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Messages - the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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DF Spoilers / Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« on: December 16, 2017, 05:40:42 PM »
That seems quite clear and Vadderung should know.

Yeah, putting two statements next to each other and leaving the listener to assume a possibly misleading degree of connection is not a confirmation.

DF Spoilers / Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« on: December 16, 2017, 05:38:56 PM »
Outsiders that we're having trouble with are by and large the spirits of Gods(which might be oxymoronic, as Gods seem to be spiritual first anyway) who died but who don't want to go away. The ones who are part of reality, as the seasons or remember by human history seem to be more inside than out. But there are those killed intentionally whose masks and power were fed into the stone table that have not faded because they are not forgotten by humanity, but who have only a consciousness, no power of their own, and the memetics of them are tied up into the courts as well. The Walkers and Nemesis are on this tier of outsider.

That take on them is definitely qualitatively different; I am not immediately finding it appealing because it binds them more to mortal reality than feels right to me, but this needs further thought.

Satan I think did this, and the current outsiders have outsider via lovecraftian appearance because that's the current belief for 'outside' in the human mind. Previously Hell was outside reality, and certainly Jotunheim was considered beyond the realms in Nordic myth.

Same reaction applies here.  I think Outsiders are fundamentally more alien than that, and thinking of such anthropocentric concepts as fear or despair as defining their purpose and nature rather than merely being tools they use feels wrong; mind you, I am still less than entirely happy with how emotionally human Jim has had Faerie turn out to be, it feels both jarring with earlier books and to lessen their impact, to me. The DV is more impressive if it is bigger and more complex than anything human nature can be the measure of.

Specifically we have a woj the Eldest(including Lea) are actually a parts of the human psyche.

I would love to be pointed at that.

Me too lol. If we have the same data, will we come to the same conclusions lol?

Some day Jim will set down a final word on the whole setting, and at that point there will be no conclusions left to draw.

Not sure what to say to that, think you have it a bit different than I do here. Jotun are not Fomor, Jotun are what became winter imo.

I do believe Gard mentions at some point that some Jotun have joined the Fomor.

I count Molly to, but that's just me lol. She was Nfected from breaking the laws and the fetch ate the Nfection. Notice after he eats her Scarecrow says he's served the queen of air and darkness since before human history? He is referring to the original. He's fearbringer using the minds eye as the mirror/beacon to find it's way in.

I read him as Outsider-infected and in the process of attacking Mab there, with Molly as an incidental bonus.

That was the goal of the fetches, to fetch and eat her Nfection. which MW I think was allowed to release because... Mab had violated rules containing the Knight whose job killing Nfectee's is.

That makes Winter sound a lot more internally conflicted than I have considered.  I think Mab contains Slade with the intent of putting pressure on Harry to take up the job.

You lost me here.

If Namshiel is working for Mab, it explains why Mab would hide thinking about it from Harry, and it could explain the favour Mab owes Anduriel, which gets called in at the start of SG.

If Namshiel is an enemy, neither of these seem to be the case to me.

Therefore I find the former notion more appealingly Occamian.

I think it's going to be a clue for PT actually, I think Mab is going to close a circle around Chicago for the talks, effectively making it part of the NN and under her power directly.

That would certainly be neat.

Ah, in FM I finger the loups aura for making Harry almost give up on the way out of the Precinct, and the 'old' fireman as uriel providing a balance.

That does not ring true to me because sfaict Uriel only gets to act like that to counter the Fallen.

DF Spoilers / Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« on: December 16, 2017, 05:25:36 PM »
That depends, do you consider Ramps true immortals incapable of farther change or are they still technically 'mortal' to you? Because of they can't change, then a change that goes from lower level to higher looks a lot more suspect

Maybe I am not clear here, then.  I do not think there is a change going from Bianca to Arianna, because I think Arianna has been like that characterwise all along, it's just that Harry does not know anything about her until a few years after Bianca dies.

LMAO dude... think about MM from MM Harry's perspective, yes he is that vindictive!

Nah, our Harry has screwed up quite spectacularly enough not to be an annoyingly too-good example to anyone.

Being that Nemesis specifically made deals with all but Cat Sith,

Remind me where that is stated ?

Morgana Le Fay, the original source in the books of the Atheme and first known Nfection vector, was in lore known as a Sea Sprite.

Which lore are you quoting there? I've seen her done as everything from human to half-devil, and most later stories conflate Morgana with Morgause.

In what i'd consider germaine connections to the mythos as given by Mab to Disney, we have Ursula the sea Hag(sister to Trident or whatever, Poseidon) known for collecting Souls and making bad deals, for having usurped the throne from her brother too.

That feels a bit of a stretch to me.

This of course would start to have to do with the hidden meanings behind the labeling of the court's 6 queens. Those who were directly related to the Norse version of the fates and also being a metaphor for the fact their time has already gone for instance.

