. It doesn’t. Really dangerous people don’t feel a need to shout about it. Delivering that kind of warning, sincerely, takes mostly the sort of confidence that only comes from experience. Butters had only had the Sword since the end of winter. He’d only been doing full-speed Knight work for about a month. But I’d seen him square off against maybe the scariest and most dangerous bad guy I personally knew—and Butters won. And here he was, facing off with me like a grouchy badger. He told me to back off and made me want to do it. Damn. Little guy had gotten all grown up on me.

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (pp. 120-121). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

[Dina]

I think Barbarian would be the best way to represent it without doing something super fancy. His rage is just more or less without a time limit. But if it is stopped by e.g. Iron when he is in the negatives he passed out-ish. He is quite a bit higher level barbarian than Butters is Paladin because Harry can beat him without the wizard stuff and without going into full rage

I had not thought that but you are right. It is a berserker thing.

Morris, I think Harry was thinking in Butters mind and courage, not in their specific skills and gadgets.

[TrueMonk]

Harry is allmost incapable of backing off because someone dangereous tells him to do so and threatens with physical violence. Who has done something along those lines? Ferrovax at Biancas party sort of did it, but he was not really standing between Harry and anything Harry wanted, except maybe Harry's wish to make fun of others (as I remember it). Odin did something a bit like it when Harry wanted him to stay and he did not have time. Maybe the most apt comparison is when Harry starts badmouthing Hades family and Hades tells him to stop. As I remember the scene Harry stops because he recognises it is impolite, but also because he recognises that Hades is a really dangerous god. These are the sort of really dangerous "people" Harry respects/fears enough to not make fun of. But if Harry thought the right thing to do would be to stop what "they had going on" I think he would try. Some of the very dangerous "people" he does not stop making fun off includes Hugin and Mugin. Someone he does not shy away from screwing things up for when he thinks it is the right thing to do is the Blackstaff. Just to pick two examples from BG.

So to me, it is clear that Harry does not refrain from making a joke or from stopping what Butters has going on because of Butters "sincere willingness to commit violence" and ability to do that, because that would make Harry think Butters is more dangerous than pretty much every villain in the series untill now which would be ridiculous.

As a result I read it as Harry is impressed that Butters can make that sort of statement in that way and happy that his friend has grown. He respects him as a person and thinks they are all mature people who seems to have found some love, boink and let boink as he puts it in the park with Titania, so he has no reason for screw it up for him.

So of course Butters can sincerely threaten Harry with physical violence, it is just that it does not have any effect on what Harry does after that other than it has conveyed a sincere wish from a friend to not do something.

[Dina]

I agree about all what you said, but morris was asking about the specific comment of Butters as a very dangerous people. I think Harry was surprised to realize Butters is actually dangerous. But he stopped teasing not because he was afraid, but because he respects and loves Butters. Sincerely, Harry had no reason to be afraid. Butters can be a good physical fighter but Harry even without the power of the mantle is a dangerous wizard. And Butters cannot use the sword against him for a joke or two.

[morriswalters]

Everything that Jim writes serves a purpose in the story.  What do the two women and Butter's threat do?

It isn't about sex, other than to pull out a stereotype that Jim wants to use.  The stereotype is that manliness is directed related to how many women you have. And the point of the threat isn't to whip Harry in a fight.  It's meant to show that if push comes to shove Butters will fight even if he can't win.  It's what Harry does when he stands up to something bigger than him and mouths off. The idea of the whole passage is to increase Butters machismo.  To sell Butters as a Knight the reader has to see him as somebody who is  dangerous and capable of violence.  Later he will establish why the sword can be wielded by Butters. At least for me, Jim didn't make that sale.

[StrayDog]

Butters and the two Alphas
Everyone brings their own life experiences to the table when they discuss this particular part of the books. It's interesting to see the different takes on what JB is attempting to portray. These type of relationships aren't knew in the DF series so why do people feel so strongly about Butters specifically?

[Arjan]

Butters and the two Alphas
Everyone brings their own life experiences to the table when they discuss this particular part of the books. It's interesting to see the different takes on what JB is attempting to portray. These type of relationships aren't knew in the DF series so why do people feel so strongly about Butters specifically?

Because he is a knight of the cross? Jim is trying to break the knights free from roman catholicism here.

[TrueMonk]

Because he is a knight of the cross? Jim is trying to break the knights free from roman catholicism here.

That was also how I read it.

But so we have two clearly different ways to read it;

-to break the knights free from roman catholicism in yet another way
-to show Butters is macho / nerd fantasy fulfillment fan service

Any others?

[StrayDog]

Because he is a knight of the cross? Jim is trying to break the knights free from roman catholicism here.

Isn't Sanya an Athiest? Seemed to me that Shiro was more Taoist. Only Michael was catholic.

[Dina]

As I said, I was expecting it would pay later, with Butters protecting Andi and Marci in the Fight or something, so I was disappointed when it did not happen. Alternatively, I was relieved when they survived because a) I like all the Alphas, I still regret Kirby death b) I did not want to see a sad crying Butters c) I did not want it to look like Jim was punishing Butters or the concept of threesomes.

[StrayDog]

As I said, I was expecting it would pay later, with Butters protecting Andi and Marci in the Fight or something, so I was disappointed when it did not happen. Alternatively, I was relieved when they survived because a) I like all the Alphas, I still regret Kirby death b) I did not want to see a sad crying Butters c) I did not want it to look like Jim was punishing Butters or the concept of threesomes.

I agree that JB seems to have a reason for this and it would be quite a foolish thing to do just to comment on threesomes. Most people feel that JB is providing a geek fantasy but there again, quite a foolish thing to do.

[morriswalters]

When has Jim ever paid more than lip service to Catholicism?  Did I miss something?

Butters and the two Alphas
Everyone brings their own life experiences to the table when they discuss this particular part of the books. It's interesting to see the different takes on what JB is attempting to portray. These type of relationships aren't knew in the DF series so why do people feel so strongly about Butters specifically?

So I take it that you think this is about sex?

@Dina
Andi and Marci have been fighting longer  then Butters. They first took the field in Fool Moon.  They've seen  friends killed and injured.  Why would they need Butters to rescue them? Andi tried to eat Harry and damn near shot his head off.