The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
KurtinStGeorge:
There have been some really interesting posts in this thread, with a number of good points made by a number of different people. But I think the overall analysis of the White Council is missing something and it has to do with secrets. Who is clued in, has deep knowledge of what is going on when it comes to Harry Dresden, and who doesn't. The White Council is not a monolith. The White Council can be mentally divided into several factions. Not political factions, but different groups defined by the level of knowledge they possess. Because of gaps in knowledge, these different Council groups fear Harry for different reasons.
Harry was voted out of the Council by a general vote of all it's members. The rank and file members who are not wardens, not support staff who work in Edinburgh HQ and not members of the Senior Council, probably know the least about Harry, but they make up a majority of the White Council. They are therefore the easiest to frighten and manipulate into voting against Harry. Remember, that in their eyes Harry initiated a war with the Red Court and his destruction of the Reds allowed the Fomor to rise. These two things on their own probably got some of their friends killed and put their own lives in danger. Then there was the botched trial of Morgan, which also got a number of wizards killed. They could have blamed Harry for that as well. If that is the case, they might have a point. There is a reason why warlocks are bound and forced to wear a hood. It's so they can't do they kind of things Peabody did. In some peoples minds, that might be enough to vote Harry out. Add a fear campaign to fully turn the normie wizards against Harry and he's out.
The Wardens have a higher level of knowledge, but I'd bet very few of them are fully clued in. Someone like Morgan, because of his close association with the Merlin, might have had more knowledge of what it means that Harry is Starborn, and maybe more knowledge than even Captain Lucio currently has. Though there is no way to be certain of this. The micro-fiction blog Jim wrote about Morgan suggests his knowledge was at a high level. I'd bet that most wardens think that Harry is a good candidate to go warlock and might be headed in that direction; Carlos Ramirez would be in this group, and others might see parallels between Harry and Kemmler. That might be the limit of what they know and what they fear.
I think the Senior Council members who know about Harry being Starborn; and who know what that means or could mean, think Harry becoming the next Heinrich Kemmler is the least of their potential problems. Also, not all of the Senior Council may be fully clued-in. I think there is a decent chance that Senior Council member Cristos is in the dark on this. Harry thought Cristos was Black Council, but it seems more like Cristos is a buffoon or someone's useful idiot, than a true power player of the very highest level. If Cristos didn't already know before he joined the Senior Council, I don't see why anyone already on the Senior Council would want to clue him in.
Why don't I think Harry = Kemmler 2.0 is the real fear driving the Senior Council? Jim stated that Drakul thought that Kemmler's behavior was amusing, something that was funny. While that gives us a clue just how twisted Drakul is, I think it also tells us that he didn't rate Kemmler that highly. Kemmler was a very dangerous person, but even though things like setting up World War One was supposedly one of his projects, I suspect the mad necromancer was somewhat random in his depravity. Beings like Nemesis and Drakul rank higher on the bad news scale because they have a plan. Make that plans. Their interests might diverge greatly from one another.
The the Senior Council's behavior toward Harry is really strange. At least it seems that way to me. Vincentric said something interesting about this. Here a quote:
--- Quote from: vincentric on July 01, 2024, 03:40:43 PM ---If you saw one of the most promising talents of the past century who is also a Starborn, walking close to the darkness, would you try a calm and reasoned intercession or would you bully, threaten and ostracize him even though he has not done any dark acts?
--- End quote ---
It seems counter productive. Almost like the Senior Council was pushing Harry towards the dark side. Kind of dumb, unless that is exactly what they wanted to do. Well, maybe not make Harry into a monster that would turn on the Council, but a monster they could control. Isn't that what Justin DuMorne tried to do, in a very crude way? Of course, making a monster you can control would be a real tricky thing to do. It didn't work out so well for Justin.
I want to give you some evidence for what I am thinking. First, consider something Mab said to Harry and then the rest of the conversation between Mab and Ebenezar:
Mab - "Be comforted, my Knight: I chose you for times precisely such as these, when an elemental of destruction is what is most needed."
What does Mab mean when she describes Harry using the word "elemental?" In simplest terms, when you are using elemental as an adjective, it means "related to, or embodying the powers of nature." But when you are using elemental as a noun it means, "a supernatural entity or force thought to be physically manifested by occult means." (Both definitions from the online Oxford Dictionary) It could mean Harry uses supernatural force or supernatural forces were used to create Harry. I'm think that with Harry being Starborn, it means the later. She is naming Harry as a force who was created for causing destruction.
Mab then starts gushing over Harry's potential for "true greatness" and it really starts to irk Ebenezar.
Eb - “He is not your weapon, Mab.” And Eb's voice is described as having granite in it.
Mab – “He is exactly my weapon. By his own choice. Which is more than your people ever gave him. And they call the Sidhe wicked and deceitful.” At this point Harry looked at Ebenezar but Eb refused to meet Harry’s gaze.