Gosh. That's quite a set of notions and I think I need to digest them for a bit before I can say anything meaningful to them.

Those 3 primary powers actually originate In Buddhism and Taoism. Everyone gets that wrong because they know the Christian perspectives better themselves, ergo that's what they see come out.

It would certainly be interesting to see more from those cosmologies on-screen in the DV.

Those Nails are actually preChrist imo. They are the Fateful Nails of Nortia, the Etruscan Name for the Greek Nemesis. They are the weapons of the first 3 horsemen, the last death uses the other three.

Cool.  And that would fit in with my ongoing expectation that the fourth nail of he cross is due to show up eventually.  (Mutter grumble Triclavian Heresy mutter; nobody as Catholic as Michael should be sold on there only being three nails.)

So Christianity is big in it right now for a reason... but it's not as big as you think.(most tend to get insulted when I imply these things that they know as Christian might not be exclusively so in a fictional work)

I am an ex-Catholic agnostic raised in Ireland, so it's pretty much impossible to offend me from that direction.

This is a lot to chew on; thank you.

DF Spoilers / Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« on: December 16, 2017, 05:13:04 PM »
And, the fomor secretly encouraged the RCV downfall.

I think I'd sum up my argument there as, secretly from the Red Court maybe, but secret from the readers not even slightly.

DF Spoilers / Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« on: December 15, 2017, 09:35:08 PM »
The red court as pretenders is Harry's wishfull thinking. Odin was quite clear about it. They used to be gods and were worshiped by a whole nation just like him.

We know from various sources (Harry in PG, the bassanid in "last Call") that the old gods mostly left Earth and the bassanid at least believes TWG had something to do with it.

Nothing prevents the original mayan gods being kicked out whenever that happened (which I think was most likely around the time of Christ, am I remembering the bassanid referring to about two thousand years correctly?) and the Red Court who replaced them having centuries to be worshipped as gods before the various relevant Mesoamerican cultures collapsed.

DF Spoilers / Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« on: December 15, 2017, 09:31:43 PM »
Key point, when they stole the identity they changed the names too.

Remind me what you are referring to here,

I am now trying to remember which theology it is where Lucifer's revolt is prompted by being absolutely horrified that the WG would be so evil as to enable humans to make choices that would deny them Heaven.
Which if you read is precisely my point there man... precisely my point...

Your point was that being in favour of free will may not make TWG a good guy, and being against it may not make Lucifer evil, too ?

Non sequitur? *shrugs* idk see what the line of though is here.

The line of thought is, you drawing a connection from Outsiders to naagloshi to necromancy-powered Black Court vampires seems to me to be lumping three disparate things into one without evidence enough to do so.

DF Spoilers / Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« on: December 15, 2017, 09:28:15 PM »
We know it wasn't OG Merlin because Jim said so.

OK, I'd not seen that one. 

Granted that is a logical leap in reasoning there, but not an unfounded one since we have an Nfected meave seeking to break open the well. It's safe to assume they have allies or otherwise contained individuals in there for those reasons.

Or they just want to release evil stuff to cause chaos and act under cover of that chaos. No formal alliance necessary.

The connection between DR and Outsiders is most outright stated by DR himself, when he names them Old Gods with capitalization in the book(unless i'm wildly misremembering something I thought before when I read it) vs Harry's proclamation in DB of the same manor towards the Outsiders as Old Gods and their servants.

I think you are misremembering here.

IIRC, Old Gods is used in several places to refer to the polytheistic deities who are mostly in the NN and not affecting Earth any more, as by Harry in PG.  The gods of the Outsiders are the Old Ones.

DF Spoilers / Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« on: December 15, 2017, 09:24:02 PM »
This discussion feels like it's reaching an impasse, so I am going to trim bits that feel deadlocked.

Numbers, not strength.

Have you an exact quote to hand?  I am pretty sure she says combat strength.

And what would that have meant in practice? It means the red court can keep demanding things.

No it wouldn't.  They get the peace treaty, status quo re-established, they no longer have the right to demand anything.  Harry parsing this as being about not giving in to bullies is a self-serving rationale for not accepting the political necessity of give and take to maintain peace and save lives.

They would simply add more demands until the council had to refuse.


The Council say "yes, we got your peace offer, we accept the terms." The Reds change the terms. They are now outside the protection of the Accords.  They get exterminated in a few days.

The thing that seems worth keeping front and centre here is that Mab is an entity, from a mythical tradition, where no amount of murder or slaughter can be anywhere near so big a crime as breaking your word.

The red court has allies to and you dismiss them all the time.

Yes I do.  For two reasons.

