The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
The Soul Gaze in Blood Rites, Something Margaret Said to Harry About Justine..
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 20, 2024, 06:06:21 AM --- ... One more crazy thought just appeared in my sleep deprived head.. What if it wasn't his mother Harry was talking to in the soul gaze, but Nemesis itself? Ergo the "insight" that she gifted Harry with, was really an attempt at infecting him.. I really don't think so, but it is a possible scenario for who was Harry really talking to in that soul gaze ...
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I presume -- very strongly -- that a Soulgaze is something (likely one of the very few elements) that Nemesis cannot wiggle around. If a wizard Soulgaze's somebody Nemfected, they WILL see it.
(edit: upon reflection, I no longer hold this opinion)
AFAIK, however, this is unaddressed by WoJ.
Mira:
--- Quote ---One concern I have with the 'pre-planned plant' is that Thomas was convinced that Justine had true-love protection. That seems the kind of 'one of a kind' feeling a White Court Vampire wouldn't be wrong about.
Of course that's also a flaw with 'immediately after the near-fatal feeding' for Nemfection, because the True Love protection must have kicked in at/after that feeding.
I can't exclude the possibility Nemesis can simulate it... but in all other Dresden Files situations Love is a rather big deal. To be able to simulate it feels wrong to me.
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It's a matter of timing isn't it? Seems to me that the true love thing would have kicked in before not after the sacrifice. Why? Supposedly Justine already loved Thomas so much she was willing to die to save him.. Isn't that the very definition of true love? Then just touching her should have burned the hell out of him, in fact killed him.. Supposedly the love Thomas felt for Justine was so pure and true, that he was willing to sacrifice himself rather than feed until she died.. Again, sounds like true love to me and should have burned the hell out of him, even killed him to touch her.. Supposedly it's an automatic thing, so did Justine have a quickie with someone else so Thomas could feed upon her? Or was Justine long gone at the time of the feeding? Thomas was dying, supposedly pretty much out of it at the time of the feeding, he would just feed until he was aware it was Justine he was killing.. So yeah, a Neminfected Justine could have faked it.. Returning to another point of when the soul gaze happened, Thomas had recovered, both he and the Hunger should have known by then that Justine survived if she survived, but that wasn't what Harry saw. After that? Why would it be so hard for Nemesis to fake true love? So much so that Thomas would believe it? Nemesis is a real bad ass foe, both Winter and Summer Courts fear it among others, simulating a true love reaction most likely is a piece of cake for it.. Right up to the last moment on the boat going to Demonreach Justine/Nemesis had Harry fooled..
Avernite:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 29, 2024, 12:57:50 AM ---Right up to the last moment on the boat going to Demonreach Justine/Nemesis had Harry fooled..
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I disagree there; Harry felt something off, just wasn't sure what.
When it was about 'emotional reaction to sad news' it didn't trigger a total 'huh', sure...
But if it was towards Thomas about 'our literal worst-possible thing' I'd think even a 'huh that's weird, is it really THE thing'.
And of course Justine had plenty later interactions with parties on the Outsider team, to allow 'act of true love was real, nemfection was later'.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Avernite on August 29, 2024, 10:43:53 AM ---I disagree there; Harry felt something off, just wasn't sure what.
When it was about 'emotional reaction to sad news' it didn't trigger a total 'huh', sure...
But if it was towards Thomas about 'our literal worst-possible thing' I'd think even a 'huh that's weird, is it really THE thing'.
And of course Justine had plenty later interactions with parties on the Outsider team, to allow 'act of true love was real, nemfection was later'.
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But that's the point right? People react, "pregnant people," with hormones a blazing don't always react as expected. Perfect cover, and unless you were looking for Nemesis, would you spot it? No, easy to shrug off for the reasons just stated and Nemesis would be the last thing on Harry's mind at that moment. So Harry didn't make the connection, even though shortly after he leaves her apartment building he is attacked by Corner Hounds..
You could say that Justine became Neminfected at some point right after Changes, when Justine decides to have Lesbian sex so the true love protection was broken and her and Thomas could act physically with each other like a normal couple without him getting a second degree burn every time... However one also has to ask, if they had true love since Blood Rites, and the fix was that simple, why didn't they do that earlier? Unless earlier didn't suit Nemesis's timeline and back in the time of Blood Rites, Harry was just a wizard detective and the Red Court was still very much a force.. Remember since Storm Front Harry had been trying to figure out who or what was in the shadows pulling the strings, using others as cat's paws, he called them the Black Council, remember? So if the Black Council is Nemesis, what a perfect way to penetrate the enemy than to use their lovely pawn, Justine in the great chess game. Moving quietly around, unnoticed, until it was time to upset or try to upset the whole damn board.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: g33k on August 18, 2024, 11:06:37 PM ---I had been presuming a sort of pre-programmed simulacrum, a miniature "spirit of knowledge" along the lines of Bob (or Lash & Bonea (and likely the Archive)) that Margaret had constructed for Harry before her death; albeit a vastly-lesser one.
But for this thing to be tracking all sorts of extra info -- Thomas, and Thomas' girlfriend -- happening out in the world, it'd need to be considerably more robust, not just pre-programming. Able to conduct reconnaissance, to learn, to adapt... not really "lesser," in fact quite robust.
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What if holo-Margaret was talking to Harry during the soulgaze because she placed it in Thomas, like a miniature version of the Fallen leaving a shadow? The simulacrum's ability to learn would be limited to accessing whatever Thomas experiences. She'd believe Justine was dead because Thomas believed it. That would probably cut the difficulty factor considerably. And a simple construct would probably have pretty limited capacity to account for the host believing something but being wrong.
While Justine was near death is an excellent possibility for when she was Nemfected, though. Thomas thought she was already gone, Lord Raith would have had ample opportunity to let his allies get at her while she was convalescing. It's not conclusive though, have been other Outsider collaborators in the White Court who could have got to her later.
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