True Love's Protection

[Mira]

Mirror Mirror isn't a time travel book and our Harry doesn't choose to go. The alternate Harry pulls him. Book 22 is going to be the time travel book so Jim can go back and fix all the continuity errors.
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Thanks, I only know what I have read here and time travel was one of the possibilities, suggested for Mirror.   

And WoJ has stated that the "True Love" protection can only arise between two equals, not from an unequal relation (such as parent/child, etc); any form of dependence prevents it.  I don't think Lasciel's Shadow -- nor "Lash" -- can in any way be a "equal" to Harry, as she was wholly-dependent on Harry for her very existence.

Define "equals" in a relationship.  I wouldn't call Harry and Susan equals nor Harry and Murphy, and honestly were Justine and Thomas really equals?   If dependence prevents the protection, then there was a problem in all three of the above cases.  You could say that Murphy/Harry may have been the most equal, but in a lot of ways not.

[Bad Alias]

There are a lot of people here who keep saying it's a time travel book. I don't know why.

Alternate universe, Evil Harry brings Harries over to take the fall for him
 (I've always thought he leaves their bodies behind). The difference is caused by a choice "near the end of Grave Peril." The Red Court won the war.

[LaraBeck]

There are a lot of people here who keep saying it's a time travel book. I don't know why.

Alternate universe, Evil Harry brings Harries over to take the fall for him
 (I've always thought he leaves their bodies behind). The difference is caused by a choice "near the end of Grave Peril." The Red Court won the war.

Yeah, I'm not sure why exactly but Mirror Mirror always gets confused with the Time Travel book, which now we know is going to be, most likely, book 22.

Yeah, but... That's why there has been problems with the concept from the start!  How do you define true love?  Harry may feel self loathing at the moment, he is grieving, he feels guilt about all the people that died under his banner that allowed him to fight.  He feels guilty because he wasn't able to keep Murphy physically out of the fight, though it was Mab's banner that made it possible, and ultimately Murphy's choice.. Having said that, what does that have to do with true love? Harry still believes he truly loved Murphy, and whether he thinks he deserves it or not, how does that change Murphy's supposed true love for him?  I say it doesn't, true love isn't a logical emotion, often it defies logic!

So no, I don't think Harry's current feelings of guilt and self-loathing over what has recently happened to him and his actions have anything to do with him not being protected.

I would agree up until this point.

I do belive what Harry and Murphy had was True Love™, I mean, to me if what Susan and Harry had was by canon standards was, Harry and Murphy better had it too, it was, IMO, a much more believable love story.

The way I see, there are two answers for why we're seeing the seed of doubt in Twelve Months:
1. There's something nefarious going on, something that Mab is doing. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised at this point. Harry's feeling of self-loathing are not enough.
2. Jim messed up. He wants to shoehorn in the relationship with Lara and he realized he made a mistake by announcing that Harry and Murphy had True Love™ in Peace Talks (he could have just not put it there and it would have been one of those things that make Harry and Murphy's story more tragic. I honestly don't think he cared that much about what "shippers" had to say about that or we wouldn't be here in the first place).

Personally, I want to believe is the first one, I know it's probably the second one, which makes me lose a lot of respect for him. This is not a minor detail in the series, IMO.

Because we now know that Harry and Lash 'conceived' Bonea in a moment of love and connection that gave rise to new life. Harry has love for Susan, but the being he went home and wept for that night was Lash. And she let herself be destroyed for the love of him, saving him from Lasciel's damnation. That interaction was what shielded Harry from the Hunger that night.

It's not possible. 1. Jim has stated that there is both a physical component and a spiritual component to the True Love™ protection settling in place, and it is born out of mutual love.

2. Harry was never in love with Las or "loved" her as a woman/partner. They were not in a romantic relationship. As far as what's on the page, he cared for her, they were friends.
I've seen some takes that Bonea was created by Harry having a sort of secret relationship with Lash in his head but his own AlternaHarry (ID Harry) tells him in Skin Game that he's been a fool for not taking her up on her "offers" of sexual intimacy. Bonea was born of an act of love, yes, sacrifice, Lash sacrifice out of love for Harry, whether romantic or not, but it was pretty much unilateral. They didn't act together.

And WoJ has stated that the "True Love" protection can only arise between two equals, not from an unequal relation (such as parent/child, etc); any form of dependence prevents it.

