The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
Mira:
--- Quote ---1/ if Harry's story is true -- killing DuMorne was self-defense after the former Warden sent a summoned demon after him -- then Harry was raised by & apprenticed to a warlock; specifically, he was trained as a warlock (not as a WC wizard). And we know this actually is the case, because Harry keeps showing up with weird bits of wizardly ignorance unsuited for a full WC wizard (types of lycanthrope, 3-queens model of Summer/Winter courts, "Conjuritis," etc)... but with a really-outsized suite of combat-magic. And if his story isn't true -- DuMorne didn't attack first, it wasn't self-defense -- then he killed DuMorne in a full-blown 1st-Law-breaking warlock act.
--- End quote ---
I don't think Harry lied, it was established that he was trained to become an "enforcer" eventually. Harry was raised ignorant of the
White Council and the Seven Laws. Somehow the White Council missed that one of their Wardens, i.e. Justin was either a warlock at the time of his retirement, or turned so shortly after.. How does that happen? Harry was more innocent victim, an angry one with a lot of power, than warlock, according to what Eb saw in his soul gaze of him.. Now that isn't to say that Eb may have blinded himself to the facts because Harry was his grandson, but as an experience wizard and the Council's designated assassin, I believe Eb would recognized it if Harry was a warlock or so far down the road towards that that he was irredeemable.
--- Quote ---Either way, that pre-WC background is a HUGE piece of Harry's "image problem;" it gives the overwhelming appearance of "whichever way it happened, he's still a warlock."
--- End quote ---
Image doesn't make him a warlock.. It was also established back in Death Masks by the Ulsharavas, that though Harry is stained somewhat by black magic and admits to making a bad call or two, that he wasn't a warlock.. If he were the Ulsharavas wouldn't have answered his questions. Appearances are not evidence, one needs facts to prove something.
--- Quote ---2/ Speaking of Harry's "outsized" combat power -- it's REALLY outsized, frighteningly-powerful: Harry scares entire combat-platoons of Wardens. Beginning -- as a barely-trained teen -- by taking out a fully-trained senior Warden, he moved on to vampires (all the big Courts), lycanthropes of various stripes (including the incredibly-tough Loup-Garou), on up to heavyweight Fae and thence to the Summer Lady. It's remarked that before he turned 40 he had seen more combat that most wizards ever saw in their lives, and defeated more-powerful foes than most ever defeated... and he's still in the "dumb kid just figuring stuff out" phase of his career! That's terrifying.
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That still doesn't make either evil or a warlock, all it establishes is that he is powerful, as seen by Eb in the soul gaze. Also especially in his earlier years he was a lot of kaboom with no control.. Yes, he has seen a lot of combat for one of his years, but so has Carlos for that matter, the same could be said of any young Warden who fought in the war with the Red Court. I guess you could call Harry the Audie Murphy of wizards... Audie Murphy who entered the army during WWII at the age of 16 and became the country's most decorated war hero.
--- Quote ---3/ When Harry first met McCoy's Sr-Council allies in the parking structure, one of them reminded McCoy "you know what he was meant to be." Now... we don't know "what he was meant to be." Just the Big Gun in a warlock's private brute-squad? Or something else, something more... a reference to his mom's "Starbabe" plan? And what about the reference to a "Destroyer" in the Morgan-POV short Journal (we don't even know what a "Destroyer" is; but presumably it's something known to (at least some of) the Senior Council)? But there's something about Harry, about his origin and/or early training, that makes him inherently problematic and worrisome, to those who know.
--- End quote ---
More important question I think should be, how does the Council know what Harry was meant to be? And if they knew, how come they let him fall into the hands of someone like Justin in the first place?
--- Quote ---4/ His overall attitude of disrespect for the WC and their authority paints him in a proud and arrogant light; more than one senior wizard has remarked (when Harry complained about the stifling WC rules) that Harry is unaware of the horrors unrestrained wizardry has unleashed (and every time that happens, read the subtext there of Harry having pointed-out to them the inadequacy of his training, how Justin skipped the history and the "why" and the Laws, in favor of m0Ar POWER!
