is Nicodemus Archleone *the* Nicodemus (from the Bible)?

[g33k]

John 3:3 --

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

(I mean... I don't think we know, for sure; afaik there's neither WoJ nor book-reference.  So I guess I mean "how likely do you think it is" rather than just "is" the DF one the same as the Biblical one)

[KurtinStGeorge]

I would guess no.  My feeling is the Denarian took that name as a perversion or inversion of Nicodemus of the New Testament.  In the Book of John, Nicodemus is a Pharisee who meets Jesus and asks him how to enter the Kingdom of God.  He struggles with the ideas he is taught.  In the end, he helps prepare Jesus body for burial.  That's a short and very truncated version of events in the Book of John. 

I think Nicodemus Archleone's backstory may be; spiritually at least, the opposite or near opposite of the biblical Nicodemus.  He meets with a Fallen Angel, then struggles with what he learns, but in the end follows the path Anduriel set for him.  Yes, Nicodemus Archleone will claim in Skin Game that he leads the Fallen, but that was just his own arrogance speaking.

I may have the details wrong.  That's a near certainty, but I might have the essence right.

Then again, maybe Nicodemus was just a very popular name back then.

[Mira]

I would guess no.  My feeling is the Denarian took that name as a perversion or inversion of Nicodemus of the New Testament.  In the Book of John, Nicodemus is a Pharisee who meets Jesus and asks him how to enter the Kingdom of God.  He struggles with the ideas he is taught.  In the end, he helps prepare Jesus body for burial.  That's a short and very truncated version of events in the Book of John. 

I think Nicodemus Archleone's backstory may be; spiritually at least, the opposite or near opposite of the biblical Nicodemus.  He meets with a Fallen Angel, then struggles with what he learns, but in the end follows the path Anduriel set for him.  Yes, Nicodemus Archleone will claim in Skin Game that he leads the Fallen, but that was just his own arrogance speaking.

I may have the details wrong.  That's a near certainty, but I might have the essence right.

Then again, maybe Nicodemus was just a very popular name back then.

My knowledge of the New Testament is limited, but I also remember that Nicodemus was the man who helped to take down Jesus from the Cross, I also think it was his tomb that they placed the body of Jesus in, but I could be wrong about that part. 

As for the  Pharisee who I believe was also rich who asked Jesus how to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?  Was answered I think with the famous "eye of a needle" quote.  Now it is possible that that was Nic, who got very upset about that and somewhere along the line became buds with Judas.  Nic's noose has never been explained, we all know about the most famous noose in history, the one that hung Judas.  So we keep on coming back to this point in history, also Judas was paid with thirty pieces of silver, there are thirty Denarians each trapped in presumedly one of those coins.

[Tinfoil hat]

My knowledge of the New Testament is limited, but I also remember that Nicodemus was the man who helped to take down Jesus from the Cross, I also think it was his tomb that they placed the body of Jesus in, but I could be wrong about that part. 

As for the  Pharisee who I believe was also rich who asked Jesus how to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?  Was answered I think with the famous "eye of a needle" quote.  Now it is possible that that was Nic, who got very upset about that and somewhere along the line became buds with Judas.  Nic's noose has never been explained, we all know about the most famous noose in history, the one that hung Judas.  So we keep on coming back to this point in history, also Judas was paid with thirty pieces of silver, there are thirty Denarians each trapped in presumedly one of those coins.

.
Biblical Nic was a pharise, ( teacher of the law) the intellectual class of the day. Jesus was uneducated but seemed to know more that the pharisees themselves. Biblical Nic became a believer. Nic on the other hand may have been from the time period but i doubt he was a big deal at the time

[Mira]

Biblical Nic was a pharise, ( teacher of the law) the intellectual class of the day. Jesus was uneducated but seemed to know more that the pharisees themselves. Biblical Nic became a believer. Nic on the other hand may have been from the time period but i doubt he was a big deal at the time

If they were the same Nic, as Kurtin suggested Nicodemus could have been a very common name.  It doesn't matter if he was important at the time or not, but somehow he got tied both to the noose and one of the silver coins with one of the Fallen entrapped inside.  Jim is either leading us down a rabbit hole of implied meaning, or Nic somehow has direct or indirect ties to Judas.

[Avernite]

If they were the same Nic, as Kurtin suggested Nicodemus could have been a very common name.  It doesn't matter if he was important at the time or not, but somehow he got tied both to the noose and one of the silver coins with one of the Fallen entrapped inside.  Jim is either leading us down a rabbit hole of implied meaning, or Nic somehow has direct or indirect ties to Judas.

There is indeed one historical Nicodemus outside the bible, apparently (though some scholars suggest they are the same, I think that's reaching... the first was accomplished around the year 30, the second Nicodemus was active around the year 70). And wikipedia mentions it's not sure if the name has Hebrew or Greek origins. So trying to answer which Nicodemus, and why, seems to risk a rabbit hole...

[Mira]

There is indeed one historical Nicodemus outside the bible, apparently (though some scholars suggest they are the same, I think that's reaching... the first was accomplished around the year 30, the second Nicodemus was active around the year 70). And wikipedia mentions it's not sure if the name has Hebrew or Greek origins. So trying to answer which Nicodemus, and why, seems to risk a rabbit hole...

Not unusal, and maybe that's the point?  I seem to remember in Skin Game that it was mentioned that Nic had Greek origins, and further hinted or would seem to suggest outside of the New Testament.  Yet at the same time the connections to Judas seem obvious. However since Greeks did travel in the time of Jesus, both can be true at once.  As in Nic isn't the Nic of the Bible, however he is Greek, and happened to somehow both hook up with Judas and pick up one of the silver coins.  After all not much if anything is said about Judas after he hanged himself.  I could be wrong there, I am not all that up on the Bible.  However there are other Books of the New Testament that have been edited out in the last couple of thousand years, something may have been said in one of those.

