The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
Mira:
--- Quote from: Lord Kinbote on October 16, 2024, 06:02:57 PM ---Maybe the point has already made; if so, excuse the repetition.
Carlos knew Molly before she assumed the Winter Lady mantle and trusted her, in no way expecting that Molly would severely injure him when he attempted to get intimate with her in a wholly consensual situation (or what her mantle did to him, but same thing from Carlos' perspective). So he's seen what Molly's Winter mantle does irrespective of Molly's wishes/decisions and how irrelevant the consequences to a human are to her mantle.
Can we expect that Carlos would think that the Winter Knight's mantle would have some different, more gentle effect on Harry? Carlos must see Harry as extremely dangerous and inherently unpredictable, especially after what Carlos and the White Council saw and what Harry did during BG (and now Harry has a Titan bound to his will - and White Knight Harry may have the same power over the entities imprisoned by Demonreach). And with all the deaths, the WC held Dresden culpable to some degree for Chicago (even if it was simply because Dresden should have come to the WC sooner and been more open).
Seems to me Carlos' position is imminently understandable.
--- End quote ---
Understandable, but it doesn't mean that it is the right. The deaths that the WC pinned on Harry were those who were Fomor and were really not human anymore, plus when the WC made that determination Harry had no credible defense to testify in his behalf. It also wouldn't have made any difference if Harry had come to them sooner about the coming attack, he found out about the same time they did.
It's Warden Harry not Winter Knight Harry that has that kind of power on the island.
What happened to Molly and Carlos was a dirty trick played on her by Mab because she never told Molly all the rules regarding being the Winter Lady. Yes, it makes Carlos' reaction understandable, it also explains a lot of Maeve's sexual frustration which led to her down fall.
Dina:
Also, as far as I know, Harry does not know what Molly did to Carlos. So he never talked with him about that. Carlos may think that Harry supported Molly not only because it is his duty as WK but because he is basically brainwashed to think she is right.
KurtinStGeorge:
I want to make a statement about the OP, because I haven't made a post in this thread before. Then I am going to make a separate post about the White Council though it will have to wait until tomorrow because I have a lot to say. I'll just tease that I have a totally different take on the Council's attitude towards Harry than I've read so far in this thread.
"Has Carlos sided with the Merlin against Harry?" Turn that idea around. Has the Arthur Langtry, A.K.A. the Merlin, attempted to recruit Carlos Ramirez to his point of view? We don't have any proof of this, but it makes a great deal of sense that Arthur would at least make the attempt to do so.
There is a description of two characters in the John Le Carre novel "Tinker, Taylor, Soldier Spy" that would seem to fit the Merlin and the late Warden Donald Morgan quite well. Together, these two characters were seen by their fellow members of British Intelligence as "the iron fist inside the iron glove." One of them was higher up in "The Circus" (MI6 I guess) and involved in planning intelligence operations while the other character was performing the actual field work. The one who got his hands dirty, so to speak. Arthur Langtry and Warden Morgan might have been described that way.
The Merlin probably feels the need to replace Morgan. Someone high up in the Wardens. Someone who can; to a degree, monitor the activities of one Harry Dresden. Though Morgan hadn't been able to do that after the events in Dead Beat. Harry mentioned Carlos reputation as a rising star within the Council, so that would appeal to the Merlin. Recruit someone the younger wardens like and can relate to.
Finally, after Carlos was nearly killed by Molly, it's possible the Merlin made an inquiry to discover what happened to the young warden. It wouldn't have been a personal secret that Carlos' physician; I think it was LTW, would have to keep from the Merlin. Arthur Langtry would have seen that incident as something he could use to sow doubt in Carlos' mind about Harry. Think of ideas, if not the exact sentences, the Merlin might have used to persuade Carlos. Molly was a warlock and she was Harry's apprentice. Harry trained her and now as the Winter lady Molly can't control herself. Do you think the Winter Knight can do any better when he is under the direct orders and influence of Mab? What about Harry's dalliance with the White Court? It isn't a one time event. He has been at Raith's mansion in Chicago several times and has made common cause with Raith's on several occasions. Harry Dresden needs to be protected from himself, before its too late.
I could go on, add more negative thoughts or give these ideas more detail, but I'm pretty sure everyone gets the point. I feel fairly confident Langtry has recruited; or has begun the process of recruiting, Carlos as his new right hand. However, there is one other factor that makes Carlos Ramirez the perfect target for the Merlin to recruit. He is young and naïve; relatively speaking, to the remaining "old guard" members of the wardens. Remember in Turn Coat, Harry asked Morgan if he knew that he would be blamed for La Fortier's death, that there wasn't a reasonable way for Morgan to defend himself. Morgan's reply was "I've seen it happen before." The remaining "old guard" has as well. More than that, they saw that the Merlin was ready to sacrifice Morgan to save his position and did sacrifice Morgan's memory and reputation in an attempt to make the White Council look strong. With that example, it is not likely many or any of them would want to take Morgan's place.
Dina:
I like that, it is quite probable.
Mira:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on October 17, 2024, 10:16:57 AM ---I want to make a statement about the OP, because I haven't made a post in this thread before. Then I am going to make a separate post about the White Council though it will have to wait until tomorrow because I have a lot to say. I'll just tease that I have a totally different take on the Council's attitude towards Harry than I've read so far in this thread.