This. It is a matter of two consenting adults giving to one another in equal measure.

[Mira]

I do belive what Harry and Murphy had was True Love™, I mean, to me if what Susan and Harry had was by canon standards was, Harry and Murphy better had it too, it was, IMO, a much more believable love story.

  I think there were problems with both relationships.  I am not saying what Harry felt for Susan wasn't true love, he was protected after all.  However I have problems with whether or not she felt it for him. Murphy's original reason for not wanting to have a relationship with Harry is very valid, and that hadn't changed by the time she died.  I just think that though she enjoyed the sexual relationship and the excitement of going into battle with Harry, I think in the back of her mind it was lurking.  "When I am an elderly 80, Harry will be still a young wizard in his prime." 

[Bad Alias]

However I have problems with whether or not she felt it for him. Murphy's original reason for not wanting to have a relationship with Harry is very valid, and that hadn't changed by the time she died.

The problems were never whether or not she loved Harry.

"When I am an elderly 80, Harry will be still a young wizard in his prime."

That's the one thing from her Proven Guilty speech I never agreed with.

And we know they had True Love because Harry burned Lara in Peace Talks.

[peterwiggin94]

This is just speculation on my part but I suspect that Murphy becoming a Valkyrie stopped the protection. We know that people swapped bits of souls during physical contact which sometimes leads to protection from WCV. Odin is giving Murphy unusual afterlife which presumably includes her soul somehow. Mab and Odin are allied and, after Odin does something to Murphy, Harry is now free to marry Lara. I think Odin helped Mab change Murphy in a way that frees Harry up.

[Mira]

  Murphy isn't becoming a Valkyrie, she is becoming a Einherjar, not the same thing!

This is just speculation on my part but I suspect that Murphy becoming a Valkyrie stopped the protection. We know that people swapped bits of souls during physical contact which sometimes leads to protection from WCV. Odin is giving Murphy unusual afterlife which presumably includes her soul somehow. Mab and Odin are allied and, after Odin does something to Murphy, Harry is now free to marry Lara. I think Odin helped Mab change Murphy in a way that frees Harry up.

Actually the Valkyrie do apparently have souls, because in 12 Months Harry actually begins to soul gaze Bear.  I have my own theory as to why Mab wants Harry to marry Lara, it goes back to why Margaret married Lord Raith, or at least mated with him. However I need to carefully reread the book before I present it.

Something else Mab said that caught my eye that in my opinion puts into question whether or not Murphy loved Harry in a way that would give him true love's protection. 

"She was a woman who knew her mind.  That had nothing to do with you, wizard."

So yes, Murphy may have loved Harry, but that doesn't mean she didn't have her own reservations about it.

That's the one thing from her Proven Guilty speech I never agreed with.

And we know they had True Love because Harry burned Lara in Peace Talks.

It shouldn't have stopped with Murphy's death then. 

[Bad Alias]

  Murphy isn't becoming a Valkyrie, she is becoming a Einherjar, not the same thing!

Lately I've wondered if she might become a Valkyrie. Every Einherjar we've seen has been a man. In the Murphy short story, Gard hinted that Murphy fit the Valkyrie mold. I don't think she'll be a Valkyrie, but I do think it's possible.

It shouldn't have stopped with Murphy's death then. 

Well, it did stop with Murphy's death and Dresden's emotional state. Jim hinted Susan's death and/or Harry's knowledge of her betrayal of him, or even him not  loving her anymore could have ended the protection. Check out this video a little after 38 minutes in. https://youtu.be/Xg5GxQb_rXo?si=ns4nv7dcaevqduvm

There's not much in the series before this point about how true love protection works except time weakens it and sex with another breaks it.

[LaraBeck]

In any case, if suddenly self-doubt/self-loathing (Harry) or a measure of resentment toward the other partner (Susan), can kill the True Love protection, it means that Jim is watering down the concept of True Love™ right? Suddenly, he has other ideas in mind (Lara) and the concept has stopped being useful so we're eroding its meaning now. Because it went from this super rare, super important experience shared between two people, that was so spirtual and physically important that it left a literal mark on the participants, and now it can be destroyed with pretty much anything. It's a disappointment, to me, and makes me trust Jim a lot less.

I hope there's some hidden reason here that's yet to be revealed, tbh.

