Author Topic: True Love's Protection  (Read 1112 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 07:48:27 PM »
Mirror Mirror isn't a time travel book and our Harry doesn't choose to go. The alternate Harry pulls him. Book 22 is going to be the time travel book so Jim can go back and fix all the continuity errors.
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Thanks, I only know what I have read here and time travel was one of the possibilities, suggested for Mirror.   

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And WoJ has stated that the "True Love" protection can only arise between two equals, not from an unequal relation (such as parent/child, etc); any form of dependence prevents it.  I don't think Lasciel's Shadow -- nor "Lash" -- can in any way be a "equal" to Harry, as she was wholly-dependent on Harry for her very existence.

Define "equals" in a relationship.  I wouldn't call Harry and Susan equals nor Harry and Murphy, and honestly were Justine and Thomas really equals?   If dependence prevents the protection, then there was a problem in all three of the above cases.  You could say that Murphy/Harry may have been the most equal, but in a lot of ways not.

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Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 09:00:05 PM »
There are a lot of people here who keep saying it's a time travel book. I don't know why.

Alternate universe, Evil Harry brings Harries over to take the fall for him
 (I've always thought he leaves their bodies behind). The difference is caused by a choice "near the end of Grave Peril." The Red Court won the war.

Offline LaraBeck

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Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 09:30:38 PM »
There are a lot of people here who keep saying it's a time travel book. I don't know why.

Alternate universe, Evil Harry brings Harries over to take the fall for him
 (I've always thought he leaves their bodies behind). The difference is caused by a choice "near the end of Grave Peril." The Red Court won the war.

Yeah, I'm not sure why exactly but Mirror Mirror always gets confused with the Time Travel book, which now we know is going to be, most likely, book 22.

Yeah, but... That's why there has been problems with the concept from the start!  How do you define true love?  Harry may feel self loathing at the moment, he is grieving, he feels guilt about all the people that died under his banner that allowed him to fight.  He feels guilty because he wasn't able to keep Murphy physically out of the fight, though it was Mab's banner that made it possible, and ultimately Murphy's choice.. Having said that, what does that have to do with true love? Harry still believes he truly loved Murphy, and whether he thinks he deserves it or not, how does that change Murphy's supposed true love for him?  I say it doesn't, true love isn't a logical emotion, often it defies logic!

So no, I don't think Harry's current feelings of guilt and self-loathing over what has recently happened to him and his actions have anything to do with him not being protected.

I would agree up until this point.

I do belive what Harry and Murphy had was True Love™, I mean, to me if what Susan and Harry had was by canon standards was, Harry and Murphy better had it too, it was, IMO, a much more believable love story.

The way I see, there are two answers for why we're seeing the seed of doubt in Twelve Months:
1. There's something nefarious going on, something that Mab is doing. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised at this point. Harry's feeling of self-loathing are not enough.
2. Jim messed up. He wants to shoehorn in the relationship with Lara and he realized he made a mistake by announcing that Harry and Murphy had True Love™ in Peace Talks (he could have just not put it there and it would have been one of those things that make Harry and Murphy's story more tragic. I honestly don't think he cared that much about what "shippers" had to say about that or we wouldn't be here in the first place).

Personally, I want to believe is the first one, I know it's probably the second one, which makes me lose a lot of respect for him. This is not a minor detail in the series, IMO.

Because we now know that Harry and Lash 'conceived' Bonea in a moment of love and connection that gave rise to new life. Harry has love for Susan, but the being he went home and wept for that night was Lash. And she let herself be destroyed for the love of him, saving him from Lasciel's damnation. That interaction was what shielded Harry from the Hunger that night.

It's not possible. 1. Jim has stated that there is both a physical component and a spiritual component to the True Love™ protection settling in place, and it is born out of mutual love.

2. Harry was never in love with Las or "loved" her as a woman/partner. They were not in a romantic relationship. As far as what's on the page, he cared for her, they were friends.
I've seen some takes that Bonea was created by Harry having a sort of secret relationship with Lash in his head but his own AlternaHarry (ID Harry) tells him in Skin Game that he's been a fool for not taking her up on her "offers" of sexual intimacy. Bonea was born of an act of love, yes, sacrifice, Lash sacrifice out of love for Harry, whether romantic or not, but it was pretty much unilateral. They didn't act together.