Ebenzar might have used different words or phrases to contest Mab. "He is your Knight Mab, not your plaything." Instead, Ebenezar; without any prompting or hints from Mab, described Harry as a weapon. That is exactly how Mother Winter described Harry in Cold Days:
Mother Summer narrowed her eyes. "Is he ready?"
Mother Winter - "There is no time to coddle him," she rasped. "He is a weapon. Let him be made stronger."
Though Margaret LeFay's role in Harry being Starborn is somewhat vague at this point, I think the White Council started to manipulate and mold Harry from time they found him. Whether that was right after Malcolm Dresden died or after Harry killed Justin, I can't be certain. Justin might have part of the Council's plan and turned on the Council or he may have been operating independently all along. We don't have enough information to know with certainty. I think Ebenezar was in on the plan, whenever it started. He said he soulgazed Malcolm Dresden. "...a man with a good soul, like few I have ever seen."
If Justin raising Harry was part of the Council's plan to mold Harry, when Harry broke the First Law by killing Justin, the Council believed they had made a mistake, that Harry was a mistake. It didn't matter that Harry acted in self defense or that Justin had become a warlock himself. Harry was too dangerous and too unpredictable to trust. Of course, Ebenezar felt differently and he managed to get Harry a reprieve, The Doom. The Council's fear that Harry couldn't be controlled remained and even Ebenzar's closest allies remained warry of Harry.
Martha Liberty - "You know what he was meant to be. He's too great a risk."
I think Ebenzar believes that as long as Harry might still become a weapon of the White Council, he can protect Harry from the Council's wrath. The thing about weapons, is when they get used in wars, they usually get used up and then are discarded. I'm not sure Eb is doing Harry any long-term favors by trying to protect him.
I wonder if there are any other starborn besides Harry, Listen and Dracul? Specifically, any other starborn the Senior Council might want to use in Harry's place. With Ethniu locked up and with Korb wanting him dead, Listen needs a new employer. :D
What do you think? Except for that last sentence, that was a lame joke. Am I on the right track? I know this puzzle is missing some pieces, but it feels right to me. Harry is a weapon who may have been created by the will of Margaret LeFey, but one who has been molded by the White Council, until they gave up on him. Except for Ebenezar and maybe Listen's to Wind and a few others.
Post Script: This is why LTW and Eb don't want tell Harry everything. Harry might not react well to this information. An elemental of destruction not reacting well could be a real problem.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on October 18, 2024, 09:47:28 AM ---Jim stated that Drakul thought that Kemmler's behavior was amusing, something that was funny. While that gives us a clue just how twisted Drakul is, I think it also tells us that he didn't rate Kemmler that highly. Kemmler was a very dangerous person, but even though things like setting up World War One was supposedly one of his projects, I suspect the mad necromancer was somewhat random in his depravity. Beings like Nemesis and Drakul rank higher on the bad news scale because they have a plan.
--- End quote ---
I'm still a bit confused what to make of that bit, given we know from DB that Kemmler's research interests included "how to use necromancy against the black court". Looking for weaknesses in his elite personal guard seems like the kind of thing Drakul would find pretty far from amusing.
Unless the WOJ meant Drakul found Kemmler's earlier career with the world wars and stuff funny, until he crossed a line in his final publication? The timing seems awfully coincidental that the Council had been after him for the best part of a century and only got him for good shortly after he published the one thing that might have genuinely pissed Drakul off. I wonder if Drakul took a page from the Stokerlypse and exploited the council into being his mob to burn down Kemmler and purge (almost) all the copies of his last book.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Harry was voted out of the Council by a general vote of all it's members. The rank and file members who are not wardens, not support staff who work in Edinburgh HQ and not members of the Senior Council, probably know the least about Harry, but they make up a majority of the White Council. They are therefore the easiest to frighten and manipulate into voting against Harry. Remember, that in their eyes Harry initiated a war with the Red Court and his destruction of the Reds allowed the Fomor to rise. These two things on their own probably got some of their friends killed and put their own lives in danger. Then there was the botched trial of Morgan, which also got a number of wizards killed. They could have blamed Harry for that as well. If that is the case, they might have a point. There is a reason why warlocks are bound and forced to wear a hood. It's so they can't do they kind of things Peabody did. In some peoples minds, that might be enough to vote Harry out. Add a fear campaign to fully turn the normie wizards against Harry and he's out.