One, that the Red Court are a martial organisation.  We know they can't summon Outsiders, because only humans can.  We know they are lousy at magic generally, because Arianna, one of their oldest and strongest, is about as capable and flexible in her magical duel as a two-bit hobby sorcerer like Kravos.  Nobody has ever said the Red Court's strength is assessed by their ability to bring in allies.  Eb and WoJ say the White Coucnil's is.  Because, I would say, fighting smart rather than just hard is what makes wizards wizards.

And secondly, because the Red Court's allies do not actually help them.  They set up Bianca, dragging the Reds into a war they cannot win.  They summon Outsiders to supposedly help the Reds fight the White Council at the end of DB (and possibly also lie to them about imminent post-Darkhallow help being on its way) which leads directly to the Red Court getting near-obliterated by Summer in PG.  And when the Reds are on the ropes in Changes, their supposed allies pursue their own interests elsewhere and leave the Red Court to die.

It is about allies you can reliably count on. The Tengu are, Winter is not.

If you are willing to disregard all the evidence I have pointed out as to how Mab is absolutely reliable as an enforcer of the Accords, yes.

The attack was too well coordinated, they did not even wait to see how it would end. That is most likely because the attack was agreed with the red court before. They attacked the white council, the victor of Chichen Itza.

You think everybody who would like to see the White Council taken down has to be a deliberate ally of the Red Court?  That feels to me like imposing a very dubious duality on a complex supernatural setting with multiple power groups each with their own agenda.

If they were just profiting from the chaos they would have acted later both because they wouldn't be that sure about when and who to attack and because it would be safer to attack the loser.

You have some reason for thinking the Fomor have no decent intelligence capacities, here ?

They would be all over latin america to profit from the fall of the red court and not fighting a winner. Unless they of course thought the red court, their allies, had a safe plan for winning the war end they would loose the opportunity to profit from the white councils defeat if they did not join.

So you are disregarding the post-Changes evidence that expanding into the space made by the fall of the Red Court is exactly what the Fomor are doing ?

Besides this is a magical world based on ancient traditions and believes. Some things have to be done a certain way. It is their nature.

If you want to apply that to the Red Court's "sacrifice party" (despite that it is actually about working a major piece of ritual magic to win a war and all the sacrifices we see are to that end) why are you reluctant to apply it to the Accords as we see them enforced?

Probably a slow process but that changes nothing. Expansion in an occupied world is not possible without violence.

You are for some reason discarding the possibility of conversions, here?  Offering people the chance to become a vampire and live forever?  Despite that we are told at the end of Changes that when the Red Court was annihilated, that took out people all through governments and other power structures around their part of the world?

She is not there to protect anyone except reality in general. She protects her accords but see what happened in white night for example. The aggrieved party must take action otherwise there is no case and Mab offers only a framework for resolving conflicts.

They are for protecting signatories.  I don't know why you keep moving away from me making this point.

The Whites hunting the low-power magicians in WN is not an Accords violation, because the low-power magicians are not affiliated with the White Council.  Harry stepping in to protect them is something he does of his own volition, not because the Council ordered him to.

Likewise, Susan or any of the other victims in GP are not Accords violations. Because regular humans are not protected under the Accords.  mab does not have to lift a finger in their defence.

If you kill the whole red court there is no one to take action, that works even if the red court had not broken the accords.

I do not believe this in the slightest.  Exterminate the Reds without cause, and you're as much at fault as Nicodemus is for attacking Ivy without cause.

It is much like Njal's saga. A very informative book about a norse feud in the tenth century.

And faerie are not Norse.  We see the Norse mythos in the DV as a separate thing.  Odin, in his Kringle guise, has to some extent signed up to play by Faerie rules.

Besides the weregeld for simon and his crew would be much higher than that for Bianca.

Bianca is promoted to a Margravine; one step below a Duke, two below the Red King.  Give that the red Court definitely has barons and knights, and that set of titles implies the existence of earls and counts and so on, she is nearer the top than the bottom of their ladder.  The White Council has the Merlin, the Senior Council, and everyone else.  Someone in the middle rank is the appropriate exchange.

Who also knows the red court and their nature better than we do. Actually ask the merlin in Changes, he would have told us the shark's nature would not change.

Yep. The non-suicidal nature which led them to sign the Accords and spent centuries abiding by them and not getting into wars they can't win.  The nature that could have been restored by Harry refusing to be baited into starting a war, reporting to Eb, having Eb draw together the Grey Council and like-minded souls like Luccio earlier, sit down and negotiate with Ortega, and get rid of the Red Court's so-called "allies" in order to restore the status quo that's been shown to work for centuries, and save at least the forty thousand lives the nerve-gas bomb killed in the Congo at the end of DB. (Like preventing 9/11 ten times over.)

DF Spoilers / Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« on: December 15, 2017, 08:50:38 PM »
because after she died someone who's quite similar suddenly becomes the same uppity Red Noble Lady?

