Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Wicked Woodpecker of West

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 14
16
DF Spoilers / Re: A thought About Butters
« on: November 26, 2020, 01:22:22 AM »
Look if AfroRussian can have detectable lineage to Saladin, then I'm quite sure Butters can have detectable line to Genghis Khan

17
Quote
If we run with that idea what is getting Obliviated are the remnants of ancient primordial earthly spirits that never learned to play nice with the new status quo instituted by TWG. This creates some distance between the Oblivion War and the Outer Gates and explains why the Archive isn't hunting nemesis and the Walkers instead.

It seems so - Oblivated beings seems to be imprisoned in some distant places of Nevernever or Earth like The Sleeper not Outside, even if they are superficialy separated. It may of course be result of some of them being to hard to remove by Outside Gates.

Quote
Okay, so if we go with the theory that they existed independently or were created to function independently my  theory that a chunk of Lucifer got tossed outside and that made the gates is still possible.

Yes. But it's contradicted by lot of elements showing that Hell and Outside are separate places, working in different way.
Fallen like Angels are extremely limited in ability to enforce power, Outsiders when summoned can wreak havoc of great magnitude.
And there's WOJ about Denarians working against Outsiders IIRC.

I think Outsiders want to destroy reality as it's anathema to it. Lucifer and other Fallen just want to take over as rulers.

Quote
I agree with you that the lesser ones may be corrupted gods but I think there's a distinct difference between the Outsiders and the Oblivion War. If there's a connection between the White Court and the Outsiders why would the Raiths take part in the Oblivion War as soldiers and why would Winter keep a mature Archive on the sidelines? She's a Lady/Queen level power with less restrictions. Unless she's the tactical nuke they keep in reserve it doesn't make much strategic sense to me.

White Court Vampires are humans+. Demon empowers them, but other than that they are mortals.
They want to rule mortal world - even if Outsiders are source of whampire creation does not mean Lara Raith wants to destroy universe.
(Neverthless White Court officially worked with Reds during war and Reds used Outsider help).

Let's not mix species or origin of power with purpose of units. Lara for all we know - just want to keep all non-vamp, not-permanently material sups out of mortal world, so mortal abandon magic and religion, and become easy pray to her brand of hedonism.

With Archive thing is - as she has not yet sire daughter - killing her could destroy Archive altogether. Her mantle. Risky business - and Archive is older than Queens.

Quote
My question is really were the Gates made by the Creator, a traitor (possibly seduced from outside), a Remnant of Outside left inside, or were they made by accident?

All things are possible, depends on specific metaphysical relation between Creator and Outside.

Quote
A traitor/remnant could explain why HWWBesides is known as nemesis or explain the story of Adam and Eve.

I mean Adam and Eve seems to be Lucifer's job.
It was meant to de-power mankind - although considering how role of free will differs in Christianity and in Dresden Files - I mean Adam and Eve in Dresden Files had to be stages somehow I think - because Creator needed more branches or smth. I mean in Christianity Angels are around to guide choices not to just protect free will.

Quote
If something Magical is killed in the Never Never does it retain corporeal form or decay into ectoplasm?

Good question. Have we ever seen something purely spiritual slain in Nevernever - some ghosts I assume.

18
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 25, 2020, 02:24:36 PM »
Quote
I've repeatedly said some number of universes are created that are less than all possible choices. To oversimplify my head canon, there are two universes created by every act of free will. One where the actor chooses to act one way and another where they choose to act in a different way. Each choice is a choice to act beyond and in opposition to what an otherwise accurate deterministic model of the Dresdenverse would have predicted.

I get it, Alias. I just disagree - for me such model solves nothing.
Free will against deterministic model - as a split branch - that I can get it. But free will annuling deterministic branch - nope, not really. It's just pointless. Especially since Mab pointed out that destiny is important and branching new timeline from it - is very dangerous.
Which to me suggest original deterministic model of each branch - survives each time, when choice made another one.

