The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
The Soul Gaze in Blood Rites, Something Margaret Said to Harry About Justine..
Mira:
Small Favor
--- Quote ---"Not having it could have gotten me killed, too," I said. "And then you'd have wasted all that time you've put in trying to recruit me to be the next Winter Knight."
"Nonsense," Mab said. "If you died, I would simply recruit your brother. He would be well motivated to seek revenge upon your killers."
--- End quote ---
LordDresden2
--- Quote ---That's a direct statement on Mab's part. Not an implication, or a suggestion, or a hint, it's a direct declarative statement. Either she means it...or she uttered a falsehood, which as far as know she simply can't.
--- End quote ---
This is also from Small Favor Page 402
--- Quote ---Quote
"He isn't mortal," I said quietly. "I thought Knights had to be mortals,""He is in love," Grimalkin mrowled for Mab. "That makes him mortal enough for me." She tilted her head. Though I suppose I might make him an offer, while you yet live. He would give much to hold his love again, would he not?"
--- End quote ---
You are correct that was a declarative statement by Mab. However as you can see when Harry says Knights have to be mortal. Mab hedges her bets, because Thomas is in love, that makes him mortal enough for her. Then Mab hints that a bargain that could be made with Thomas so he could hold Justine. This fogs up what the truth is just a bit, while Mab isn't exactly lying to Harry, she isn't exactly telling the truth either.. Though by her standards she is telling the truth, yes, she could recruit Thomas to be her Knight, that isn't the same as make Thomas her Knight.. However just the suggestion that she would recruit Thomas, puts pressure on Harry to become her Knight. Which is what Mab is really after.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 18, 2024, 11:46:44 AM --- ...
You are correct that was a declarative statement by Mab. However as you can see when Harry says Knights have to be mortal. Mab hedges her bets, because Thomas is in love, that makes him mortal enough for her. Then Mab hints that a bargain that could be made with Thomas so he could hold Justine. This fogs up what the truth is just a bit, while Mab isn't exactly lying to Harry, she isn't exactly telling the truth either.. Though by her standards she is telling the truth, yes, she could recruit Thomas to be her Knight, that isn't the same as make Thomas her Knight.. However just the suggestion that she would recruit Thomas, puts pressure on Harry to become her Knight. Which is what Mab is really after.
--- End quote ---
That first declarative by Mab, however, would seem absolute: even if she later gave ambivalent wiggle-room replies, Mab has stated affirmatively that she would recruit Thomas.
Mab can be wrong -- mistaken -- but she cannot lie.
Mira:
--- Quote from: g33k on November 22, 2024, 01:43:11 AM ---That first declarative by Mab, however, would seem absolute: even if she later gave ambivalent wiggle-room replies, Mab has stated affirmatively that she would recruit Thomas.
Mab can be wrong -- mistaken -- but she cannot lie.
--- End quote ---
Recruit isn't the same as making Thomas her Knight. No, she isn't lying about trying to recruit him, but she can recruit all she wants knowing full well it cannot happen.. Is she lying? No. However she also knows the kind of effect at statement would have on Harry.. That's why one shouldn't bargain with the Fae, Mab in particular. She is yanking Harry's chain by using the word recruit, she can say that and not lie.. Her aim is to get Harry as her Knight, not Thomas. In fact I doubt Mab is even interested in Thomas as her Knight, even if it were possible. but she wants Harry to think she is interested..
There is also several quotes in Cold Days over three pages which explains more or less as to why she may threaten to recruit Thomas, Mab isn't serious about it, even if it were possible, it's Harry that she wants. This is where Mother Summer opens Harry's eyes to what Mab's real job is, and what is on the line, makes it easier to understand why Thomas just isn't suitable for the job.
page 331 Cold Days;
--- Quote ---I jerked my eyes away with a short grunt of effort, closed them, and left them closed. "Holy...Outsiders? Mab's fighting Outsiders?"
--- End quote ---
Mother Summer is now hitting home on what Mab really does to Harry..page 332
--- Quote ---"Did you think Mab spent all her days sitting in a chair and dealing with her backstabbing courtiers? No, Sir Knight. Power has purpose.
--- End quote ---
Finally on the next page Harry gets it.. 333 Cold Days;
--- Quote ---"You're telling me that this is why Mab has her power? To...to protect the boarders?" "To protect all of you from Outsiders, mortal."
--- End quote ---
This is why, though maybe she wasn't telling a lie about recruiting Thomas, she was still bluffing. Thomas isn't a starborn, Harry is.. With the BAT coming Mab needs a Knight that can deal with Outsiders, that is Harry, not Thomas..
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mira on November 23, 2024, 05:59:11 AM --- Recruit isn't the same as making Thomas her Knight. No, she isn't lying about trying to recruit him, but she can recruit all she wants knowing full well it cannot happen.. Is she lying?
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure what that even means. Recruit means make him her Knight, or at least that she would definitely offer him Knighthood. She might (and I say might) be able to 'offer' it to someone she knows cannot accept it, but she would have to present her 'offer' supercarefully to get around the 'no falsehood' compulsion, and Thomas (or whoever) could easily force her to tell the truth with even a simple direct question. It's an extreme stretch at best.