Arianna Ortega was around a lot longer than Bianca, she turned her husband back in the conquistador days and he turned Bianca some time later.  I see no reason to think Arianna is suddenly having a change in character to step up to replace Bianca, rather than Harry having got to a point of dealing with someone senior who was like that all along.

(My personal favourite notion for what's up with Bianca is that the Red Court deliberately picked their least stable lower-level type and rushed her promotion, before sending her to Chicago and again once she was there.  In order a) that she will sooner or later get into the fights they want got into with Harry, and b) that the higher a rank she is in, the bigger a bite they can legitimately take out of the Council as wergild when she dies.)

Also because i'm guestimating in MM Susan will instead be that Ramp seeking ascension.

That would be pleasingly nasty, but I am pretty sure JB is not as nasty a person as I am.  If he was, Mirror Mirror would introduce Harry to a version of himself who'd done everything better, made different choices and engaged in different moral growth, saving thousands of lives, and Harry would forever after have to live with the knowledge of what a screw-up he was by comparison.

I quite agree, she's not always the one at play, but she's the one all the strings connect back too. It's her role to break reality just as much as it is Mab's to preserve it, THAT is a balance not found in the two queens imo.

I remain entirely unconvinced Nemesis is a personification with any wants of its own, beyond "corrode Faerie constraints so that the Faerie in question can make choices that suit their own wants but are outside the bounds of their nature". (Maeve being a cruel type wants to get rid of competition, Aurora being an idealist wanting to end the conflict between Summer and Winter forever, Cat Sith being a proud ancient who would like nothing more than to decorate with the innards of the disrespectful wizard.)

Neither want's to end reality, Mab wants it for herself(ergo she stops outsiders) and Titania want's to balance that directly. but neither want it gone(same could unfortunately be said of the Mothers, meaning they don't collect the balance on the next level up.

CD does seem to me to lock down that the Courts are meant to work together towards an overall goal despite the opposition between them along the way, which was pleasing confirmation of what I have been arguing... since DB was when I came on the forums, but I have believed it since reading SK.

Yes... unfortunately I don't have a collective body of work. I'm not the kind of person who could organize that alone.(like Arnold/Terminator, i'm a firm believer there are no 'self made men')

Ah go on, write it up nicely, then we can ask to have it put in the Reference Collection.

Well hot damn, you got a list? Cause it would be damn useful lol.

I've done that a few times, though I fear most of them are long over the event horizon of post deletion (and I do wish I had asked to have my Harry Dresden: the Case Against thread put in the reference collection);  give me a nice long afternoon with nothing else on my plate and I may do it again.

  FM, for instance, was about breaking the curse to free Fearbringer from it's current Host/prison. GP tried to remake a spirit of terror directly in Kravos, ect. ect.

This and what you were saying earlier sounds like your master plan is  taking Faith/Hope/Love and their opposites as defining polarities in the shape of the DV, yes ?

I am inclined against, because that would make Christianity more defining in the DV than I think Jim intends to; the text so far feels like he is making really remarkable efforts to leave it open either way whether the Christian moral perspective and cosmology is more fundamental to the DV than any other (and I can sympathise with that at a meta-level, on not wanting to annoy either Christian or non-Christian readers.)  The Valkyries and the einherjar and the portrayal of Odin are entirely compatible with their cosmology and morality being as fundamental if not more so.

The goal as far as N and the walkers go, is to find purchase inside reality, find identity, so they can then judge and destroy it in so much as their version is are Hell on earth scenario. This isn't the only Outsiders with beef, that's just theirs. On a different but related tier the Lord of Slowest Terror/Hunter of Shadows aka Chronos wants true Oblivion. for everything to return to it's original oneness, to collect all the 'shadows'. Aka those made by those who stand inside the light, insiders defining outsiders through penumbra effect. WE cast the shadows that give the outsiders definition, without us they have none. and that's the Original Darkness's goal, to be one again(see the Chronos similarity in the desire?)

OK, that's an interesting take on it.

I don't find that particularly compelling because we already have other dualities that serve that purpose, though.  Heaven and Hell, for one, Faerie and Fomor for another, Aesir and Jotun, and the existence of the Greek gods implies Titans.

I don't think the Old Ones of the Outsiders are going to turn out to be Titans or Jotun any more than they are Fallen.  Nicodemus and his like putting so much effort into corrupting souls means that at some level they have to see souls as worth obtaining.  Pretty much the only absolutely solid fact we have about the reality outside the Gates is that mordite is (a sort of) regular matter out there, and mordite is equally lethal to ordinary organic life as to soulless evil monsters like the Red Court.

