Thomas

[Mira]

Charity was actively denying/suppressing her powers out of shame. Thomas spent time and effort to learn how to at least do a tracking spell and has used it actively. We don't know how often. We don't know what other spells he may know. If his vampiric nature is stripped away and he is fully human, I agree that it would make sense for him to explore his magical talents more. This would allow him to still fight the good fight and not shift away from the supernatural completely. It sets up an interesting scenario of Harry having to train him and them butting heads.

It's a hard call at this point.  Yes, Thomas learned some elementary or rudimentary spells, but on the surface anyway, he didn't seem interested on learning more.  Was that because as a vampire he didn't think he needed to know more?  Did he fear his father would kill him outright if he did?  Remember Thomas was very into playing the dumb playboy type to stay alive, when we first meet him because of his father.  Or is this in fact as far as Thomas can go with his talent?  He has had his chances to learn more, he lived with Harry for a year and he was a protector of the Paranet and had contact with Elaine.  Was he also afraid of the Wardens if they figured out how talented he really was?  One problem with that if I remember correctly, Harry seems to have a "spidy sense" vibs when he is around someone with considerable magical talent, he has never mentioned it as far as Thomas goes.. But then again I could be remembering that wrong, and Harry also has been clueless at times. One more question, and it may be elementary because Thomas was very young when Margaret left him for Malcolm..  Surely she would have known that as her son, Thomas potentially had talent, maybe lots of talent.  She had to also know how dangerous a WCV wizard would or could be.  So knowing this, why did she leave him behind?  Yeah, maybe roll of the dice, no talent, little talent, potential kick ass wizard, worth the chance?  Or did she have ways of blocking that aspect of her genes when she conceived Thomas with Raith?  Or did she have another way of knowing her six year old son's magical talent would be limited at best?

[Regenbogen]

. One more question, and it may be elementary because Thomas was very young when Margaret left him for Malcolm..  Surely she would have known that as her son, Thomas potentially had talent, maybe lots of talent.  She had to also know how dangerous a WCV wizard would or could be.  So knowing this, why did she leave him behind?  Yeah, maybe roll of the dice, no talent, little talent, potential kick ass wizard, worth the chance?  Or did she have ways of blocking that aspect of her genes when she conceived Thomas with Raith?  Or did she have another way of knowing her six year old son's magical talent would be limited at best?

I have wondered a lot about what made Margaret decide to leave Thomas behind? In some thoughts she is the villain, in some the victim. Maybe she thought that a life on the run would be less safe for her child than staying at home with his abusive father but being integrated into a strong family clan with at least one loving sister (Lara).
Or was she forced to leave alone in a situation of flight or death?
Or did she make a bargain with someone/fae (Leanansidhe?) or with Lara for protection for Thomas?
Did she suppress his magical talent to make him seem like no threat to Raith's power?
How involved was she in the plan to produce a starborn child? And when her first attempt failed, she left her failure (Thomas) like garbage to try again?

There is so much we don't know. I hope that there will be more information in later books.

There seemed to be some love between her and Thomas, or she wouldn't have linked her sons' amulets to trigger her appearance during their soul gaze. But for her to do that, she must have known that there will be a future second child.
Was she prescient? Or did someone tell her? Or did she plan it all ahead?

All questions I'd like to be answered.

[Talby16]