[Bad Alias]

it means that Jim is watering down the concept of True Love™ right? Suddenly, he has other ideas in mind (Lara) and the concept has stopped being useful so we're eroding its meaning now. Because it went from this super rare, super important experience shared between two people, that was so spirtual and physically important that it left a literal mark on the participants, and now it can be destroyed with pretty much anything.

But it isn't one thing. It's at least two, in this case. Murphy's death and Harry's self loathing. Mab's statement suggests that Susan's death might even play a part in it.

We already knew time played a part in it. We knew it was more than just sex with someone else that can affect it.

[Dina]

Time does not affect it, doesn't it? That is why Harry was protected several years after Maggie was conceived.

[Bad Alias]

Time does not affect it, doesn't it? That is why Harry was protected several years after Maggie was conceived.

Harry was more affected in Blood Rites than Arturo. As you can see from the quotes below, Arturo is barely affected and Harry is strongly affected. But even though Harry is affected, he's beyond control or feeding.

And regarding Harry's emotional state, you will notice that Thomas uses the present tense when speaking of their love. This supports the idea that how former lovers currently feel about each other matters.

The final part about a "the strongest touch of another life" could be taken to mean Susan being alive is important.

“Arturo,” she said warmly. She took his hands, and they did more social cheek kissing. I shook my head while they did, and managed to shove my libido out of the driver’s seat of my brain. Captain of my own soul (even if my pants were considering mutiny), I began focusing my thoughts, building up a barrier to shield them. “You are an angel,” Arturo said to her. His voice was steady and kind and not at all that of a man having most of his blood channeled south of his belly button. How the hell could he not have reacted to her presence? “An angel to come here so quickly. To help me.”

“The last time you were with anyone, it was with Susan. You love each other. Her touch, her love is still upon you, and still protecting you.”
“If that’s true, then why I am still adjusting my pants every time Lara walks by?”
Thomas shrugged. “You’re human. She’s lovely and you haven’t gotten any in a while. But trust me, Harry. None of the White Court could wholly control or feed from you now.”
I frowned. “But it was a year ago.”
Thomas shrugged. “If there hasn’t been anyone else, then it’s still the strongest touch of another life on your own.”

Emphasis added.

This all fits with what we see in 12 Months. I don't think Harry's protection is gone because Murphy is dead or because of how much he blames himself for her (and maybe Susan's) death(s). I think it is because of everything working together.

Before 12 Months, I wouldn't have thought anything but sex would break the protection, but it doesn't contradict anything I can think of that we have seen in the other books.

[Mira]

There's not much in the series before this point about how true love protection works except time weakens it and sex with another breaks it.

Yes, well I have always had a problem with the sex thing.  Because there is no distinction in the act itself it's been debated a lot in the past on this forum that supposedly if one is raped, that breaks true love protection.  Rape is an act of assault, violence, has nothing to do with pleasure, love, or unfaithfulness, so how can it break true love? 

In any case, if suddenly self-doubt/self-loathing (Harry) or a measure of resentment toward the other partner (Susan), can kill the True Love protection, it means that Jim is watering down the concept of True Love™ right? Suddenly, he has other ideas in mind (Lara) and the concept has stopped being useful so we're eroding its meaning now. Because it went from this super rare, super important experience shared between two people, that was so spirtual and physically important that it left a literal mark on the participants, and now it can be destroyed with pretty much anything. It's a disappointment, to me, and makes me trust Jim a lot less.

I totally agree, it went from something precious and beautiful to something kind of cheap.  As Mary Poppins told Jane and Michael in the movie of the same name..  She was talking about promises, but in this case this is what true love has become, "like pie crust, easily made and easily broken..."  That ain't what true love should be!

[Dina]

Ah yes,Bad Alias, time of being together, yes that seems to count.

Something I agree with LaraBeck and it has bothered me for a while is that when Jim introduced the idea of True Love is was supposedly be very rare, but Harry had it twice, Thomas have it, Arturo have it, I think Inari had it (I don't remember right now if it was True Love or just love). I bet Michael and Charity and Will and Georgia will be True Lovers too!

[Bad Alias]

Dina, yes, true love, not just love. The main characters are people with very rare character traits to begin with, so that can explain it. But it has come up a lot in the series. It does make it feel less rare.

Mira, I remember that being debated here a time or two. I don't think there's anything but theories on either side of that debate.