To loop back to the actual thread title for the moment, there are evils that are playing on the other side of the chessboard trying to win things over from good, and there are other perpendicular struggles going on across the same chessboard between different forces, some of which occasionally make alliances with the more good/evil forces.  (Think of a game of Hope Verney four-player chess, or, if you want to move beyond dualities, to Orwell chess.)  And over and beyond that, we have entities that want to burn down the entire chessboard and dance in the ashes.  I don't believe that when Bob in GP refers to the Old Ones being driven beyond the Outer Gates he's referring to some sort of event in the mythical past of humanity, because any large amount of mordite being around on Earth is incompatible with humanity (and we know the DV had an evolutionary-scale history rather than a young-Earth (or young-Yggdrasil) creation because of everyone's favourite tyrannosaurus); I believe he is talking about the Big Bang, and that the Outsiders are not our shadows, but the predecessors of anything resembling rational ordered reality.

But imo a lot of people have missed things already in the books out now.

I'm the last person who needs to be assured of that, sometimes it seems I spend half my posts pointing such things out....

Idk if you remember me as Wizard Nelson

I remember the former, and coolness, I'd not connected the usernames.

or Sibelis, but this is why I always liked you. Upon hearing a new and different theory instead of reflexively saying i'm wrong you ask me if I have sources you don't lol.

Oh, there are loads of things I didn't figure out on my own that seemed obvious once other people pointed them out (like for example the location of the Stone Table in SK and Harry's meeting with Malcolm in DB both echoing Demonreach) so I do try to be open to people figuring out stuff I have missed.

If perchance you'd ever like to talk about my theory, which is grand and unifying as any other I've read here, i'd love for a chance to talk with someone who might actually understand it.

I'd certainly like to; please do start a thread.

When they do they usually have specific purposes in mind behind it, in the DF it's Nemesis. I'd have to track down(or just use that excellent reference section while I can, duh) the precise scenes but everytime Murphy has mentioned it it's been directly related to a 'wonky' book where Nemesis is the likeliest puppeteer.

That seems to me barely one step up from saying that every time anyone claims things are getting bad, it must be Nemesis.  One of the things that was set up about Harry very early on is that he is familiar with genre fantasy and SF, that poem is enough of a go-to quote that I am not at all sold on it correlating with Nemesis.

Course... in some ways i'm applying Nemesis as simply a destabilizing force, or should I say THE destabilizing force.(which the fomor court of water is precisely the Norse end state of the Fire and Ice balance btw, just part of the process of Force Majore Decay)

That's the scale of syncretism I think Jim is largely aiming to avoid, btw; I see nothing to see he'd wish to offend contemporary believers in the Norse deities either.  The Fomor are Celtic and he has put them in opposition to a version of Faerie that are more in a post-Celtic tradition than anything else; DV Odin is quite distinct from Faerie, and I suspect the Jotun to be equally distinct from the Fomor as and when we do see them. (Which isn't to say they might not find goals in common.  Just like Mab and Odin do, or like that centaur in SK, who given the established reality of Classical mythos in the DV, now reads to me as a Classical expatriate living in Summer.)

Yes, but I will now use it as my own evidence lol. Mab has shown the winter court to time and again be interested in Nfected sources.

How many times?  The athame and Maeve, and indeed, given post-CD knowledge that Summer and Winter are working together, Aurora.  And it's not as if she went seeking out the athame.

If she hid the coin's where about's in his mind then she took it is the likelist answer,

I think so too.

giving rise to a very good reasoning behind Namshiel being the culprit or otherwise compromised.

Not giving anything to distinguish that from Namshiel being her agent she wants to protect and conceal, IMO.

I'm not seeing Mab's reasoning for hiding suspicion of Namshiel from Harry if Namshiel is an enemy, considering how much she uses him against her enemies;and if Namshiel is an enemy, that also leaves the favour Mab owes Andruiel in SG as an unexplained loose end.  So without definitive evidence either way, I incline for the explanation that ties up more circumstantial evidence.

Recently(griff iirc) someone had a theory it's because his subconscious took control of his empty hand after the soulfire to secure the coin for Mab. It had a glove always, and was shown moving without his intention to snatch a coin at another point(need to make sur the wasn't HIS coin too, cause that would set a precedent on targeting him spc)

That's kind of neat; I still think that was resurgent Lash, though, and I remain to be convinced Bonnie is not Lash.

I find it likely when she took his Rod she made another deal with his subconscious mind coin, she does so when she attacks him again when he brings it up perhaps..

Works for me.

I have a feeling no matter who said it you'd lawyer up a perspective against their authenticity though lol.

Pfft.  When new text smashes one of my favourite theories to splinters I abandon it without looking back.  (Well, except for still being sad that Morgan and Simon Pietrovich were not a couple.)

Jim's world is steeped in it's mechanics. I try to see them properly, though holes exist where only clue's are given.

Yes, but the thing that is absolutely key to my methodology, that I seem to have the hardest time persuading other people of, is that the holes are as significant as the clues.  The patterns in what people don't say, don't think, don't know, are as important as what they do.