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There I totally disagree, he never had an attitude of disrespect for the WC. Yes, he disagrees with a lot of their ideas as outmoded, and has clashed verbally with them, but he also more often as not speaks of their power and the rules. If he disrespected the White Council he wouldn't have turned Molly over to their justice for trial as a warlock. At the end of the day he still believed in their justice.
Dina:
Mira, I think this time I agree with Geek. I mean, you are right Harry is a victim of Justin, he is not a warlock and he respected the WC rules...but he was raised as a warlock, he sometimes acts like a warlock (full of rage) and he is verbally disrespectful. Do he presents like a Warlock-wonna-be. I think Harry is a sort of young Anakin Skywalker. He has the potential to become a great Jedi master, or Darth Vader. And the WC knows his potential for dark and that scares them. Aside from Eb, they did almost nothing to help him to remain in the light. Luckily, Harry, with the things he learnt from his dad and the guidance of people like Michael, is mostly good.
vincentric:
Mira, no one is arguing that Harry is a warlock, but that the White Council somewhat justified in their suspicion of him based off the information they have.
Aside from Eb, we do not know if any council members have soulgazed Harry, so only secondhand accounts of most of Harry's adventures and character are known to them. We, as readers, have all the necessary information but everything isn't known to the council and a good bit of the exonerating info isn't. A demonstration of soulfire at that council vote would probably have swayed it.
Rashiid knows enough, Eb, Luccio and Listens probably trust him, and Carlos will at least talk before fighting but the rest just don't have enough to make an argument for or against Harry in a council vote and will follow Langtry, (who probably would trust Harry but is biased against him for reasons of pride and politics.)
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 08, 2024, 05:08:15 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on July 08, 2024, 04:15:44 PM ---Part pf Harry's problem with the WC is an Image issue. From the average WV members perspective Harry only shows up to meetings that are generally about bad news.
Harry is a young wizard who should be kissing the rings of older members, trying to make friends and networking. Instead he shows up to meetings late, in the wrong attire and with the attitude that the Council is beneath him. Harry shows up on the WC worst days delivering bad news and expects the WC to back him up.
Image Harry as a core worker, Dude got the job based on friendship with the manager, skips meetings, shows up to criticize the work you have done, claims he can do better than you idiots.
Goes away for who knows how long. Breaks the rules ,is saved by senior management , wants your help with a project he messed up, and you are ordered to help him. Dude f***s off to who knows where. Comes back barely contributes. And then when the project seems like its doomed to fail, shows up with a brilliant solution and gets all the credit. That's Harry from the Average WC member
All anyone knows about Harry is that he is trouble. Harry makes the barest amount of effort to make friends with members of the WC
--- End quote ---
Don't know if I fully agree with all of that. He has an image problem, true, but more because in my opinion of who his mother was and how he became a full wizard in the first place.
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True...but that doesn't really change much. His mother being who she was, and his association with Justin, are all the more reason Harry really should have been making more of an effort, all along, to reassure the other Wizards and project an 'I'm not my mother' image.
Yeah, that's not fair. Yes, we know Harry isn't the nightmare a lot of the other Council members think he is. But Harry still should have been making more of an effort, in part precisely because of who his mother was.
One thing Harry did apprently inherit from Margaret is his attitude. They both have a lot of pride, and a substantial tendency to take a 'FU' attitude to authority they don't respect, which is most authority.
But whether that lack of respect is justified or not, it's still a character flaw, one that has helped put Harry in the position he's now in.
As I said, there is fault on both sides in the Harry/Council relationship.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: g33k on July 10, 2024, 03:02:16 PM ---
4/ His overall attitude of disrespect for the WC and their authority paints him in a proud and arrogant light; more than one senior wizard has remarked (when Harry complained about the stifling WC rules) that Harry is unaware of the horrors unrestrained wizardry has unleashed (and every time that happens, read the subtext there of Harry having pointed-out to them the inadequacy of his training, how Justin skipped the history and the "why" and the Laws, in favor of m0Ar POWER!
--- End quote ---
Note, too, that over the years, Harry himself has been forced to admit that some of the stuff the older Wizards do and insist on turned on to be necessary, even if unpleasant. Harry is still very young inexperienced, as Wizards go, and he still has a lot to learn.
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