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Messages - Wicked Woodpecker of West

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DF Spoilers / Re: A thought About Butters
« on: November 28, 2020, 06:14:21 PM »
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The point is these stories were invented with a purpose. Legitimizing the absolute rule of the king. Making rejecting that rule not just a crime against the state but one against god himself. They did not have the technology and the organization but this is the legitimation, the underpinning of totalitarian rule, of the absolute monarchy.

Absolute monarchies which never reached level that could be called totalitarian maybe aside few short periods in Russian tzardom, evolved way way way later than most of dynasties, and kingdoms. And squabbling with kings was common thing for all medieval period - without rejecting system itself.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 27, 2020, 06:23:11 PM »
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Like I said for good or ill, because will power can close one's mind to the truth as well as hold one to the truth.

Well of course, yes.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 27, 2020, 04:44:19 PM »
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By your example, willpower is an overpowering of base emotion.

Yes. Willpower is something that allows you to enforce your will and reason on emotions, in wizard case more widely - on emotions but also on energies of uniwerse (as we know those as simmilar - as aura of emotion in Battle Ground allow Dresden to overcharge his spells.)
But I do not see as emotion on itself. I see it as faculty. Like senses are faculties of perception - you see or hear something. Sight of beauty or sound of shagnasty laugh can cause emotions but it's secondary effect to perception itself.

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DF Spoilers / Re: A thought About Butters
« on: November 27, 2020, 04:40:16 PM »
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But te claim matters. If they make enough people believe it it will have a power of its own. And maybe it is even true. In the Dresden verse.

But knights do not operate on claims. They all have king's blood but not kingly claims.
Remnants of king's spiritual power is good for knights in some way.

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Or he made it a red herring because the idea was not as good as he first thought.  ;D

There is a lot wrong with that idea if you believe in democracy and human rights and so on.

You can believe in democracy and human rights and still accept such power brings certain spiritual power with itself.
One can say entire Dresden Files premise is very anti-egalitarian with wizards being rare born superheroes for instance.

But I think problem is more with lack of clear rules - like what constitutes for a king in a first place. Was let's say Joseph Stalin a king?
If king is wicked and exploits people shall he leaves proper spiritual aura in his blood descendants and so on...

And also as Jim notices - descendants of kings are half of mankind these days.
I mean 10% of all Irishmen are descendants in direct male line (so count all the female lineages) of one man living about 1500 years ago presumed to be king Neill of Nine Hostages. Which makes all thing bit redundant.
You know I have less problem with this idea as a Christian - I mean Jesus itself was born on purpose in side depowered lineage of David dynasty on his human side, so it is within our symbolic rules. I have more problem that basically each time you can get intel about it. Dresden got like king lineage to all three original Knights, even though neither belongs to even side nobility at these point. I call bollocks on this research :P

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That's why I think the Oblivion War and the Archive are separate from the Outsiders and their connection to the fae courts. Ivy's role is to run around turning dinosaur gods into ghosts, so she's neutral so Summer, Winter, and everyone else let her do her thing in the shadows.

But then Thomas implies - of course he is young and can speak bollocks - that Oblivionites conspired to destroy Faerie. Considering what we know about Fae role in protecting reality this is either: Thomas telling some Venatori urban legends, or sign Whampires who are imporant part of Oblivionites could have different priorities. At least White King in XV century.

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I hope so? It's just a complicated question that may offend some readers so he may stay away.

Look you cannot just promise Apocalypse and then pretend all this Abrahamic vs Pagan vs Fae vs whatever thing does not matters for it.
And I think that reactions of Ethniu to various supernaturals shows us she had complicated history - more even with Angels than with Mab, and this whole thing will matter for a future books.

While as a Christian I have special dose of sentiment to DF for Michael Carpenter I'm not expecting mad urban fantasy novels to keep proper thomist metaphysics. And I hope neither are Asatru readers gonna be angry if Odin and his generation of gods shall turn into just Grigori Angels sucking at their jobs :P

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I think it was the fall of Lucifer that broke reality, they even mention in Skin Game how devastating a Fall can be. But yeah, free will in the Dresden Files is contradictory to say the least.

It may be. Depends what overall story of Creation we shall get.

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I thought they were in the Hospital, not the NeverNever unless Harry opened a way.

They moved to Nevernever as spirit managed to get enough grip it retreated to it's ghost dimension in NN while still killing babies in Hospital.
That's why Lea was able to catch them there.