"Has Carlos sided with the Merlin against Harry?" Turn that idea around. Has the Arthur Langtry, A.K.A. the Merlin, attempted to recruit Carlos Ramirez to his point of view? We don't have any proof of this, but it makes a great deal of sense that Arthur would at least make the attempt to do so.
There is a description of two characters in the John Le Carre novel "Tinker, Taylor, Soldier Spy" that would seem to fit the Merlin and the late Warden Donald Morgan quite well. Together, these two characters were seen by their fellow members of British Intelligence as "the iron fist inside the iron glove." One of them was higher up in "The Circus" (MI6 I guess) and involved in planning intelligence operations while the other character was performing the actual field work. The one who got his hands dirty, so to speak. Arthur Langtry and Warden Morgan might have been described that way.
The Merlin probably feels the need to replace Morgan. Someone high up in the Wardens. Someone who can; to a degree, monitor the activities of one Harry Dresden. Though Morgan hadn't been able to do that after the events in Dead Beat. Harry mentioned Carlos reputation as a rising star within the Council, so that would appeal to the Merlin. Recruit someone the younger wardens like and can relate to.
Finally, after Carlos was nearly killed by Molly, it's possible the Merlin made an inquiry to discover what happened to the young warden. It wouldn't have been a personal secret that Carlos' physician; I think it was LTW, would have to keep from the Merlin. Arthur Langtry would have seen that incident as something he could use to sow doubt in Carlos' mind about Harry. Think of ideas, if not the exact sentences, the Merlin might have used to persuade Carlos. Molly was a warlock and she was Harry's apprentice. Harry trained her and now as the Winter lady Molly can't control herself. Do you think the Winter Knight can do any better when he is under the direct orders and influence of Mab? What about Harry's dalliance with the White Court? It isn't a one time event. He has been at Raith's mansion in Chicago several times and has made common cause with Raith's on several occasions. Harry Dresden needs to be protected from himself, before its too late.
I could go on, add more negative thoughts or give these ideas more detail, but I'm pretty sure everyone gets the point. I feel fairly confident Langtry has recruited; or has begun the process of recruiting, Carlos as his new right hand. However, there is one other factor that makes Carlos Ramirez the perfect target for the Merlin to recruit. He is young and naïve; relatively speaking, to the remaining "old guard" members of the wardens. Remember in Turn Coat, Harry asked Morgan if he knew that he would be blamed for La Fortier's death, that there wasn't a reasonable way to defend himself. Morgan's reply was "I've seen it happen before." The remaining "old guard" has as well. More than that, they saw that the Merlin was ready to sacrifice Morgan to save his position and did sacrifice Morgan's memory and reputation in an attempt to make the White Council look strong. With that example, it is not likely many or any of them would want to take Morgan's place.
--- End quote ---
Very interesting and plausible. I also think that Peabody's ink also plays a role in this somewhere. One wonders as Rashid did at the end of Turn Coat how much damage had been done and for how long had it been going on? He also added that it was going to take a lot of work to undo the damage it had caused. However having said that, how much was able to be repaired? Did the Merlin include himself as someone who might need physical deprogramming? Not unlike Luccio, the Merlin could have been physically changed by the ink? It would make sense that he would be made a target like she was. Remember the Council decided that an innocent man, Morgan was to be sacrificed least the Council look bad. If they were knowingly willing to execute an innocent man, just how far would they be willing to go? I also imagine since Harry was the guy that uncovered all of this, it would make Harry a target for whomever was behind the plot, since we really don't know who Peabody was making his ink for, or for what reason. Also interesting now that I think of it, of the Senior Council members the three that I remember on page being shocked by the fact that they had been manipulated by Peabody's ink were LTW, Eb, and Rashid, the very people who would stand up for Harry at the time of the vote against him, but weren't present. On page anyway, I don't remember much being said by any other Council Members also were subjected to Peabody's ink.
I can also see a lot of conclusion jumping on the part of the White Council on just how the Winter Court functions and the powers of it's Queens and Knights. Also again, secrets can come back to bite one in the ass as they say, i.e. Harry up until Peace Talks had told no one of the White Council that Thomas was his half brother. So yeah, Harry going to great lengths to try and save Thomas, a well known White Court vampire, would automatically make Harry suspect. It's also interesting that of all the Wardens mentioned at the beginning of Peace Talks, Chandler seemed to be the only Warden not going along with the general consensus that Harry might be up to no good and had to be trailed. This is before any assassination etc by Thomas, true, Harry didn't help his case after it happened when he didn't answer questions or took offense at the scan for his recent sexual activity.. It was Chandler who was giving him warning signals not to play along, not his friend Carlos. However that too can be seen two ways, Chandler didn't go along with Harry being suspect of anything, thus was warning him.. Or Chandler wanted to set Harry up so things would go worse for him.. This could go along with the reason other than Harry and Carlos, Chandler was the only Warden survivor in the fight against the Black Court, or presumably he survived, because he was shipped into another dimension.. Guess we will find out more in Mirror Mirror.
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