--- End quote ---
One has to wonder though, who remained in the general membership of the White Council? How easily were they influenced? In my opinion most things the Merlin said most would go along with, we saw that at Molly's trial when he wanted to push through her conviction in Proven Guilty. We also saw how pissed the Merlin was in a controlled way when Harry stood up in defense of her and won some serious political points that ultimately saved her. I also remember Eb after it was over warning Harry that the Merlin wouldn't forget that Harry had gotten the upper hand politically against him. As I said in a earlier post, the three Senior Councilors who also carry influence over the general membership, Eb, LTW, and particularly Rashid were missing the day that it came to a vote. We've seen in the past how Rashid has been able with his logic and wisdom and support, to delay or blow up plans to bring down Harry. Whether it was in Summer Knight or Proven Guilty, Rashid when he makes an appearance has made a huge difference.
--- Quote ---I think Ebenzar believes that as long as Harry might still become a weapon of the White Council, he can protect Harry from the Council's wrath. The thing about weapons, is when they get used in wars, they usually get used up and then are discarded. I'm not sure Eb is doing Harry any long-term favors by trying to protect him.
I wonder if there are any other starborn besides Harry, Listen and Dracul? Specifically, any other starborn the Senior Council might want to use in Harry's place. With Ethniu locked up and with Korb wanting him dead, Listen needs a new employer. :D
--- End quote ---
I do think that Harry was meant to be a weapon for the White Council, but Margaret threw a monkey wrench into the cogs when she chose Malcolm to be Harry's father. While I do think it was Lord Raith who killed Margaret, it is very possible that the White Council or elements of it were behind the murder of Malcolm. It is also very possible that Eb allowed Harry to get lost with in the foster care black hole because he didn't want to draw attention to the fact that he was Harry's grandfather. What they hadn't foreseen was the corruption of Justin, otherwise the White Council was perfectly happy with him raising Harry.
As to how many more star born there are, I imagine there are hundreds just because a lot of babies are born at those times. However very few have magical or potential for magical talent.. Though it could be that many of the world's most powerful leaders are indeed star born in their charisma.
Dina:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 18, 2024, 06:43:29 PM ---As to how many more star born there are, I imagine there are hundreds just because a lot of babies are born at those times. However very few have magical or potential for magical talent.. Though it could be that many of the world's most powerful leaders are indeed star born in their charisma.
--- End quote ---
First, I agree with this paragraph of Mira's post. Many starborns, most of them magically irrelevant.
About what Mira and the others were saying. I still don't know who killed Malcolm and I do not discard Winter. I can see Lea killing him (not directly) because she thought Harry would turn to her. Which reminds me, I want to see the "I am your fairy godmother" scene. But about the rest, everyone sees Harry as a weapon. Everyone but his friends, daughter and brother, and that pushes him to become a monster. But I do think Malcolm was not planned for anyone and that he is the key to make Harry more than a weapon and not a monster. I hope we are going to see more of this.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Snark Knight on October 18, 2024, 05:12:41 PM ---I'm still a bit confused what to make of that bit, given we know from DB that Kemmler's research interests included "how to use necromancy against the black court". Looking for weaknesses in his elite personal guard seems like the kind of thing Drakul would find pretty far from amusing.
Unless the WOJ meant Drakul found Kemmler's earlier career with the world wars and stuff funny, until he crossed a line in his final publication? The timing seems awfully coincidental that the Council had been after him for the best part of a century and only got him for good shortly after he published the one thing that might have genuinely pissed Drakul off. I wonder if Drakul took a page from the Stokerlypse and exploited the council into being his mob to burn down Kemmler and purge (almost) all the copies of his last book.
--- End quote ---
I think it is possible, even probable that Kemmler didn't write something that said, "Here is how to use necromancy against a Black Court vampire" or anything that directly stated or hinted that the Black Court is vulnerable to necromancy. I think it is more likely that Harry made an intuitive leap that necromancy can be used against the Black Court.
It is even possible that Lash gave Harry help making this connection because she translated Kemmler's original writing into something Harry could understand and fully grasp. Lash would have known about Harry's conflict with Mavra; and especially known about previous injury he suffered, because Lash once stated that she could feel what Harry felt, and would have wanted Harry to have the knowledge to do more than survive any future hostile encounters with Mavra. Seeing as Harry had refused to take up the coin, Lash couldn't count on Harry having the full abilities of a Denarian to deal with Mavra or any other Black Court vampire the next time he encountered one.
Harry really needs to re-think the idea that he can turn his back on necromancy, that his temporary resurrection of Sue was a onetime event. As dangerous as using necromancy might be; both because of the possible mind altering side effects and that Harry would be breaking one of the Laws, it is probably the only weapon Harry might wield against Drakul that would be effective. I suppose Harry could teach Ebenezar to use necromancy against Drakul; seeing as the Black Staff can break the Laws of magic without consequences, but there isn't any guarantee Eb will be around much longer.
P.S. I just reread Morgan's micro-fiction. I should have done that before making the long post I made above. I now have two possible scenarios for what happened to both young Harry and Malcolm. However, I have other duties to attend to at the moment, so I will have to write them down later. These ideas are not fully filled in, but they are enough to suggest the general path of events.
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