It's a hard call at this point.  Yes, Thomas learned some elementary or rudimentary spells, but on the surface anyway, he didn't seem interested on learning more.  Was that because as a vampire he didn't think he needed to know more?  Did he fear his father would kill him outright if he did?  Remember Thomas was very into playing the dumb playboy type to stay alive, when we first meet him because of his father.  Or is this in fact as far as Thomas can go with his talent?  He has had his chances to learn more, he lived with Harry for a year and he was a protector of the Paranet and had contact with Elaine.  Was he also afraid of the Wardens if they figured out how talented he really was?  One problem with that if I remember correctly, Harry seems to have a "spidy sense" vibs when he is around someone with considerable magical talent, he has never mentioned it as far as Thomas goes.. But then again I could be remembering that wrong, and Harry also has been clueless at times. One more question, and it may be elementary because Thomas was very young when Margaret left him for Malcolm..  Surely she would have known that as her son, Thomas potentially had talent, maybe lots of talent.  She had to also know how dangerous a WCV wizard would or could be.  So knowing this, why did she leave him behind?  Yeah, maybe roll of the dice, no talent, little talent, potential kick ass wizard, worth the chance?  Or did she have ways of blocking that aspect of her genes when she conceived Thomas with Raith?  Or did she have another way of knowing her six year old son's magical talent would be limited at best?

You are absolutely correct that Thomas has had the opportunity to learn more if he wanted to. It brings up the question of where he learned his basic spells from. Did Harry teach him that? If so, why did Thomas not learn more? It very well could be out of fear as Mira suggested. Fear of the Council or fear of his father/Lara viewing him as a threat.

As far as Harry having a "spidey sense" with regards to magical talent, he can tell either through direct physical contact with someone or by deliberately reaching out with his senses to scan their aura. Harry has said that when he touches another person with magical talent it feels like an electric shock with bigger jolts corresponding to bigger talents. If I recall correctly, actively sensing someone's aura is harder to do and more invasive. It is uncomfortable for the wizard having their aura scanned and therefore not considered polite. Most wizards do not do that for that reason. In addition, wizards can shield their aura at least partly. As far as Maggie Sr goes, we know that magic is passed along the female line. Therefore, she would have had to know that Thomas would have had a chance at inheriting magic. Magical talent does not express until early teenage years and I do not think there is a way to gauge magic talent before it is expressed.

I have wondered a lot about what made Margaret decide to leave Thomas behind? In some thoughts she is the villain, in some the victim. Maybe she thought that a life on the run would be less safe for her child than staying at home with his abusive father but being integrated into a strong family clan with at least one loving sister (Lara).
Or was she forced to leave alone in a situation of flight or death?

I think somewhere there is a WOJ that Maggie had already met Malcom and was pregnant with Harry when she left Raith for good and went into hiding. If I was guessing, I think she left to protect Harry and could not safely take Thomas with her. Especially if she knew Harry would be starborn and was trying to keep Raith from getting his hands on Harry.

Or did she make a bargain with someone/fae (Leanansidhe?) or with Lara for protection for Thomas?

I do not know if she made a bargain with Lara, but the author states that she did not make a bargain with Lea covering Thomas because she figured Thomas was  a baby shark and could protect himself.

Did she suppress his magical talent to make him seem like no threat to Raith's power?

Until he was old enough to express his magical talent there was nothing for her to suppress. Unless she was able to put some type of shield over him tied to his lifeline/soul before he expressed his talent in order to hide it from prying eyes. We know she tied the death curse on Lord Raith to her kids life, so it is possible to tie a spell to someone.

How involved was she in the plan to produce a starborn child? And when her first attempt failed, she left her failure (Thomas) like garbage to try again?

Someone asked the author this specifically. He said that Thomas was not planned and was just the result of having lots of awesome vampire sex. No word on if Harry was intentionally conceived to be starborn or not. We know that Maggie Sr loved Harry's father so he could just be a result that love and cosmic coincidence or she could have been shooting for a specific time to become pregnant by Malcom.

There seemed to be some love between her and Thomas, or she wouldn't have linked her sons' amulets to trigger her appearance during their soul gaze. But for her to do that, she must have known that there will be a future second child.
Was she prescient? Or did someone tell her? Or did she plan it all ahead?

She knew she was pregnant when she set up the amulet linkage. She might have even had Harry at that point. In the amulet message to Thomas she told him to look out for his brother. Thomas had memories of his mother and already knew that he had a brother.