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DF Spoilers / Re: A thought About Butters
« on: November 26, 2020, 10:55:11 PM »
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And all Anglo Saxon kings descended from Woden. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_royal_genealogies

Well so they claim. But I doubt eventual blood of Odin matters. As much as I understand WOJ about it - this whole king magic is more like state-wide obligation of responsibility and protection. A debt. A threshold... A mantle in a way. That's what causes descendants of kings (which are multiple) to have enough mojo to take Swords.


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DF Spoilers / Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 26, 2020, 10:50:46 PM »
Well yes there are many feelings associated - but feeling of pride, feeling of pleasure coming from power are not the same as willpower.
Willpower is more like mental endurance, mental HP of mind/soul/spirit. It's not a feeling on it's own.
Mab has tremendous willpower and she mostly (not totally) phased out of all emotion thing.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 26, 2020, 04:39:20 PM »
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Yet so far garlic seems to have more effect on Black vamps than articles of faith.  Though I agree with you about the Reds, yet it was Harry's pentacle that saved him from Bianca.

I know. I think if Jim would re-write books 1 and 2 after writing 3, he would shift it a bit.
I kinda like that Reds are vampires that are repelled - by pure physical violence, as they are most physical beings.
(Swords two because bat!demon rather does not like presence of angel, but not necessary a mortal faith)

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DF Spoilers / Re: A thought About Butters
« on: November 26, 2020, 04:37:34 PM »
Both Aragorn and Denethor house were descendants of Luthien and elven princess Idril Celebrindal through Elros.

Yes house of stewards married more among non-Numenoreans, still Denethor was probably second after Aragorn in amount of old Numenorean power. He was able to fight for palantir in will-duel with Sauron and win, this is not something common mortal could do.

Nevertheless this pure race aspect is less important in terms of real royalty as most kings married foreign princesses anyway

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DF Spoilers / Re: A thought About Butters
« on: November 26, 2020, 01:37:53 PM »
I don't think it's that hard.
I mean otherwise Charlemagne blood would not work for Michael - as he is definitely not legal heir to Carolingian monarchy.
I think any royal lineage - not even legitimate in sense of crown would work well enough - so even Y chromosomes would not necessarily work - it could all be through maternal lines. (Which also is a reason why I dislike this idea - because I guess at least half of mankind have SOME royal ancestor which makes whole RULE quite cheap.).

Michael may be descendant of Charlemagne in some way but he is definitely not one in line that would make him eligible to throne of France for instance. Neither are other guys. It's more than mystical element of king's blood stick around for a long time.

Now Aragorn had very fine claim to the throne as last descendant in direct male line of Elendil. But then if we compare it - Knight of the Cross is not a King. In fact probably he should not be a King (though we know there were exceptions) as it would make him involved in various mundane actions that are usually not so virtuous. - But let's compare it to Tolkien.

Sure Boromir, Faramir, Denethor - those guys have king's bloods, High Numenorean blood, thought they are not king lineage. They are not as strong, tall, longlived and willpowered as Aragorn, still they are way more powerful in those aspects for good or bad than any random Rohirrim or Daleman or Haradrim.

At least I hope so - because dammit if Jim's want to suggest Knights need not also king's blood but also legitimate claim, I'm gonna fly to USA, drive all the way from Chicago to whatever Kansas desert he's hiding and hit him with a head three times with some big, complex, academic book about history of medieval kingdoms.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 26, 2020, 01:26:18 PM »
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I am, harry literally described it  as such when talking about dark magic recently. I hate not having a hard copy of PT, cause I'm thinking it was in there.. "blank" are also emotions, though subtler and "blank"

If you have quote I shall welcome it - I scanned PT epub for all references to emotions and neither fits.
Willpower is ability to control own emotions, not emotion on itself IMHO.

I mean there can be feeling (not emotion) of power, which can be addicting pleasure of Dark Magic - but it's not emotion. Pleasure is feeling - not emotion.

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Which basically fits how both the White Court and the Red Court feed.  While I get that the Red Court didn't feed off of emotion like the White Court does, still they can be repelled by an article representing the faith of the would be victim.  Bianca was repelled by Harry's mother's pentacle, which not only represented his faith in his magic, but her love in leaving it to him.  At least in Storm Front, Harry alludes to feeling her love for him though the pentacle.