Look at the first two-thirds or so of SK, where Elaine leads Harry around by the nose (until he gets to the Mothers' cabin) in order to get him to steal the Unravelling.  Look at SmF where we can see Harry's mind shying away from thinking about his blasting rod, sometimes accompanied by headaches, in places where he would otherwise think of it, even though he has no idea himself that that is going on.

Ah... not bad, but I think it was mostly to get the 3 eye drug out there to start effecting mortal belief and weaken the veil more. As Storm Front is literally the storm front of events leading up to the storm in Dead Beat. It's reference to the stirring up of the ghosts and dark magic, the beginning of trying to pierce the veil as Mort mentions in both GP and DB iirc.

That could be it, I suppose.  I had not thought of that and I like it.

Tell me, do you reckon the Unseelie Incursion of 1994 when wherever-it-was disappeared for a few hours tied in here?  I suspect that is set-up for all of Chicago falling into the NN during the BAT or the immediate lead-up.

Funny you mention the scene outside of Sells house though, i'm fairly sure that's the first time Nemesis made it's presence known in the books.

It works for me without needing Nemesis at all, because so very many of the influences on Harry's life are trying to encourage him to give in to accepting dark power for his own selfish ends rather than reasonably doing good.  SF has the moment outside the Sells house, FM has him nearly being corrupted by the hexenwulf belt, and in GP he gives in when he burns down Bianca's party and again when he kills Bianca.  This pattern's been there since Justin.

I have this rather simply put theory that N get's purchase whenever magic is used to violate freewill, which most all the Fae infected were either directly or indirectly around strong active sources of mortal magic or wizards themselves.

That feels almost the opposite of how I read it, that it is causing evil by providing free will that should not be there.

In this case the reaction from N saved Harry because it was his free will being violated by the aura of dark magic. I have no real proof of this, it just aligns well with my theorem.

Fair enough.  I tend to read that voice as the first example we have of the insight Maggie gave Harry, which Lea does a Dumbo's feather job on him with in BR (note that the other time he figures something out that is specifically referred to as insight, it is working out Lea must have bargained with his mother, in SK).

Why can't the whites be doing work into how the Reds spells work? Raith again, is actually very interested in magic apparently.

No reason why they can't.  I think this again is slightly more moving parts than my notion here though.

DF Spoilers / Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« on: December 15, 2017, 07:51:28 PM »
Angels were messengers of God and some of them fell. Sometimes messengers don't get the message. :)

Depends on their motives.

(Never mind sacrificing your life for your friends, how great a love does it take to sacrifice eternity ?)

DF Spoilers / Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« on: December 15, 2017, 07:49:58 PM »
Nemesis used to be a Greek Goddess. Now she's not, now she's what GK watches for at the gates.

I don't believe we have had it confirmed that the infiltrator Nemesis was literally the Greek goddess Nemesis, rather than another entity taking up that name (like the Lords of Outer Night pretending to be the Mayan gods).

Lucifer in particular here, because in SmF his power is described as the anti version of what TWC promotes, the idea of freedom.

I am now trying to remember which theology it is where Lucifer's revolt is prompted by being absolutely horrified that the WG would be so evil as to enable humans to make choices that would deny them Heaven.

Besides, TWG is all judgey.  Lucifer loves and rewards everyone, no matter how bad.  The bit in the Gospels about loving your enemies comes to mind.

Moral of that rant is the division between 'outsider' and insider isn't so clear, and indeed Shaggy and co all have the same vein of negative attributions as Outsiders and even Blamps, who exist inside but are apparently effected heavily by Necromancy and the power of NOT.

There's a connection between necromancy and Outsiders, beyond that free-willed humans interested in causing havoc mess about with them both and the White Council think both are a bad idea?

DF Spoilers / Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« on: December 15, 2017, 07:43:26 PM »
The whole can't exist outside of own domain without incurring debt and their descendant Grey's need to pay Rent,

Have we some evidence for Grey's Rent being a general skinwalker thing rather than specific to Grey in particular, who seems to be only part-skinwalker?  The comparison that makes most sense to me there is the changelings in SK (and Sarissa in CD) making particular efforts to choose to be human or Faerie or indeed to defer choosing.

DF Spoilers / Re: Shagnasty and co. all nemfected?
« on: December 15, 2017, 07:41:05 PM »
We got the very British sounding guy everyone is willing to accept as Nefected but conceivably an actual mortal... but totally leave behind the signifigence of him saying he needs to be in their and why that is.

Since when has everyone been willing to accept that guy as Nemfected?  Last I heard, the prevailing wisdom was that he was the original Merlin and in there voluntarily.