[Mira]

As far as Harry having a "spidey sense" with regards to magical talent, he can tell either through direct physical contact with someone or by deliberately reaching out with his senses to scan their aura. Harry has said that when he touches another person with magical talent it feels like an electric shock with bigger jolts corresponding to bigger talents. If I recall correctly, actively sensing someone's aura is harder to do and more invasive. It is uncomfortable for the wizard having their aura scanned and therefore not considered polite. Most wizards do not do that for that reason. In addition, wizards can shield their aura at least partly. As far as Maggie Sr goes, we know that magic is passed along the female line. Therefore, she would have had to know that Thomas would have had a chance at inheriting magic. Magical talent does not express until early teenage years and I do not think there is a way to gauge magic talent before it is expressed.

During their soul gaze, Harry would have been in close contact with the aura of Thomas, plus the soul gaze itself should have revealed something about it.  I say that considering what Harry saw in his gaze with Molly, her possible futures.  Magical talent was one of the things not mentioned.. Plus that was the moment that Margaret gifted Harry with insight, no insight as far as talent and Thomas was concerned.  As far no way of gauging whether or not Thomas had talent before hand, maybe not, but Margaret was also the only wizard in her death curse to have had any effect on Lord Raith at all.  Eb, the Blackstaff himself wasn't able to accomplish that, perhaps she also found a way to block any magical genes she could pass on to any offspring she could conceive with Lord Raith.  Remember she also figured out how to create a star born, so this might have been child's play for her.  Most star borns are accidents in my opinion, just a matter of being born in the right time when the stars are aligned.   However Harry was no accident, he was planned, and Margaret only planned his birth after she met Malcolm.. Malcolm's genes were very important to her so she wouldn't end up with another Drakul or Listens.  I think Margaret knew that once she left Lord Raith, it would be such a blow to his ego that she was a dead woman walking.  She may have also thought that once she was dead, while Harry maybe safe for a while at least with Malcolm, Thomas wouldn't be.  Raith may have thought that the infant Harry even if he grew up to be a wizard would be no threat to him, while a vampire son of his would be.  That's why Raith did indeed kill off all of his sons.. Thomas lasted longer than most, but he was living on borrowed time.

Then there would be the matter of how does a vanilla human raise a would be vampire son? No, Margaret knew Lara very well, and knew that Thomas would be safe in her care, so she may have thought leaving him with Lara was the best thing she could do for him.  Notice to that Thomas has never harbored any resentment or ill feelings towards his mother for leaving him.

[Regenbogen]

Quote fromTalby16:

She knew she was pregnant when she set up the amulet linkage. She might have even had Harry at that point. In the amulet message to Thomas she told him to look out for his brother. Thomas had memories of his mother and already knew that he had a brother.

Oh, you might be correct. I just looked up the timeline. I always thought that she met Malcolm after her escape. Now it makes sense: she needed to escape and leave Thomas, because she was pregnant with a non vampire child in a vampire household.

~26-27 BSF: Thomas is given a pentacle necklace on his fifth birthday. His mother escapes Lord Raith.

26 BSF: Maggie LeFay meets Malcolm Dresden.

~25 BSF: Collin Murphy saves rookie CPD officer Rawlins from an unspecified supernatural creature in a dark alley, killing it with a shotgun full of rock salt. (~30 years before Dead Beat)

26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.

26 BSF, October 31: Harry is born. Harry’s mother, now Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden, dies in childbirth. She is murdered by a ritual entropy curse, courtesy of Lord Raith.

My thoughts on Harry being planned are from IIRC two comments somewhere in the books: I can't remember who said it, but it went like "what they bred you for" (was it Nicodemus or Dracul?) and "what he was meant to be" by Martha Liberty or Listens-to-Wind in Summer Knight. This implies that Harry's existence didn't seem to be random.
@Talby16: so, Thomas wasn't planned. What a relief.

[Mira]

Oh, you might be correct. I just looked up the timeline. I always thought that she met Malcolm after her escape. Now it makes sense: she needed to escape and leave Thomas, because she was pregnant with a non vampire child in a vampire household.

