The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 10, 2024, 05:38:14 PM ---
There I totally disagree, he never had an attitude of disrespect for the WC. Yes, he disagrees with a lot of their ideas as outmoded, and has clashed verbally with them, but he also more often as not speaks of their power and the rules. If he disrespected the White Council he wouldn't have turned Molly over to their justice for trial as a warlock. At the end of the day he still believed in their justice.
--- End quote ---
His attitude about the Council has gone back and forth, sometimes naively trusting, sometimes contemptuous. It's a mark of his youth and inexperience that (esp. in the early books) he tends to see a failure to live up to their ideals and PR entirely as damning, 'either or'.
"The Council can bite me." A quote from one of the early books, from an incident in which Harry was doing something stupid that the Council would have advised against. A few minutes later, he learned how stupid what he was doing was (dealing with Chaunzoggorth).
Mira:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on July 11, 2024, 05:27:48 AM ---His attitude about the Council has gone back and forth, sometimes naively trusting, sometimes contemptuous. It's a mark of his youth and inexperience that (esp. in the early books) he tends to see a failure to live up to their ideals and PR entirely as damning, 'either or'.
"The Council can bite me." A quote from one of the early books, from an incident in which Harry was doing something stupid that the Council would have advised against. A few minutes later, he learned how stupid what he was doing was (dealing with Chaunzoggorth).
--- End quote ---
I think it is a maturing process isn't it? Then there is the fact of all the White Council wizards, Harry is the least shielded from the outer world, i.e. modern world, and it's attitudes. He has also gotten to know at least two wizards, i.e. Mort and Elaine who have avoided becoming members the White Council. I think that too has shaped his attitude in the later years.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 10, 2024, 05:38:14 PM --- I don't think Harry lied ...
--- End quote ---
I'm not trying to argue how things are.
I'm saying how I think things look, from the White Council perspective.
No, Harry didn't "lie" about what happened with Justin; he may have been mistaken in small ways -- or even large ways -- but I think he told the truth as best he could.
But the WC doesn't employ magic to detect or coerce the truth.
And from what they can tell, things look awfully bad where Harry's concerned; it's unclear whether it'd be worse if he was lying or not!
(BTW, @Mira -- I've noted this as a repeated pattern of yours: you respond to something presented as an in-world perspective (how things seem to a character, given their limited Watsonian knowledge) as if it were a full-info Doylist/reader argument; it's very disconcerting).
g33k:
--- Quote from: forumghost on February 14, 2024, 06:31:30 AM ---It's also worth noting that Carlos... actually kinda has a point?
Like, Harry is acting sus as fuck in PT/BG.
Carlos: "Yo Man, we're kinda worried that you've be enthralled by the Totally not White Queen™. Can you talk to us about what's going on"
Harry: *Grounds staff and begins Channeling Magic* "FUCK YOU, I'M NOT SUS, YOU'RE SUS. FUCK OFF OR FIGHT ME".
Like, actually what the fuck dude. You treat your frenemies/enemies with less venom then you do you supposed friends/allies, and then go all 'boo hoo woe is me, why don't they believe me' when they don't trust you
...
--- End quote ---
The thing is: that's not what happened.
If Carlos had come to Harry with his concerns, that'd be one thing.
But it wasn't Carlos.
It was Regional Commander Ramirez, senior Warden... with both a combat-crew and one or more personally-invasive "detection" wizards, confronting Harry out of the blue and...errr... "probing" Harry without his consent.
No, Harry didn't respond well to that.
In fact, he couldn't cooperate with them. He doesn't know all those other wizards, their loyalties and ideologies. Maybe one of them is explicitly going to go debrief the Merlin about how best to take down Harry. Maybe another is in the "Dresden is a warlock we'll have to take down sooner or later; his black magic will corrupt him eventually, inevitably..." camp. He doesn't know, and so he cannot extend that kind of trust (the kind that Carlos, alone, might have elicited).
This is, BTW, exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say that this could still be Carlos trusting Harry and working to buff Harry's "rebel / bad-boy" cred, and build him up with the Black Hat crew: Carlos showed up with a bunch of freaking Wardens, when he knows that:
(a) Harry generally distrusts all Wardens (barring a few specific individuals)
(b) Harry hates having his privacy invaded
(c) Harry is actively trying to look like a Black Hat(tm).
So when Carlos shows up with a posse of unknown-to-Dresden Wardens and demands personal info and accountability... looks a lot like Carlos "aiding and abetting" those points a+b=c
vincentric:
--- Quote from: g33k on July 12, 2024, 12:54:18 AM ---The thing is: that's not what happened.
If Carlos had come to Harry with his concerns, that'd be one thing.
But it wasn't Carlos.
It was Regional Commander Ramirez, senior Warden... with both a combat-crew and one or more personally-invasive "detection" wizards, confronting Harry out of the blue and...errr... "probing" Harry without his consent.
No, Harry didn't respond well to that.
In fact, he couldn't cooperate with them. He doesn't know all those other wizards, their loyalties and ideologies. Maybe one of them is explicitly going to go debrief the Merlin about how best to take down Harry. Maybe another is in the "Dresden is a warlock we'll have to take down sooner or later; his black magic will corrupt him eventually, inevitably..." camp. He doesn't know, and so he cannot extend that kind of trust (the kind that Carlos, alone, might have elicited).
This is, BTW, exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say that this could still be Carlos trusting Harry and working to buff Harry's "rebel / bad-boy" cred, and build him up with the Black Hat crew: Carlos showed up with a bunch of freaking Wardens, when he knows that:
(a) Harry generally distrusts all Wardens (barring a few specific individuals)
(b) Harry hates having his privacy invaded
(c) Harry is actively trying to look like a Black Hat(tm).
So when Carlos shows up with a posse of unknown-to-Dresden Wardens and demands personal info and accountability... looks a lot like Carlos "aiding and abetting" those points a+b=c
--- End quote ---
I agree with you but you're making your argument on a bad basis.
The wardens that Carlos brought were some of his and Harry's best friends among the ranks. It was Carlos, Wild Bill, Hoshino and Chandler. But they did approach Harry in a tactless manner. They should have done it at Murphy's or Michael's or Mac's, not on a dark road in the country. Carlos could have then taken Harry aside and talked off the record.
Again, it's a matter of information. As readers we have it all, the characters have bits and pieces.
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