The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
Mira:
--- Quote from: g33k on July 12, 2024, 12:54:18 AM ---The thing is: that's not what happened.
If Carlos had come to Harry with his concerns, that'd be one thing.
But it wasn't Carlos.
It was Regional Commander Ramirez, senior Warden... with both a combat-crew and one or more personally-invasive "detection" wizards, confronting Harry out of the blue and...errr... "probing" Harry without his consent.
No, Harry didn't respond well to that.
In fact, he couldn't cooperate with them. He doesn't know all those other wizards, their loyalties and ideologies. Maybe one of them is explicitly going to go debrief the Merlin about how best to take down Harry. Maybe another is in the "Dresden is a warlock we'll have to take down sooner or later; his black magic will corrupt him eventually, inevitably..." camp. He doesn't know, and so he cannot extend that kind of trust (the kind that Carlos, alone, might have elicited).
This is, BTW, exactly the kind of thing I mean when I say that this could still be Carlos trusting Harry and working to buff Harry's "rebel / bad-boy" cred, and build him up with the Black Hat crew: Carlos showed up with a bunch of freaking Wardens, when he knows that:
(a) Harry generally distrusts all Wardens (barring a few specific individuals)
(b) Harry hates having his privacy invaded
(c) Harry is actively trying to look like a Black Hat(tm).
So when Carlos shows up with a posse of unknown-to-Dresden Wardens and demands personal info and accountability... looks a lot like Carlos "aiding and abetting" those points a+b=c
--- End quote ---
You are leaving out a key point which blows any trust Harry may have had when Carlos and company confronted him on the way back from the Raith estate. Earlier on the beach when Harry had had his run with Thomas in the opening chapter of Peace Talks, Carlos shows up and secretly puts a tracking device on Harry. This says that Harry was a target for some reason even before Thomas went off the rails. Then when they catch up to Harry later because sex can be detected on him, they jump to conclusions it was sex with Lara, and Harry isn't about to kiss and tell that it was with Murphy... Meanwhile Chandler is signaling Harry not to trust any of his fellow Wardens.. Confirming this is the fact that Carlos had secretly put a tracking device on Harry from the onset. Why? If it had happened post Thomas assassination, it would make some sense, but it happened before all of that went down. This screams that something was afoot to get Harry or to try and get Harry before all of this started, and Carlos was willing to go along..
--- Quote ---I agree with you but you're making your argument on a bad basis.
The wardens that Carlos brought were some of his and Harry's best friends among the ranks. It was Carlos, Wild Bill, Hoshino and Chandler. But they did approach Harry in a tactless manner. They should have done it at Murphy's or Michael's or Mac's, not on a dark road in the country. Carlos could have then taken Harry aside and talked off the record.
Again, it's a matter of information. As readers we have it all, the characters have bits and pieces.
--- End quote ---
In this case we readers don't have it all either, why was the tracking device put on Harry in the first place? I also agree that the approach was tactless, they also jumped to conclusions, sex was detected on Harry, he came from a visit with Lara, ergo, he must have had sex with Lara, who's brother is Thomas, who is the accused. Not sure how many or if any of the Wardens know that Thomas is actually Harry's brother, they do know that they are friends. Also Carlos must know Harry well enough by now that approaching him in the manner they did would only backfire..
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 12, 2024, 03:40:05 PM ---You are leaving out a key point which blows any trust Harry may have had when Carlos and company confronted him on the way back from the Raith estate. Earlier on the beach when Harry had had his run with Thomas in the opening chapter of Peace Talks, Carlos shows up and secretly puts a tracking device on Harry. This says that Harry was a target for some reason even before Thomas went off the rails ...
--- End quote ---
This isn't really relevant to the question of Carlos and where his trust really lies.
He and Harry agreed to a plan where Carlos was to suck up to the Merlin-loyalist mainstream, lean in on the letter-of-the-law enforcement, and generally work his way up the "traditional" ladder of trust inside the White Council... all the while keeping his ears and eyes open for discrepancies and oddities that might reveal "Black Council" agents.
Now, we can't tell: is he still doing that?
Carlos is acting that way... years later. Without ever touching base & confirming with Harry that he's still sticking to that plan. And similarly, he's acting like his trust in Harry is slipping, like he thinks Harry is compromised, maybe no longer trustworthy.