DF Spoilers / Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« on: December 15, 2017, 07:39:02 PM »
Switching between real and perceived strength. The perceived strength of the council certainly grew after Chichen Itza but the real strength did not and now they are at war with the Fomor.

We have Luccio's word early in Changes that the Council's real strength then is twice what it was before the attack in DB.  With that being her area of expertise and her having no motivation to lie there, I am inclined to believe her.

And the red courts actions and aims were not based on the white councils perceived strength after they were destroyed but on how strong the white council seemed to be around Summer Knight and that was weak.

At that point they were willing to make a peace offer in exchange for Harry.

We see in Changes what happens to anyone who makes a formal peace offer under the Accords and does not deliver.

Therefore, either they seriously meant the peace offer, or they would have betrayed it and all been dead in a few days.

In this case it did not prove the white councils strength, it proved that other powers wanted the red court gone.

You are ignoring WoJ, and I believe also Eb explicitly saying in the text, that a wizard's strength is measured by the allies they bring.

The White Council bringing a ton of different powers to the battle with them isn't "We are weak, we need help".  It's "look how strong we are because we made alliances and brought all these people to the table."

They are now at war with the white council and that started exactly at the same moment the big red court attack was supposed to happen. That is coordinated and that would have helped the red court enormously if it was still there to profit from it. They did not back out when they heard about the downfall of the red court because by then it was probably too late.

You don't think the chaos caused by the loss of the Red Court is beneficial to anyone seeking to take advantage of it?

Attacking the white council exactly at the moment of the great red court attack is a strange way of achieving that. Doing nothing would have been better.

Which part of "let's you two guys fight to the death, whoever survives will be weaker and then I can jump in and finish them off, and that gets rid of two major rivals rather than one" is striking you as poor strategy here?

That is not taking into consideration the nature of that party. Big sacrifices on high altars are feasts were everyone eats. You don't invite food to these parties as guests unless you want to eat them. This was a private vampire thing

Requiring the Red Court to be morons with no ability to put strategic good sense, like actually putting all the defences they can call on around as major a strike as they are planning at CI, ahead of satisfying their bloodlust again doesn't parse with them having spent centuries not starting a war.

There is no reason to believe the red council was peaceful all that time, there is more in the world than the white council to fight with.

There is reason to believe they were not rampantly violating the Accords because they still exist.  And we are certain they were not bad neighbours to the White Council because Eb says in PG that the Council have not been at war like this in a thousand years.

They expanded from their original base in central america to a far bigger empire just before their fall. That does not happen without war.

You have some evidence for this being just before their fall rather than a slow process occupying all the centuries since first contact ?

Sure but Mab is not there to protect puppies.

She is there to protect signatories.

The accords leave a lot of room for war and killing. They are not there to protect the weak but to give tools to end endless cycles of pointless violence. But both parties need to agree to stop the war.

Note that Nicodemus' offence in SmF is specifically called out as attacking the Archive without cause or warning.  That is evidence for the Accords regulating when and how signatories may go to war.  Note also that Marcone sees the Accords as regulating who is likely to attack him, and in "Even Hand", he is entirely sure, having just killed a fairly senior Fomorian, that as a signatory he can unilaterally pay wergild and that legally resolves the matter; the Fomor's agreement is not required.

And I am trusting Shiro and Thomas who both know better.

Thomas, who is part of a conspiracy that Martin admits on the page, in Changes, was there to assassinate Ortega and keep the war going because otherwise it would have stopped?

We know what Thomas is doing there, and why.  We know what he wants from Harry.  Why there is any reason at all to trust what he says with that motive established, I do not know. 

Shiro, on the other hand, is part of an organisation who explicitly choose to put faith ahead of evidence, as we see in their insistence on continually providing opportunities for Denarian hosts to repent.

DF Spoilers / Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« on: December 14, 2017, 08:54:07 PM »
Bianca actually. Everything about her. Pretty sure Uppity Red Nobles seeking to ascend and intercourt Sorcerous activities were specifically on multiple lists.

How is that not adequately explained by a) her wanting revenge on Harry and b) Mavra manipulating her, including specifically teaching her how to use dark magic?

There by ignoring all connections between Outsiders, Walkers and Nemesis. That Nemesis's presence in CD was manifested by a Walker and a bunch of minor outsiders trying to break open the Max security Prison.

I'm not ignoring that; I am not claiming that Nemesis is not a tool of the Outsiders and used by them.

I am saying that suddenly blaming Nemesis for most of everything that has gone wrong in the whole series is not supported.

and actually, if you look at how the Fae pay lip service to the Balance/rent by not violating Hope, Love or Faith, I can directly connect here what you call N to something not directly Nemesis itself.  Hope is balance with Fear, Fae service is Duty,(which I can totally find a complex paper someone else wrote on why Duty is a warriors form of Hope, but I lack the ability to sufficiently explain to my own satisfaction) Faith is keeping their word and Love is respecting Homestead laws(which love is the primary force of empowerment in a familial nature)

I'm not familiar with what you are referring to here; if this a bit of speculation/analysis from the past couple of years I may well have missed it.

