Thomas

[EBRIEN]

I think it's been awhile, but I vaguely remember a discussion about what happens to Thomas. Can't remember exactly, but there's a moment in Harry's discussing the swords in Changes (again--rereading) and I've concluded that Amoracchius will banish his demon and leave him fully human. And then, he'll take up the sword. Or by taking up the sword of Love, he'll be able to keep his demon at bay.

I don't know---some combo of that. I'll go back and find what triggered it for me, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. Maybe Butters slices away the evil and leaves him fully human...

I don't know--just something. lol

Brien

[Mira]

I think both theories have been posted here over the years.. It will be interesting to see what happens now.  Actually Alfred might be able to "jail" the Hunger Demon leaving just Thomas minus the parasite.

[LordDresden2]

I think both theories have been posted here over the years.. It will be interesting to see what happens now.  Actually Alfred might be able to "jail" the Hunger Demon leaving just Thomas minus the parasite.

I would be very surprised if Alfred can do that.

Someone once asked JB if Mab could remove Thomas' demon.  IIRC, JB said something like, yes, she could.  She could tear it right out of him.  The problem would be that there wouldn't be much left of Thomas when she got done.

The problem seems to be that after that first lethal feeding, the hunger demon and the human soul are more or less grafted together, sort of like a tree graft.  There's no sharp dividing line where one stops and the other begins, even though they are not the same entity either.  (A grafted tree is physically one organism, but genetically two or more, too.)

Harry sort of saw this in his soulgaze with Thomas back in the day, in the Gaze, he saw human Thomas, the person he would have been if the parasite had been destroyed in time: not quite so handsome, apparently a bit nearsighted, and struggling with but locked to the demonic entity.

It's that spiritual 'grafting' that makes separating Thomas and the demon (or Lara, or any of them) so hard.  If you tear out the demon, you tear out some of the human with it, too.  Such a separation would thus need both immense power, and surgical precision, if it's doable at all.

[peterwiggin94]

We do know that there's an angel in each of the blades and we know that Demonreach is willing to work with Mab. There's a chance that the angel in the blade would work with Demonreach to remove Thomas's Hunger Demon with Harry working as liaison. Thomas may not want the Hunger Demon removed though. He's explicitly given a chance to "contemplate" everything he's done including all the hurts he's given. He may come to accept his Hunger Demon or may love the chance to remove it.

[Mira]

Someone once asked JB if Mab could remove Thomas' demon.  IIRC, JB said something like, yes, she could.  She could tear it right out of him.  The problem would be that there wouldn't be much left of Thomas when she got done.

I just came across that WOJ a couple of days ago when I was trying to find out something else. The question then becomes what did Jim mean by that?  Did he mean physically tear it out and Thomas would be ripped to shreds?  Or did Jim mean once his Hunger was gone, the vampire aspect and all it's perks would be gone and we'd be left with a vanilla Thomas.  Going by his soul gaze with Harry and Harry's vision of Thomas struggling with the Demon, remember what that Thomas looked like?  He was this slight weak looking man with glasses, nope not much of Thomas left, at least the Thomas we've always known.

[Talby16]

To answer the question of if Thomas can be separated from the Hunger Demon we have to understand what the Demon is. To my knowledge the author has never full stated what it is or how it develops (other than it lies dormant until the first sexual encounter). Is it some form of spirit? Is it part of the mind? Is it some part of Thomas' actual physical form? I think its nature would determine if/how it can be removed and how much of Thomas is left over when it is gone.

I think it's been awhile, but I vaguely remember a discussion about what happens to Thomas. Can't remember exactly, but there's a moment in Harry's discussing the swords in Changes (again--rereading) and I've concluded that Amoracchius will banish his demon and leave him fully human. And then, he'll take up the sword. Or by taking up the sword of Love, he'll be able to keep his demon at bay.

I don't know---some combo of that. I'll go back and find what triggered it for me, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. Maybe Butters slices away the evil and leaves him fully human...

I do not think the Sword of Faith would work. Its power on mortals is diminished. In Peace Talks they discuss the sword and how it would only work on true evil and Michael/Harry state that you would have to be absolute to qualify as evil and thus able to be impacted by the sword.