But then, according to their original plan, Harry was supposed to act just the opposite, the White Council member getting impatient with WC restrictions, making dubious alliances and even allying with rivals and enemies of the WC. Harry has sure been keeping up his end of things! So of course, "conservative Carlos" has to act like he distrusts Harry.
And we -- the readers -- are stuck wondering if Carlos really has turned against Harry, or if he's just playing his role so well he's fooled Harry, too!
--- Quote from: Mira on July 12, 2024, 03:40:05 PM --- ... Not sure how many or if any of the Wardens know that Thomas is actually Harry's brother, they do know that they are friends ...
--- End quote ---
I think the first WC wizard besides Harry himself (and Margaret LaFey) to learn of Thomas' parentage (and being Harry's brother) was when Harry told Ebenezer near the end of PT.
--- Quote from: Mira on July 12, 2024, 03:40:05 PM --- ... Also Carlos must know Harry well enough by now that approaching him in the manner they did would only backfire..
--- End quote ---
Indeed; I'd argue that this is decent evidence that Carlos is still on Harry's side: Carlos staged that little melodrama -- showdown on the dark road -- to demonstrate his own "I'm with the Merlin" credentials, face-down the "problem" Harry Dresden, and to let Harry in turn demonstrate his "I'm a loose cannon, with dubious alliances and possibly under the influence of Lara Raith" credentials.
By this analysis, Carlos was sending a message to Harry: "look how I set up a confrontation where you had to refuse cooperation, full of over-the-top melodrama, let's ham it up for the undoubted post-confrontation debrief and likely observers-in-the-dark."
Tinfoil hat:
--- Quote from: Dina on July 10, 2024, 07:16:04 PM ---Mira, I think this time I agree with Geek. I mean, you are right Harry is a victim of Justin, he is not a warlock and he respected the WC rules...but he was raised as a warlock, he sometimes acts like a warlock (full of rage) and he is verbally disrespectful. Do he presents like a Warlock-wonna-be. I think Harry is a sort of young Anakin Skywalker. He has the potential to become a great Jedi master, or Darth Vader. And the WC knows his potential for dark and that scares them. Aside from Eb, they did almost nothing to help him to remain in the light. Luckily, Harry, with the things he learnt from his dad and the guidance of people like Michael, is mostly good.
--- End quote ---
The Harry Anakin comparison works well. Both are the chosen ones, and have anger issues, trust issues etc.
The way i see it, the older WC members know he is a starborn and a destroyer but the question becomes whose.
The older wizards know prophecy is a dicy business. Just cause someone is a destroyer doesn't mean that they will destroy only your enemies what if you are what they were meant to destroy.
Most wizards are good at rules lawyering. Saying 1 think that could mean 3 or more different things, they have to be since faes are a thing. So it makes them worried about the destroyer / starborn in their midst
Mira:
--- Quote from: Tinfoil hat on July 13, 2024, 10:08:30 AM ---The Harry Anakin comparison works well. Both are the chosen ones, and have anger issues, trust issues etc.
The way i see it, the older WC members know he is a starborn and a destroyer but the question becomes whose.
The older wizards know prophecy is a dicy business. Just cause someone is a destroyer doesn't mean that they will destroy only your enemies what if you are what they were meant to destroy.
Most wizards are good at rules lawyering. Saying 1 think that could mean 3 or more different things, they have to be since faes are a thing. So it makes them worried about the destroyer / starborn in their midst
--- End quote ---
I agree with this for the most part. I think they know they need a starborn to lead in the coming BAT, their problem is it didn't go to plan. To have Margaret LeFey as the child's mother wasn't the plan. To have her murdered shortly after birth by the head of the White Court wasn't part of the plan. To have the child raised for his first six years on the run by his vanilla father without their protection wasn't part of the plan. To have that father die or be murdered and the child disappear into the swamp of the child protection agency until his talents awoke wasn't part of the plan. To have that child then adopted by an former warden turned warlock wasn't part of the plan. Not to realize that the child was being raised by that former warden turned warlock wasn't the plan. The fact that that former warden turned warlock was raising him to be a destroyer wasn't part of the plan. Then for that child at sixteen battle and kill that former warden turned warlock wasn't part of the plan.
That the sixteen year old kid would survive his trial at their hands, be declared a wizard, and then survive three years with the Blackstaff and go his very independent way wasn't part of the plan... In other words the White Council never has had control over this starborn child, and not being in control is something the White Council hates. That's a huge reason why they have never trusted Harry.
vincentric:
Luccio has known about Thomas since Turn Coat.
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