That's the one thing Eb does tell Harry about Margaret in Blood Rites, that after she met and fell in love with Malcolm,she found the strength to leave Lord Raith.

My thoughts on Harry being planned are from IIRC two comments somewhere in the books: I can't remember who said it, but it went like "what they bred you for" (was it Nicodemus or Dracul?) and "what he was meant to be" by Martha Liberty or Listens-to-Wind in Summer Knight. This implies that Harry's existence didn't seem to be random.
@Talby16: so, Thomas wasn't planned. What a relief.

Lash spells it out for Harry in White Night, his conception was no accident, a lot of factors go into it.  Now not clear was this something that Margaret thought up on her own?  Doubtful since everyone but Harry seem to know what Harry is and why he was conceived, so a given that a star born would be conceived.  However who, or what planned this is a bit more of a mystery.  If the White Council planned it, it's doubtful they would choose Margaret, an outlaw basically, to be the mother of their star born.. Martha Liberty did say to Listens to Wind that they knew what Harry was meant to be, or more accurate they suspect, or believe, dangerous and not nice, i.e. Listen and Drakul..  However Margaret seemingly on her own again, if Lash is to be believed in White Night decided to do this after she fell in love with a truly good man, Malcolm.  I think the plan was always out there, i.e. the year was right, we know now star born happen every so many years, in her usual rebellious way, Margaret chose to throw a monkey wrench into everyone's plans by conceiving a star born with a truly good man.  This is what sets Harry apart from the rest of the star born, it is significant and no accident that it is repeated constantly though out the series that Harry inherited his father's good heart among other things.  So there most likely was a plan out there for the conception of a star born, but when Margaret conceived Harry with Malcolm, it backfired.  However I think a huge clue as to why ultimately the White Council elected to throw Harry out, is they know what Harry was meant to be, as Martha Liberty said, but they, with the exception of Eb never knew Malcolm, so they have no clue who Harry really is.

As to whether or not Thomas was planned, if we go by the information in Peace Talks he was born in the wrong year to be a star born unless there is a lot of wiggle room say plus or minus a decade.  I still think Margaret knew that having sex with Lord Raith, most likely unprotected sex meant she could or would become pregnant by him, which happened.  However I still think she found a way for her talent not to be passed onto any child she conceived with Lord Raith.  And yes, Thomas could still have some talent, I seem to remember either Harry saying it or it could be a WOJ that everyone, even vanilla humans are born with some magical talent..

[g33k]

Lara understands that, and loves what she is, accepts what she is.. Thomas hadn't fully until the Skinwalker got a hold of him.
Thomas changed and seemingly made a choice, interesting scene at the zoo at the end of Turncoat.  Harry appalled because Thomas told him he enjoyed what he was doing after a while.  Actually Lara was delighted with that outcome and didn't want Harry messing with Thomas on that score..

We never got to see that struggle for the heart and mind of Thomas between Lara and Harry.  Or Harry having to come to grips that his brother was now no different from other vampires now.  I was disappointed that we didn't. 

I don't think the Skinwalker did "convert" Thomas; not really.
It tortured Thomas until he gave up hope in his gentler and more-loving aspirations.

But even then, he wasn't the merciless predator it had tried to create:  he was angry & hurt that Harry still wanted that from him & for him, expected it of him.  He wouldn't have been hurting/angry if some part of him didn't still see that as better!  The Skinwalker had convinced him that he was a broken thing, unworthy of having nice emotions & nice relationships.

[g33k]

... Or his talent was never allowed to show itself and develop ...

No, the Whamps' spellcasting &c is only Paranet-caliber magic, sub-WhiteCouncil stuff.  They can use it in conjunction with their Hunger to pull off some pretty potent tricks (presumably in the realm of mind-magic).

Now -- in addition to that -- his father may have "discouraged" Thomas from exploring his magic.  It's a reasonable theory, for sure!