[Mira]

I do not think the Sword of Faith would work. Its power on mortals is diminished. In Peace Talks they discuss the sword and how it would only work on true evil and Michael/Harry state that you would have to be absolute to qualify as evil and thus able to be impacted by the sword.

Which is very weird since Susan in Death Masks was unable to touch the Sword of Faith, yet in Changes she could wield the Sword of Love.  Yeah, I understand it was out of love to save her daughter, but the other time she was helping Harry escape Nic and he merely asked her to hold it for him while he tried to climb a ladder out if I remember correctly and he was too weak to carry Sword and climb. Evil is evil, so in the first case her vamp half qualified as evil, but in the second case it didn't or was overlooked?

[Tinfoil hat]

Which is very weird since Susan in Death Masks was unable to touch the Sword of Faith, yet in Changes she could wield the Sword of Love.  Yeah, I understand it was out of love to save her daughter, but the other time she was helping Harry escape Nic and he merely asked her to hold it for him while he tried to climb a ladder out if I remember correctly and he was too weak to carry Sword and climb. Evil is evil, so in the first case her vamp half qualified as evil, but in the second case it didn't or was overlooked?

In the second case harry was now the Keeper of the swords Chosen by Uriel to keep them, and use   them if he saw fit. Susan and Murphy were one time exceptions. Susan's love was apparently enough for the angel to overlook the evil inside her. If she tried to use the sword for anything but protecting her daughter and saving her it would have rejected her. On the first case harry was not the sword Keeper he was just some guy.

[Dina]

I am convinced that the fact that Butters sword can kill the evil but not normal humans was introduced so we can get rid of the vampire in Thomas. But of course, I may be wrong.

[Talby16]

Which is very weird since Susan in Death Masks was unable to touch the Sword of Faith, yet in Changes she could wield the Sword of Love.  Yeah, I understand it was out of love to save her daughter, but the other time she was helping Harry escape Nic and he merely asked her to hold it for him while he tried to climb a ladder out if I remember correctly and he was too weak to carry Sword and climb. Evil is evil, so in the first case her vamp half qualified as evil, but in the second case it didn't or was overlooked?

In the second case harry was now the Keeper of the swords Chosen by Uriel to keep them, and use   them if he saw fit. Susan and Murphy were one time exceptions. Susan's love was apparently enough for the angel to overlook the evil inside her. If she tried to use the sword for anything but protecting her daughter and saving her it would have rejected her. On the first case harry was not the sword Keeper he was just some guy.

There is a slight difference between those occasions and what we see/learn in Peace Talks. The Sword of Faith has been transformed by its destruction and then reforming by Butters. It is more black and white now since it is now a more pure expression instead of a physical sword. 

[LordDresden2]

To answer the question of if Thomas can be separated from the Hunger Demon we have to understand what the Demon is. To my knowledge the author has never full stated what it is or how it develops (other than it lies dormant until the first sexual encounter). Is it some form of spirit? Is it part of the mind? Is it some part of Thomas' actual physical form? I think its nature would determine if/how it can be removed and how much of Thomas is left over when it is gone.
I do not think the Sword of Faith would work. Its power on mortals is diminished. In Peace Talks they discuss the sword and how it would only work on true evil and Michael/Harry state that you would have to be absolute to qualify as evil and thus able to be impacted by the sword.

More to the point, would Uriel be allowed to cure Thomas?

I have no doubt Uriel has the power to separate Thomas and his parasite.  I'm pretty sure Uriel is the most powerful entity Harry has ever encountered, with the possible exception of Ferro or both Mothers together, and I would bet against Ferro and the Mothers in that comparison.

But Uriel is bound by a whole bunch of rules about what he is and isn't allowed to do.

Also, I'm not sure if Uriel could separate the parasite and Thomas without turning Thomas into someone else.  It comes back to the question of how much of Thomas comes from the human and how much from the presence of the parasite.

[Mira]

More to the point, would Uriel be allowed to cure Thomas?

Exactly, that is the question for all eternity for archangels.