Indeed. And it was sort of only subjective but really honest Faith - enough to repel Reds.
TBH I have sort of feeling it was early draft about how vampires works - because it does not fits well with Red Court for me - as they are basically more bestial and almost werebatish beings implying primal spirits - faith seems like something more suited for Dresden Blacks.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 26, 2020, 02:14:45 AM »
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Mirror Mirror is supposed to be about evil Harry killing other Harry's.  Or am I mistaken? That would imply many splits.

Overall yes of course. We can safely assume lot of alternative Dresden's.
Especially since it's not Harry's choices splitting universes. I'm quite sure there are many alt-Dresdens put on different path by someone's elses choices around.

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Jim has implied a statistical theory of branching.  When Harry learns the name of Nemesis Mother Summer says that it creates many new possibilities.

But I think it's more about his decision what to do about it. I mean he learned name from Titania - if anything choice to call Titania which is risky business for him, is split maker - Titania did her duty afterwards, it seems.

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So between what Mother Summer showed Harry and what Vadderung theorizes that there could be thousands of branches with Harry in them.  My internal canon would be that to get to those other branches that they would have to be close to Harry Prime to be able to get there.  So for instance, there might be a universe where Harry never manifested his magic, but is unreachable since it's a low probability event and is too far from this timeline. There might be a universe where Susan never became aware of the events at the party, she never becomes infected, and the whole event never triggers the Vampire war.

That's quite possible. But if it's choices splitting reality - then choice have to be made.
I mean Darth Dresden is from Grave Peril - so he is quite far away. 15 years of different history for both him and supernatural community. Quite far to reach. But then it's possible that's because - if he reaches to close timelines - oh more dangerous necromantic Darth Dresden's there. Better to seek further and find some good Dresden's too kill.

And about Vadderung paradox. Dunno how good this prediction is compared to WOJ.
In my calculation - first there is a choice to do such stupid stunt - that leads us to split - we have world when Dresden thought better, and we have world where Dresden went back in time. We know that if he go back to his timeline nothing will change (if he survives) because it's stil original timeline. But fight itself when started is not much of a choice it seems. It's not like both chances have a 50:50 winning ticket.

Such attacks split reality - as it changes events, but event itself should not be necessarily splittable.

Assuming only one choice - to go back in time and kill McCoy is given - that would imply 3 branches.

1. line when Dresden made choice to not do it
2. line when Dresden decided to do it - depending on whether he survived and returned it may be just line where Dresden just disappeared.
3. split line by timetravel where Dresden tried to murder McCoy - whatever result of such fight - new line is created.

So basically two splits from one choice. That's dangerous inflation. Maybe that's why it's forbidden as you use not enough mana and get too much energy ;)

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Why only two  choices and why is one a "dark twin." I guess one is almost always going to result in an at least marginally better world than the other because it's hard to imagine to choices with different but equal results.

That's simplification of course - sure it can be more.
But there is assumption that choice always mean two options - problem is - in your model choice can mean one option vs natural option and still be a choice.

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Let's say it's one's nature to freeze. If one were to choose to act instead, they can choose to run, fight, or talk one's way out of the situation. If one chooses to run, they can choose to run in any of 360 degrees in all sorts of different manners.

That's quite problemtic. Panic freeze is not even on a same level as any voluntary action.
It's like assuming you can have free will to walk when someone cut off your legs for me.

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But we don't know how many universes result from a choice.

So it's one choice but you get like dozen identical universes (for a moment) with the same choice made?

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I just had a thought about everything Harry does in GP being in character or in line with his nature. There's one thing he did that I think wasn't. Telling Susan that he loved her. I don't see how not telling her results in Harry surviving, but I really think if anything was out of character for Harry, it was that. Recall that Michael had to drag it out of Harry at the very beginning of the book. He didn't want to say that he loved Susan to Michael, who he told about Elaine.

But would that mean that admitting to Michael also was a split. I'd assume in one's nature is also certain borders when to fall - naturally. Add enough emotion and even someone keeping cards close can spill the beans.
And situation in "Grave Peril" seems like situation that would make him to do it. His emotional state in this moment is IMHO aligned with this decision.

Only really weird choice - but not for our Harry but Darth Dresden would be to let go of Susan. But it's SO MUCH against Dresden nature I cannot see it as viable choice.
If there's dark choice I can see Harry making in a GP - it's allowing Sword to be destroyed to save Susan. But I'm not sure if there was a proper moment really.

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No, I don't think MM is The One. I understood that MM Harry would summon a Harry (which will be ours) to act as a decoy. Only one, as far as I understood.

There's theory it was not a first time, and Darth Dresden is playing a Kemmler.

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Don't look at it as competition.