Also it assumes each time there is possibility to choice there are two options - both of which are unnatural. So not one choice against own nature, but also for some reason it's dark twin.

Don't buy it. And I see no reason, not even good clue to believe it works that way in DF.
If anything I see clues Universe Prime shall always exists on track, but if you made choice against destiny you shall land into new branch - new dangerous and unpredictable branch.

Quote
Determinists would say that the appearance of choice is an illusion and all biology, reason, thinking, etc. just boils down to physics.

Now if each choice in Dresden Files results in all possible choices then indeed it's kinda deterministic.
But removing option 0 as you propose only limits scale of determinism - still if desting says A and you will say B, then A stops to exist, but for some reason C, D, and E are created that can be even further from A and B, and even less plausible... for some reason.

It's like - natural choice is to run, but you stay and fight - you create option B. OK, but why other options are created? What option C when you join your enemies which is even less plausible? Why would it happen at all.

Quote
What if there are thousands of possible choices and two universes result?

But we know there are much more universes due to WOJ.
For me choice POSSIBLE is choice that your Reason, your mind, your intellect put on a scales before your Will to act.
Unless such is not presented - you just ran on determined way as you cannot do another thing.

I can imagine stabbing my entire family to death with a knife, but I'd not say I made time-splitting choice by not doing it, as it was mere figment of imagination not something I considered as viable choice.

If not damn - my dopplegangers must be some Jim the Ripper of Multiverse by now. Dammit

Quote
The problem with Free Will as Jim uses it, is that it is contrived and not subject to analysis. Thousands of choices got Harry to whatever point he gets to. By the time you get to whatever the event is, there really aren't any choices left to make, assuming that Dresden is who he is. You've already made them prior to that instant. Which is what Uriel is saying.

But we now discuss Dresden Prime perspective but how free will works for multiverse and how mechanism of timeline split works.
Sure previous choices in any timeline are PAST.




19
DF Spoilers / Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 25, 2020, 02:10:49 PM »
Quote
I still see no difference between love as an emotion and love as a force of virtue, heck, as a force of creation itself for that matter.

I'm not sure about Dresden-verse mechanics, but IRL I can totally see practicing virtue of love without any backup from your own emotions.
Not to mention - virtue of love as describe by Paul in his hymn, is in Greek different word than love in romantic, erotic, friendship or paternal sense. Each of those have separate words for it. Paul forged basically own neologism - agape - to show it's not the same thing.
Most of languages around unfortunately have poorer vocabulary than Koine Greek - that's why Latin stuck basically with two - amor and caritas (and caritas was chosen as translation of agape - TBH contrary to what Butcher used.) But definitely in Christianity virtue of love is closer to charity than to all this emotional loves around.

Quote
But true love is in the same category as the love that empowers Ammorachius.  Or rather there is no difference.

It may be or not. For me it's something of smaller scale definitely. But then I'm staunch antiromantic, so I have my biases :P



20
DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis [BG SPOILERS]
« on: November 25, 2020, 01:35:34 PM »
OK thanks I'm gonna look for it.

Now that suits my theory that Gods and Titans and Dragons are lesser type of half-fallen Angels :3

21
DF Spoilers / Re: The Accords, the Council, and Harry
« on: November 24, 2020, 10:21:50 PM »
Quote
Call it a pet Titan if you want, Jim muddies the water so much that what he chooses to call what makes little difference. He  can call out the Titan if he wishes. So says Battle Ground. And he could maybe call out any critter in Demonreach. Did we read the same book?

Ah, this one! OK, I'm owned. I'd never ever consider to call Ethniu and Alfred's menagerie as pet gods ;)


22
DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis [BG SPOILERS]
« on: November 24, 2020, 10:20:13 PM »
Quote
These gods are primal elemental forces of the universe. They existed, according to WOJ, before Reality was made...in some form.