I'm pretty sure Mab can't get around the compulsion by 'qualifying' a statement later. That would reduce the compulsion to nothing, it would be trivially easy to get around and nobody would even bother referring to the idea that the Sidhe can't speak a falsehood.
She can carefully phrase direct factual statements to imply a lie, or leave important information out, or otherwise lie with the truth, but the statements themselves must be factual at the time, or at least she has to truly believe they are factual at the time.
There just isn't much wiggle room in Mab's recruitment statement.
--- Quote ---
There is also several quotes in Cold Days over three pages which explains more or less as to why she may threaten to recruit Thomas, Mab isn't serious about it, even if it were possible, it's Harry that she wants. This is where Mother Summer opens Harry's eyes to what Mab's real job is, and what is on the line, makes it easier to understand why Thomas just isn't suitable for the job.
page 331 Cold Days;
Mother Summer is now hitting home on what Mab really does to Harry..page 332
Finally on the next page Harry gets it.. 333 Cold Days;
This is why, though maybe she wasn't telling a lie about recruiting Thomas, she was still bluffing. Thomas isn't a starborn, Harry is.. With the BAT coming Mab needs a Knight that can deal with Outsiders, that is Harry, not Thomas..
--- End quote ---
Yes, she wants Harry. I'm sure she sees Thomas second best on several levels. But if Harry is dead (really dead, I mean, gone and not coming back unless God wills it), then Thomas would be her next choice, because then she can't have Harry anyway. Or at least, Thomas would have been her choice at that time, whether that's still true years later is another matter.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I'm not sure what that even means. Recruit means make him her Knight, or at least that she would definitely offer him Knighthood. She might (and I say might) be able to 'offer' it to someone she knows cannot accept it, but she would have to present her 'offer' supercarefully to get around the 'no falsehood' compulsion, and Thomas (or whoever) could easily force her to tell the truth with even a simple direct question. It's an extreme stretch at best.
--- End quote ---
You can be recruited to go to a school, for a job, to join the military, but you don't have to take any of those jobs. Mab heavily recruited Harry for her Knight, he has close ties to the Fae, yet he could and did refuse the job. It was only when he was completely out of good options to save his daughter, and being Winter Knight was the least bad of several bad options did he then volunteer for the job. So yeah, she is telling the truth that she could recruit Thomas, but she also knows that doesn't mean that he would take it. I also think it has been established as least as far as Red Court Vamps go that the Fae might be able to put that part asleep [in Susan's case] but not cure the problem. So I doubt that Mab could get rid of the Hunger Demon. Now as we learned in Changes, part of the becoming the Knight thing is sex with Mab, perhaps that would allow Thomas to embrace Justine once more. However the kicker there that still doesn't make any sense, is if it was that simple, why didn't Justine or Thomas do it sooner.. Then is there a danger that Thomas could actually kill Mab during the mating ritual. Could Mab prevent Thomas from feeding on her during the ritual? What would that kind of food do to the Hunger Demon? Would Mab really want to risk that? One last note on offers and bargains, don't underestimate Mab when it comes to being super careful or super clever. Ask Nic in Skin Game, Mab didn't lie to him, and you could say she kept her word to him, but did it in such a way that he got screwed and she got what she wanted. That's the whole point of never make bargains with the Fae! You think because they cannot tell a lie, and they will make that a strong selling point in any deal negotiation with them, you will come out on top... You never do because there is always a catch, a glitch, something that you over looked so you lose, and the loss is on you because they never lie.
--- Quote ---She can carefully phrase direct factual statements to imply a lie, or leave important information out, or otherwise lie with the truth, but the statements themselves must be factual at the time, or at least she has to truly believe they are factual at the time.
--- End quote ---
And so it was, she said she could recruit, which was enough to freak Harry.. Why? Because Harry himself is so freaked out about becoming Knight after seeing what the mantel did to Slate.. Mab knows this, so she tells the truth, "I can recruit your brother!" Which Mab can, no lie, but Mab also knows that the mere suggestion of this to Harry sends all kinds of visions of horror dancing though his head if Thomas became her Knight. Mab also knows that Harry would do almost anything to prevent Thomas becoming her Knight, including becoming it himself, which what she wants.
--- Quote ---There just isn't much wiggle room in Mab's recruitment statement.
--- End quote ---
What she is saying and what she is thinking are two different things.
--- Quote ---Yes, she wants Harry. I'm sure she sees Thomas second best on several levels. But if Harry is dead (really dead, I mean, gone and not coming back unless God wills it), then Thomas would be her next choice, because then she can't have Harry anyway. Or at least, Thomas would have been her choice at that time, whether that's still true years later is another matter.
--- End quote ---
Now you are getting into hypotheticals, so Mab can say all of the above and be telling the truth in a "what if" world.. However whether it would actually come about is another matter for a number of reasons.. So Mab in that case can tell the truth without being committed to doing anything, which she would and does gleefully tell those who thought they had a deal with her, but didn't get what they wanted.
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