What's been satisfactorily explained?

Every major plot point prior to CD has a solid plausible explanation in the text except for Aurora going loopy.

Many of them have multiple solid plausible explanations in the text.

But your insisting the opposite it feels like, that anything not Nemesis is not related to Nemesis..

I am not saying that.

I am saying anything not Nemesis is not proven to be related to Nemesis.  There is a big difference.
Nemesis infects Fairie specifically and easily because that's where they got their power, that's why Mab has an aspect of Judgement. From the Literal Greek Goddess Nemesis, and the Scales, those are HER scales. they fed her to the stone table and split the power and the image so that their would be no mirror not already balanced inside reality. So she'd have no foothold.

Again, where is this coming from?  It makes sense, but I am not recalling textev for it unless I have missed a lot in a recent short story.

Mayhaps the Yeats second coming,which is ALL about the coming apocalypse and is specifically mentioned by Murphy whenever things are getting wonky, also quoted by Maeve about being the 'falcon'. Nemesis is the destabilizing factor and then he quotes something that's been reference all over regarding that same destabilization...

Yep, because that poem is one of the most frequently quoted in any end of the world novel anywhere; George RR Martin uses it a lot in The Armageddon rag for example.

Leaving out the Arctis Tor events... very selective reasoning on that.

We have no evidence linking Namshiel to Nemesis at Arctis Tor.

Here is a plausible alternative explanation: 

Arctis Tor is normally guarded by tons of trolls and goblins.  Harry and Thomas can't plausibly break through that big a force by themselves.

Mab can't ask Harry to break in and rescue Molly directly without using up a favour, which she doesn't want to do.

Mab can't just order the trolls away because that will be suspicious as heck.

Therefore, Mab hires a Denarian to attack the trolls and goblins and open the way for Harry. (we have a WoJ that Mab would sacrifice her entire court in an instant if there was gain to be had).

Namshiel, or possibly Nicodemus, was there working for Mab.  This is why Mab owed Nicodemus a favour in SG.

Note also; Harry's first conversation with Mab in SmF involves her hiding something from his mind (the blasting wand), and distracting him from noticing with a brutal headache.  When he mentions Namshiel at the end of SmF, she slaps him down again, and he never mentions Namshiel again.   Not even when hanging out with Denarians.

Does this make sense to you?

Multiple places, of course if we take everything said as wrong, then we have no idea what going on and neither you a leg to stand on as I can point this out too for literally everything, as everything is from Harry's perspective. So saying multiple sources are inherently lying or wrong becomes and endless cycle.

Not at all, because saying "everyone could be wrong" is not saying we haven't a leg to stand on.  We can assess who might be wrong or lying based on what we know about them.  Fallen lie all the time.  Faerie tell the literal truth in a misleading way.  Michael Carpenter's value of being a good man includes respect for the truth, but he has also said if anything good happens and he does not know where it comes from he credits the White God, which means that if he got a random gift from Odin and did what he said he does he would be wrong about its origin.

Quite frankly as Mr. GK is the resident(as in resident of fricken reality) expert on said things I wouldn't see why we should simply dismiss him either.

I am not dismissing him.  I would point out the inherent difficulties of confirming any evidence about Nemesis when part of your working model is "never mention it to anyone", though.

We have Odins comment about Harry not yet seeing who the real players are too, but that won't count I suppose...

Oh, I entirely count that.  It's part of why I believe the real players are still to come, and Nemesis is as much of a red herring for One-Explanation-For-Everything as the "Black Council" was.

and just so I feel like i'm not the only one getting holes poked into them, for what purpose did the Red court thereby empower the Shadowman to do what he did in SF? Seems you like to have all your ducks in a row, what you got there?

I see several purposes there, depending on how well informed the enemies are.  Challenge Harry; challenge Marcone; expose Harry to an option that nearly turns him to the dark side (just outside the Sells' house, before he hears the mysterious female voice, he is very near using the drug against the wardens); set Harry up to be executed; set Harry up to have the Doom lifted so that he'll be harder for the Council to disavow come GP and subsequent books when he is being set up as cause of the war.

Cause fyi, it's also surmised Raith and his books of Magic were involved, what with the Name of Shadowmans old company having the word Silver in it and Lust being the most effective spellframe... funny that, a Red used spell is best used with Whites Lust power..

Funny that people regard that connection as significant when Odin tells Harry directly in Changes that the spell the Reds were using at CI was the one the Shadowman tested out; I take the direct evidence over the similarity there.  Particularly as we know from "love Hurts" that the Reds are specifically doing research into understanding the White Lust power.

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