Also, I'm not sure if Uriel could separate the parasite and Thomas without turning Thomas into someone else.  It comes back to the question of how much of Thomas comes from the human and how much from the presence of the parasite.

I think the answer is both simple and complicated at the same time.  Uriel is all about free will, he might be able to blow away an entire galaxy if he wanted to.. However he cannot because he is under orders not to unless ordered to by his Boss.  Archangels don't have free will to act, that's why one of his fellows by the name of Lucifer now resides in Hell, he thought he had free will and fought for it.  So yes, I think if he wanted to, Uriel could get rid of the Hunger Demon, but he isn't free to act on his own.  It's like in Changes when he agreed with Harry that he could fix his broken back, but there are rules for doing that, and Harry didn't qualify under the set of rules. However since a fallen angel influenced Harry's free will, Uriel was able to step in.  Back to free will, as we know the Hunger Demon cannot take root until the young would be vampire chooses to have sex, feeds during that sex until death of the victim..  Lots of compulsions there and teenage hormones, but it still comes down to choices.  We know that true love will burn out the Hunger Demon, which was the hope Thomas and Lara had for their little sister Inara.  However I don't think there is any information on whether celibacy past a certain age eventually kills the demon/parasite. Celibacy is a life choice that Thomas didn't make, however in his case there might be some loop holes as far as free will goes.  Lord Raith did set his son up like he did all his children to end up having sex once puberty sets in knowing that in most cases it will be until death, from then on the Hunger Demon/parasite takes over.  We know that Lara has said that she is happy being what she is, she wouldn't chose anything else, she accepts it.  However while he did go through a time when Thomas almost starved himself when he was living with Harry, and Harry saw that struggle in the soul gaze, have we ever heard Thomas say if he had it to do over he'd choose to be a vanilla human?  Interesting that both he and Lara wanted their little sister, Inara to understand and have that choice.  Lara says she wouldn't change a thing, Thomas isn't quite so clear..

So could Uriel do away with the Hunger Demon/parasite?  Absolutely.. Can Uriel do away with the Hunger Demon/parasite under the rules governing archangels?  Probably not.. Is there a possible loop hole here?  I think so, but it is complicated..

[Tinfoil hat]

To answer the question of

To answer the question of if Thomas can be separated from the Hunger Demon we have to understand what the Demon is. To my knowledge the author has never full stated what it is or how it develops (other than it lies dormant until the first sexual encounter). Is it some form  To my knowledge the author has never full stated what it is or how it develops (other than it lies dormant until the first sexual encounter). Is it some form of spirit? Is it part of the mind? Is it some part of Thomas' actual physical form? I think its nature would determine if/how it can be removed.
Also also, the demon or parasite is part of Thomas. Im not sure you can remove it and the character that remains would still be thomas. Its part of everything he does one way or another. Does the demon have any influence on his thought proces. Or is it just constantly there in the background. Is like Lash or is it a part of Thomas's mind. Where is the line between thomas and the demln

[Talby16]

Im not sure you can remove it and the character that remains would still be thomas. Its part of everything he does one way or another. Does the demon have any influence on his thought proces. Or is it just constantly there in the background. Is like Lash or is it a part of Thomas's mind. Where is the line between thomas and the demln

If you go by the soul gaze Harry and Thomas had, there is some connection between Thomas and Harry. In the soul gaze their arms are connected with their fingers/claws digging into each others forearms. To me this suggests that there will be some loss in trying to separate them. The question is what and how much of Thomas will be removed with the parasite.

[Mira]

If you go by the soul gaze Harry and Thomas had, there is some connection between Thomas and Harry. In the soul gaze their arms are connected with their fingers/claws digging into each others forearms. To me this suggests that there will be some loss in trying to separate them. The question is what and how much of Thomas will be removed with the parasite.

  I see that soul gaze struggle between Thomas and himself as a struggle for his soul.  His vanilla human half struggling to remain human and his demon wanting to take over..  I think all of human Thomas will remain if the demon is removed, but we saw that image also in the soul gaze.  A slight human with glasses, physically more like Butters than the physical hunk he has been all of his life.  The question then becomes, can Thomas deal with being a mere ordinary vanilla human?