Well my call was that they are basically angels responsible of shaping and governing immanent reality, that went rogue, but not that rogue as Lucifer and his cronies. But could you quote this WOJ - it seems I missed it or misread it.

Quote
The new gods are Mab and the like. Mortals with mantles.

I think not. Like classic pagan gods seems to be last generation of Titan like beings - who were (?) not ascended mortal, at least not just it - Sigurn says Odin is being of Elemental Nature, and he precedes Fae. Fae are half-mortals in the end compared to old forces yes.

Quote
Sibelis is onto something, I think. I think the distinction between Gods and Angels is more about where they draw their power from, but in terms of origins they are all about the same. Considering the fact that they a existed before time (if you can really have such a thing), I would say that who is older isn't really relevant or even something that can be answered. Cause and effect didn't exist yet!

I think you can make cause and effect schemes that are not temporal, but more like ontological.

Quote
My theory has always been that the "Walkers" and such beings are the equivalent of archangels and the Old Ones are TWG level. But the main difference is what they are. Destroyers versus a Creator. I suspect the Old Ones cannot create a universe or anything meaningful, and therefore are unable to truly combat TWG. They can only destroy things, but they never can solidify or capitalise on territory they reclaim via destruction. TWG by contrast is taking up all the real estate with Creation, and every win grants even more space and makes it harder for the Outsiders and Old Ones to get that space back.

But that's just a theor

That's idea I like - forces of Uncreation. Still it's not really opposed to theory Walkers were created beings that turned to Uncreation due some ancient shit that happend. We will see.

23
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 24, 2020, 10:15:16 PM »
Quote
Emphasis added.

Yes, but it helps... nothing from my perspective. If Dresden using free will means all possible uses are enforced and split universe in two or more, then  leaving natural choice out of equation, changes nothing because still choice is more like shtick to make more universes than REAL choice. Because ALWAYS all choices will happen and person will split in all AU versions of himself.
It helps in no way really - because still it's not one unique Dresden making one unique choice that cannot be changed and shall change fate of the universe - it's all possible Dresdens doing all possible choices. Which matters from perspective of specific split!Dresdens but not from multiverse perspective - not from Creation perspective which holds all possible Dresdens.

So if choice is not really unique I see no reason to exclude natural choices - it's just make things unecessary convoluted and do not solve problem of uniqueness of Harry Dresden at all. Oh, look it's just one AU Dresden from 15 less. Great, now I feel our Dresden is so much more unique, dammit.

Quote
I'd say your's is an odd definition of against. It's often in one's best interest to act against one's nature.

That depends how you define nature. If just as pure biological emotions then sure - but human between free will and animalistic instincts there is like shit-ton of psychology in work.

Quote
I disagree with the intellect over emotion/instinct definition of free will. I'd more say free will is the ability to actually make a choice as opposed to a deterministic and mechanical view of reality in which we just respond to cause with effect, whether emotionally or intellectually.

But still it's limited by once intellect.
My view is - for human being able to exercise free will - his mind, his reason has to show him at least two believable alternatives. Two choices his brain can consider possible. Free will need to be based on lower perception - or there is no choice to talk about. Sometimes brain gives us really just one choice - and we just go with it. Sometimes it shows us two or more, then the game begins.
But if your brain shows your self two possible choices - then neither of those choices is like just emotional reaction determined by situation, otherwise alternative would be not presented by reason. So if there is a possible choice - then choice have to be taken, because our perception, our intellect puts us before two possible door at least. If our reason won't show us alternatives - choice is impossible, as there's only one mechanical mode of working. If it shows us alternatives then neither is like NATURAL and DETERMINED because choice was given, and neither is certain till choice is made.