And WoJ has stated that the "True Love" protection can only arise between two equals, not from an unequal relation (such as parent/child, etc); any form of dependence prevents it.

This. It is a matter of two consenting adults giving to one another in equal measure.

Offline Mira

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Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 10:31:07 PM »
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I do belive what Harry and Murphy had was True Love™, I mean, to me if what Susan and Harry had was by canon standards was, Harry and Murphy better had it too, it was, IMO, a much more believable love story.

  I think there were problems with both relationships.  I am not saying what Harry felt for Susan wasn't true love, he was protected after all.  However I have problems with whether or not she felt it for him. Murphy's original reason for not wanting to have a relationship with Harry is very valid, and that hadn't changed by the time she died.  I just think that though she enjoyed the sexual relationship and the excitement of going into battle with Harry, I think in the back of her mind it was lurking.  "When I am an elderly 80, Harry will be still a young wizard in his prime." 

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Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 10:47:56 PM »
However I have problems with whether or not she felt it for him. Murphy's original reason for not wanting to have a relationship with Harry is very valid, and that hadn't changed by the time she died.
The problems were never whether or not she loved Harry.

"When I am an elderly 80, Harry will be still a young wizard in his prime."
That's the one thing from her Proven Guilty speech I never agreed with.

And we know they had True Love because Harry burned Lara in Peace Talks.

Offline peterwiggin94

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Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #50 on: Today at 02:49:10 PM »
This is just speculation on my part but I suspect that Murphy becoming a Valkyrie stopped the protection. We know that people swapped bits of souls during physical contact which sometimes leads to protection from WCV. Odin is giving Murphy unusual afterlife which presumably includes her soul somehow. Mab and Odin are allied and, after Odin does something to Murphy, Harry is now free to marry Lara. I think Odin helped Mab change Murphy in a way that frees Harry up.

Offline Mira

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Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #51 on: Today at 03:28:00 PM »

  Murphy isn't becoming a Valkyrie, she is becoming a Einherjar, not the same thing!
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This is just speculation on my part but I suspect that Murphy becoming a Valkyrie stopped the protection. We know that people swapped bits of souls during physical contact which sometimes leads to protection from WCV. Odin is giving Murphy unusual afterlife which presumably includes her soul somehow. Mab and Odin are allied and, after Odin does something to Murphy, Harry is now free to marry Lara. I think Odin helped Mab change Murphy in a way that frees Harry up.

Actually the Valkyrie do apparently have souls, because in 12 Months Harry actually begins to soul gaze Bear.  I have my own theory as to why Mab wants Harry to marry Lara, it goes back to why Margaret married Lord Raith, or at least mated with him. However I need to carefully reread the book before I present it.

Something else Mab said that caught my eye that in my opinion puts into question whether or not Murphy loved Harry in a way that would give him true love's protection. 
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"She was a woman who knew her mind.  That had nothing to do with you, wizard."

So yes, Murphy may have loved Harry, but that doesn't mean she didn't have her own reservations about it.
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That's the one thing from her Proven Guilty speech I never agreed with.

And we know they had True Love because Harry burned Lara in Peace Talks.

It shouldn't have stopped with Murphy's death then. 
« Last Edit: Today at 03:29:34 PM by Mira »

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Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #52 on: Today at 05:59:28 PM »
  Murphy isn't becoming a Valkyrie, she is becoming a Einherjar, not the same thing!
Lately I've wondered if she might become a Valkyrie. Every Einherjar we've seen has been a man. In the Murphy short story, Gard hinted that Murphy fit the Valkyrie mold. I don't think she'll be a Valkyrie, but I do think it's possible.

It shouldn't have stopped with Murphy's death then. 
Well, it did stop with Murphy's death and Dresden's emotional state. Jim hinted Susan's death and/or Harry's knowledge of her betrayal of him, or even him not  loving her anymore could have ended the protection. Check out this video a little after 38 minutes in. https://youtu.be/Xg5GxQb_rXo?si=ns4nv7dcaevqduvm

There's not much in the series before this point about how true love protection works except time weakens it and sex with another breaks it.