All Whamps are supernatural hot.

Only Raith feeds on lust. Raith feeds super easily- other Whamps need to do work to feed- but are most vulnerable, since true love would be most common.

Burning could just be failure to latch. Less technically protection, more "that access port is already in use"


True love more common than courage or hope that repells fear-eaters and despair-drinkers. I have doubts about this statistics.

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Alienates new readers. In theory, each book should be sufficiently self-contained to be picked up and read by someone off the street.

Your being an early fan is your problem, not anyone else's

I get it (although considering how things are repeated WITHIN one book cannot be defended by this claim).
But I consider it overall foolish theory. Especially for Dresden Files - book with apocalyptic metaplot planned since 2000, tighter and tighter every book. Any sane reader after noticing he reads book 17, would well change a book. It's like starting Lord of the Rings from Return of the King.

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DF Spoilers / Re: The Bodies
« on: November 26, 2020, 01:42:27 AM »
That's generally a problem. I think also overall DF can be bit wonky about material vs spiritual status of certain beings.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 26, 2020, 01:41:14 AM »
I'm not sure willpower is an emotion. It's more a faculty of self, like mental endurance. Within DF it may be or not sign of using free will.

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It isn't about romance, think of the quote,

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him may not die but have eternal life."

That about sums up the three Holy Swords doesn't it?  Love, Faith, and Hope, that is also what true love is about.

Indeed. Sacrifical love is closer. Agape. Caritas.
But then mechanics of True Love against whampires suggest it's different set of things. Like relation between God and world, Jesus and humanity was never mutual relation of equals (as True Love is according to Jim). If anything it's more comparable to parent protecting children (who cannot do anything to protect father) and parental love as WOJ teaches do jackshit against whampires (otherwise whampires would be burned way more often I think).

By the way such alternative whampires could be quite cool as very dark psychic monsters - if they can feed of you it means you are basically unloved and unloving. Dark place to go.

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I'm not saying Hell and Outside are the same, I'm saying that what made Lucifer Radiant, what made him the Morning Star is what got tossed outside when what became Satan was sent down to Hell. Think of it as throwing something in the garbage and the saran wrap coating falls on the floor instead while most of it goes in the bin. Unless the 666 in the Number of the Beast refers to something completely different. Or Alan Moore was right and Satan's number is 616 and 666 refers to the Outsiders. (Damn dimensional area codes)

If anything I'd expect to Lucifer somehow be responsible of Starborn's creation, maybe even as part of his pre-Fall job.
Sort of like mechanism to fend of any Outsider small but fierce guys running around mortals, where angel cannot reach without exploding Milky Way.

Maybe he's nicknamed Lucifer (as I doubt Latin name is his original) because of this STAR LIGHT he brings, once every few centuries.

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That seems like a reasonable and in character motivation for Lara taking part in the Oblivion War. We've also seen the Whites using Outsider help during the duel in the caves so they aren't opposed to asking for some reality bending help.

Sure. Whites lacks one agenda - they are humans with free will after all.
Lara and Malvora clearly were on opposed sites of whole reality-saving thing.

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Ivy sure, but past Archive's are a different matter entirely. I imagine Rashid would make a joke about his young friend eventually pitching in or something.

If Archive is sworn to neutrality - it could mean she was not used because she simply cannot be used - except very specific circumstances.

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Indeed. I doubt we'll ever actually get an answer. Fun to speculate though!

I'm quite sure we've gonna get the answer. Jim is not a guy that abstain from using his Chekhov's Guns well.

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Did it depower or empower us? If we were meant to be magical god like things that acted in harmony with creation maybe it did take away our power and Talents are all that's left. If knowledge and free will were our gifts then the snake set us free. I totally agree about the story in the bible not agreeing with the message on Free Will in the Dresden Files.

I mean this is quite complex area. Within theology of course Adam and Eve had free will (that's why they could fall), and without fall this will would just aligned freely with God. Also knowledge of evil is treated in many ways as anti-knowledge - as evil is sort of distortion of being rather than real part of ...well reality. In a way you can know it only by being tainted by it.

But that within theology.
I'm more curious about God perspective in all this mess in DF, and purpose of mankind and free will overall.

If it's somehow simmilar to Christian beliefs then free will was rather not designed as a way to fend off outsiders, but maybe used later. Maybe it was Fall that ripped Reality new one, and all the rest of all possible histories is just one massive damage control.

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Maybe in Ghost Story?

Michael slain ghost in "Grave Peril" I'm sure

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