Quote
If everything is a choice and every choice results in a reality where the consequences of that choice plays out, does free will even exist? Every choice must be made, so no choice is volitional. If it's not volitional, it's not a choice. Thus if everything is a choice and:

I understand it Alias. Just for me your solution does not make free will more expensive really.
Primo if you make choice against nature in your equation - but there is no alternative that is ALSO against nature, then only this one Choice is made, and universe won't split because natural choice is just dropped from equation. But if you have two choices against nature - all shall happen each time you use even one of them. And that's still cheapens what Dresden is doing - because for every choice there are other choices. Skipping natural won't help, it's still cheapened from cosmic perspective. There still will be hunderds or thousands of Dresden playing all those choices out.

So it's more like - Universe is almost determined but you can sometimes split it into multiple branches which destroys primeval line of determinism, not just make new branches, and so on, and so on, and so on. I somehow doubt it because we know even if people use free will seldom it's still enough to make helluva splits, and Mab warned that it's not a wise choice to split destiny.

In your equation - basic determined outcome is doomed, because free will shall destroy it.

I think in this moment we need to get in peace with simple answer: free will matters as a way to multiply Creation and therefore create choices in which well Reality is not eaten by Outsiders for instance. Which can be one of million branches for all we know. Nevertheless all shall be played and billions shall perish beyond Outer Gates.
And it matters from personal perspective of our Harry which is maybe one of possible Harrys and in the end all Harry's had to happen each time choice was given, but still he's unique because he's our hero, and go to hell Darth Dresden.

I can live with that, even if I'd prefer if Jim read less Marvel/DC :P

Quote
It seems inevitable because emotions are the expression of your nature which is linked with your spiritual power which is linked to your magic. Magic is strongly linked with emotions.

Intelect is too. Just Harry won't use it much in his spellcraft, so he cannot precisely disintegrate enemies for instance.


24
DF Spoilers / Re: Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]
« on: November 24, 2020, 09:53:21 PM »
Quote
in the DF virtue and emotion are not mutually exclusive. They're the same thing in the DF, don't like it, argue with Jim on that one, not me..

Are they? There is really no specific data I've seen for instance connecting True Love fenomena which is anathema to lust-feeding whampires with Love as power that empoweres or guides Ammorachius. Maybe they are, maybe not, depends how Jim is versed on fact that English term love meant like 5 different nouns in Greek.

Quote
  Yeah, fine line between ordinary making love/lust, which brings pleasure upon which the White Court feeds, and true love.  I think true love for a White Court Vamp is like Daedalus flying too close to the sun, the intensity of it literally burns them.

Psychic aura of fidelity and sacrificial love can simply repel lust-feeders just like true courage repells Malvoras.
Still not necessary Celestial power withing swords, more concentrated psychic energy opposed to what whampire is trying to do with your brain, enough to make you immune,.

25
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 24, 2020, 05:45:23 PM »
Well indeed. I'm just pointing that following "gut" is just as choice-y as overcoming it, and if choice is possible, like really possible it should count as splitting decision.

26
Quote
The expansion of IndoEuropean pantheons being the inspiration for the ancient god wars makes sense so almost all of them don't work. But how can we say that they are recent arrivals to Creation when Uriel says he was fighting wars before the planet formed (so at least 5 billion years ago)? Also who's to say all of these fights over creation weren't happening back during the paleolithic, this could just be the current edition? :)

It seems quite plausible that war for reality is waged without breakes.

Quote
Were they primeval beings who sided with TWG and took up mantles of power that were made for them, locking them into a role, or did TWG make them as expressions of his will and they are indistinct beyond that?

They cannot be just expressions of his will - or they would be unable to Fall.
So they have will just in limited fashion - basically like within Christian vision of angelology.

But if TWG is The Creator - then he could just create them as separate beings and assign them roles within Creation.

Quote
But that doesn't mesh all that well with Behind saying in the Ghost Story flashback that they ruled 'here' before and will again. He could technically be referring to the space itself, but that's not a great explanation.

I see option that they just want to reclaim Creation for Empty Night for sort of religious reasons - not a bad idea.
But I'm also not against Outsiders or at least Walkers - being some very ancient beings that were banished from Reality and warped by unreal beyond what even madness of Nevernever can achieve.