[Mira]

No, the Whamps' spellcasting &c is only Paranet-caliber magic, sub-WhiteCouncil stuff.  They can use it in conjunction with their Hunger to pull off some pretty potent tricks (presumably in the realm of mind-magic).

Now -- in addition to that -- his father may have "discouraged" Thomas from exploring his magic.  It's a reasonable theory, for sure!

Yes, but the point remains, during the year he lived with Harry, Thomas made no effort to learn any magic.. Nor on page anyway discuss with Harry the possibility that he may have talent.  Since whether a kid has talent or not just seems to pop up, i .e. Harry discovered at age 11 that he could out jump etc beyond what would or should be possible all the kids he came in contact with.

[Talby16]

I don't think the Skinwalker did "convert" Thomas; not really.
It tortured Thomas until he gave up hope in his gentler and more-loving aspirations.

But even then, he wasn't the merciless predator it had tried to create:  he was angry & hurt that Harry still wanted that from him & for him, expected it of him.  He wouldn't have been hurting/angry if some part of him didn't still see that as better!  The Skinwalker had convinced him that he was a broken thing, unworthy of having nice emotions & nice relationships.

Agreed. The Skinwalker just tortured him to near death and allowed him to feed himself back to health. He wasn't actively trying to talk him into something he was just training him. I liken it to taking a recovering alcoholic, trapping him without water, waiting until her was dehydrated, and giving him only alcohol to drink. The alcoholic will walk out thinking that alcohol is what has freed him from his prison and i necessary for his ongoing life.

[Mira]

Agreed. The Skinwalker just tortured him to near death and allowed him to feed himself back to health. He wasn't actively trying to talk him into something he was just training him. I liken it to taking a recovering alcoholic, trapping him without water, waiting until her was dehydrated, and giving him only alcohol to drink. The alcoholic will walk out thinking that alcohol is what has freed him from his prison and i necessary for his ongoing life.

First of all if you gave an alcoholic only alcohol to drink, he would die of thirst.  Second what the Skin Walker did to Thomas goes deeper than feeding upon those girls to survive.. Thomas confesses to Harry that he began to enjoy it. You don't just undo something like that, that's what is missing in my opinion, the struggle and Harry coming to terms or not with it.

[g33k]

... Thomas confesses to Harry that he began to enjoy it. ...

Satiating a hunger always feels good; that's a fundamental feedback loop of survival.

We mostly don't notice our breathing.  But if you hold your breath until it's uncomfortable, that first breath feels amazing.  The nice cool drink when hot & thirsty.  The meal after building an appetite.

Of course Thomas enjoyed it!

Furthermore, the Naagloshi made sure that "enjoying it" was all he could do, that Thomas-the-man was weak and desperate and in pain, unable to muster the focus & willpower needed to stave off the Hunger; unable to feel remorse... until after the fact.  Over and over:  torment, relief, remorse, torment (note that's remarkably-similar to how Mab broke Lloyd Slate).

That's Thomas' reality, as a predator.  It feels good.  And he needs to be able to handle that.

[Mira]

That's Thomas' reality, as a predator.  It feels good.  And he needs to be able to handle that.

That's the point though, remember the mirror image in the soul gaze?  Sorry my cat is helping me type.. 

She is now out chasing butterflies.  Anyway, in the soul gaze we saw the struggle between the human Thomas and the Hunger.
With the Skin Walker's help, the Hunger has won.  No, it isn't like our breathing.. 

[Dina]

I hope your cat is doing well 

I think the Hunger won but it could be reverted. But he needs the chance to try, and things are more than complicated now.

[Mira]

I hope your cat is doing well 

I think the Hunger won but it could be reverted. But he needs the chance to try, and things are more than complicated now.

 Oh Mindy Mouser is doing very well!  I have a touch screen and she likes to get between it and the key board purring madly fro attention, then because she touches the screen it goes crazy. 

Yes, things are a lot more complicated for Thomas now.. Hopefully it will be a happy ending for Justine, Thomas, and baby..If there really is one.