[g33k]

... I seem to remember in Skin Game that it was mentioned that Nic had Greek origins ...

I don't recall this, but could easily have missed it...  Can you find the citation, perchance?

... However since Greeks did travel in the time of Jesus, both can be true at once ...

The "Hellenistic" period of Greek dominance throughout the eastern-Med / middle-East was just coming to a close, but people with "Greek origins" were ubiquitous across the entire region.
 

[Mira]

I don't recall this, but could easily have missed it...  Can you find the citation, perchance?

Okay, I did some digging, and I didn't find anything definitive, I am thinking now that it was just an impression I got.  It says in
Skin Game that Nic has taken great pains over the centuries to hide his origins.  I looked up his last name is either Hebrew or Greek in origin, it sounds Greek to me, maybe that's where I got the impression?  As to whether he is the Nicodemus from the Bible the reference I found on the Dresden Files said that may have been a coincidence that that name was the same.  I tend to agree with that, as far as that Nicodemus i.e. the one who took Jesus down from the Cross and put him in his own tomb being the evil Nic we know today from the books.  The site did mention that noose and the connection to Judas, and in Skin Game Harry is quite clear as to the silver coins that imprison the Fallen are the 37 coins of silver that Judas was paid off with for betraying Jesus. 

The "Hellenistic" period of Greek dominance throughout the eastern-Med / middle-East was just coming to a close, but people with "Greek origins" were ubiquitous across the entire region.
 

That is true.

[g33k]

... It says in
Skin Game that Nic has taken great pains over the centuries to hide his origins.  I looked up his last name is either Hebrew or Greek in origin, it sounds Greek to me, maybe that's where I got the impression ...

It has suddenly occurred to me:  very likely "Nicodemus Archleone" is a fake name: just misdirection, and entirely unrelated to his birth name.

But after a few millenia... odds are, there's only a few entities who know this!

... the 37 coins of silver that Judas was paid ...

30, fwiw.
Many of them are un-named onscreen.  Quite a few haven't even had any "onscreen" time.

[Mira]

But after a few millenia... odds are, there's only a few entities who know this!

That only makes sense.. Here is a tin hat theory that popped into my head during this discussion. Actually it fits with what you just said.  What if Nic is actually Judas?  He made a deal and accepted a coin/Andriel along with the 36 other inhabited coins when he betrayed Jesus.  Then with Andriel's help he faked his death by hanging, that's why the noose is so important, and this is how the coins got into circulation.

Many of them are un-named onscreen.  Quite a few haven't even had any "onscreen" time.

True, but that's partly because not all of the coins are in circulation at one time.  Again my memory, but I think Father Forthill said that or it may have been Michael.  When they can get them, the Church tries to keep them locked away.  However over time someone gets corrupted and they manage to get into circulation again.

[g33k]

... What if Nic is actually Judas?  He made a deal and accepted a coin ... Then with Andriel's help he faked his death by hanging, that's why the noose is so important, and this is how the coins got into circulation...

That...
Uh...
That actually makes a Hell (in both the "H" and "h" senses of hell) of a lot of sense.
The Bible actually says it:  Judas did make a deal, did accept the coins.
He made the unholiest deal of all, betraying God to His death.

... along with the 36 other inhabited coins when he betrayed Jesus ...

29 other coins.
Dunno where you got 37 from?  Pretty sure you're mistaken.
(minor point; but still)

... When they can get them, the Church tries to keep them locked away.  However over time someone gets corrupted and they manage to get into circulation again.

The whole "someone gets corrupted" is I think a common mechanism for coins to get into circulation.

But also:  Lash was very clear that she could teach Harry in moments how to summon the coin.  I bet that would have been equally true if he had already turned it over to the Church.

I have a WAG that (at least some) Fallen can imprint a Shadow onto a mortal easily, and do so often, usually having half a dozen (or more) Shadows operating at any given moment.  These Shadows would mainly serve as "emergency backup" -- any of them can summon the coin out of the Church's clutches.  In the meantime, the Shadow earns trust and proves their value by helping the Shadowed host achieve their goals:  lots of wealth... lots of hot sexual companions... power & influence... anything they want.

In the final analysis, I think the Denarii are supposed to be in circulation.  They aren't allowed to languish in Church vaults or other hidden places.

[Mira]

29 other coins.
Dunno where you got 37 from?  Pretty sure you're mistaken.
(minor point; but still)

Merely a mistake, got my numbers wrong, lack of sleep and a lot on my mind when I wrote that, posting here can be a wonderful distraction. 

I have a WAG that (at least some) Fallen can imprint a Shadow onto a mortal easily, and do so often, usually having half a dozen (or more) Shadows operating at any given moment.  These Shadows would mainly serve as "emergency backup" -- any of them can summon the coin out of the Church's clutches.  In the meantime, the Shadow earns trust and proves their value by helping the Shadowed host achieve their goals:  lots of wealth... lots of hot sexual companions... power & influence... anything they want.

Which is why such a big deal was made about Harry being able to shake off the influence of a Shadow of one of the Fallen.  This is why he was rewarded with Soul Fire by Uriel.  Remember even normally trusting Micheal had a hard time believing that Harry had been able to resist Lasciel's Shadow, it just never happens.  Apparently it is easier to reject a Coin than to reject the Shadow of one of the Fallen once they are in your head.  Remember in Small Favor how sure Nic was that he had control of Harry because of Lasciel's Shadow, and how shocked he was when Harry told him that Lasciel's Shadow didn't live in his head anymore?