Quote
What's going on with Outside and Outsiders is confusing. From what I've gathered from Lovecraft fans is that Outsiders are supposed to be confusing, so maybe that's the point.

But also Lovecraftian beings are in a way very very rational - that's why they do not care about morality or pesky mud monkeys like us.
They are manifestations of Reality. Immanent to it. Wherever's life there's Shub-Niggurath, wherever's space there's Yog Soggoth.
It's Cosmos itself, Space itself that's terrifying and impossible to understand by humans, because our brains generate too much veils, and WE CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

Quote
Heck, TWG didn't need to do it all by themselves. Given the "Most Stories Are True" nature of the setting most creation myths could be true in some form or another and upon ascendancy to being Top God as it were TWG nailed the rules down and started to enforce things.

But we also know there is The Creator - which of course does not have to be TWG overseeing all creation - all multiverse. Even beings like Uriel and other archangels works in multiple universes same time - aside Skin Game when Uriel risked a lot on one card - we see just tiny glimpse of Uriel - tiny extension of his power in our universe. And he is multitasking a lot.

Quote
Also, if that's the case where TWG nailed created a bubble of reality out of pre-Reality that leaves us with three choices for the origin of the Gates: 1) they were created by accident, 2) they were a necessary byproduct of the creation process 3) someone/thing made them from the inside. #1 is my theory above, #2 we would need some confirmation from the Mothers or something, and #3 is the Nemesis thread that's going on.

Nemesis would still need a gate from Outside to reach Creation.

Quote
Given that they leave a body full of ectoplasm behind it's almost as if they are to the Never-Never as the Never-Never is the materium.

I mean most nevernever spirits would leave just ectoplasm. Faeries are sort of special - as they are part mortal and part material.
Demons, spirits and so on - need either some construct or ectoplasm body.

27
DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis [BG SPOILERS]
« on: November 24, 2020, 03:18:14 PM »
By Titans we mean wide array of beings not necessarily Greek ones.
And even Greeks let's remember basically mean - any deity that is not part of Olympian generation.
Some Zeus cousins were describes as Titans. Both Kronos and Uranos were called that.

I think in-verse difference between Titans and Gods came from level of influence they were allowed to use.
And it ended with replacing Gods with Faerie who can influence mortals even less.

And before Titans - who knows, we wander basically beyond times of proper mythologies.,


28
DF Spoilers / Re: Anyone else... disappointed? [PT/BG spoilers]
« on: November 24, 2020, 03:15:34 PM »
Quote
I would say acting against your nature is acting against your emotional makeup, against your instincts. It is based on the idea that animals (and supernatural beings) have only instincts and never act against their nature while humans are unique in having a soul, free will (and maybe superior intelligence) and can act against their animal base instinct because of higher motivations and because they want to be more than their animal self.

Indeed it seems to work that way - still if choice is possible - that is when our intellect shows us possibility of choice - as there are many actions done on instinct when such choice is just not presented to self, then following your emotional instincts is still a choice - choice of not enforcing own will over own feelings. If there is real posibility to make different choices - then following your guts is always one of them - there is no CHOICELESS option as Bad Alias seems to suggest.

Quote
Harry has chosen how he would live.  Making choices which damage that perception of self would change him for the worse.

Indeed. Considering how much of fake guilt he bears, real one that would be hard.

29
DF Spoilers / Re: "Talk To Me..." Had Carlos Already Drank the Kool-Aid?
« on: November 24, 2020, 03:06:55 PM »
TBH I really wait for book where Dresden's stubborness to be his own agent and not a Tool of Providence will lead to some great ruin.

30
DF Spoilers / Re: Drakul's game
« on: November 24, 2020, 03:06:00 PM »
Yes. It was only told that Starborn blood is for a master. Not that it's meant for specific sacrifice.
I mean Dracul was quite ready to kill Dresden right there.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 14