The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?
Mira:
--- Quote ---The point is to prove that Mab can be wrong, and Mab can make mistakes, rather than assuming everything she says is just lie after lie. WOJ itself said she was wrong, she believed what she was saying, she did not lie. If she believed what she said, then she believed her understanding of the rules regarding free will was the truth. Just because she was ignorant of the greater cosmic truth Uriel shared does not make her a liar.
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Nobody is saying she tells lie after lie, a good con-artist doesn't do that.. Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it? You think she is that stupid? The answer is no, she isn't, she also sees Harry, a star born powerful wizard as an opportunity. In other words a powerful weapon for the Winter Court, and we've heard several times now that the reason Harry was born was to be a weapon.. So Mab isn't above twisting those cosmic rules to have her way with Harry.. To do that effectively, you have to know them very well... And Mab does.
--- Quote ---Yeah, that tends to happen when Denarians who have no value for human life decide to take action. Neither of us can reasonably prove that it would or could have been avoided if Mab had gone against her nature and spoon-fed Harry every infinitesimal detail of their plotting.
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No, then again, they may have had a better chance... Also this wasn't about spoon feeding Harry about their plot, it was about being honest with him that this wasn't about repaying a favor to Nic, it was about vengeance for Marcone.
--- Quote ---The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.
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And he and Molly were right about that, not just the lack of information, but the lack of concern for the innocents who died because they happened to get in the way of their plotting.. This was before Marcone took up Namshiel's coin, or it may have it may have gone down differently, but Harry threatened to take Marcone to the mat over it, in his house where Mab, her Lady and her knight were guests which would have broken all kinds of rules and ruined Mab.. So she was forced to go along, she was not a happy camper.
--- Quote ---Why do some of the best thoughts only come after hitting the Post button?
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That's why there is a "modify post" button... For that and really dumb spelling and grammar errors made either late at night when half asleep or early in the morning half asleep without coffee.. ::)
CrusherJen:
--- Quote ---Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it? You think she is that stupid? The answer is no, she isn't
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No, Mab isn't stupid. But even after a thousand years, I doubt Mab knows everything there is to know about anything, including free will. She pretty much proves this by the way she treats Harry at the start of his tenure as Winter Knight. She demands his unconditional obedience, vastly underestimating his force of will and spirit of defiance. That's not just the wrong way to go with someone like him, it's the worst way to deal with him, and if she was so expert in matters of free will, she should have known that, too-- but she didn't. Even the smartest people can get things wrong, and Mab's no exception to that.
--- Quote ---2011 DC signing
Did Mab lie? (At the end of Ghost Story)
Mab did not lie, Mab was wrong. There’s a subtle difference to that, at the end of Ghost Story. As far as Mab is concerned, she’s telling the truth, because she’s telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level. So we’ll see how that plays out a little bit more in the next book.
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I think that's pretty clear. And it's our choice whether to believe it or not.
--- Quote ---No, then again, they may have had a better chance... Also this wasn't about spoon feeding Harry about their plot, it was about being honest with him that this wasn't about repaying a favor to Nic, it was about vengeance for Marcone.
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The books tell us repeatedly that it is not in the nature of the fae to give anything away for free, unless there's a prior bargain or obligation that demands it. So Mab can't just tell Harry everything up front-- that would be going against her nature as a Queen of the fae. It's possible that if Harry had asked more questions, relying on the debt a Queen owes a Knight, he might have found out more... but we didn't see it in the text.
And even if he had asked, and gotten answers, it might not have made any difference to the outcome. Mab and Marcone's planning shaped the battlefield where events took place, but I'm not sure either of them could have fully predicted the Denarians' actions once they got there. Only Nic, Dierdre, and maybe the other hidden coin-wielders knew their whole side of the plan... and they weren't telling. The non-Denarian members of the party were given as little information as possible, on a need-to-know basis-- and Tessa was a wild card trying to upset the whole caper. Harry did the best he could, but it wasn't enough to save everyone. The deaths were the fault of the Denarians' actions, not Mab. I don't think Harry believes otherwise (although he still feels guilt, because he's Harry.) He said what he did to Mab and Marcone to deliberately manipulate them into paying weregild, and it worked. It's a means to an end, not entirely true in itself. Harry's not above a little deception of his own if it's for a worthy cause.
And while I agree that the whole book was far more about revenge on Nic than about merely returning a favor, I don't see it as one thing or the other, either/or. Mab-the-Chessmaster knows how to accomplish multiple things with one action. So both "repaying the debt" and "roaring rampage of revenge" can be true at the same time.
--- Quote ---That's why there is a "modify post" button... For that and really dumb spelling and grammar errors made either late at night when half asleep or early in the morning half asleep without coffee..
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Thank you for understanding! :D ;D I try not to rely on edits too much, but I'm glad we have them, for when my brain isn't running fast enough. ;D ;D
Dina:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 29, 2023, 01:08:52 PM ---Nobody is saying she tells lie after lie, a good con-artist doesn't do that.. Do you really think that after nearly a thousand years of having to deal with mortals and the cosmic rules regarding free will that she'd be ignorant about it? You think she is that stupid? The answer is no, she isn't, she also sees Harry, a star born powerful wizard as an opportunity. In other words a powerful weapon for the Winter Court, and we've heard several times now that the reason Harry was born was to be a weapon.. So Mab isn't above twisting those cosmic rules to have her way with Harry.. To do that effectively, you have to know them very well... And Mab does.
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No. Mab cannot twist the cosmic rules. I mean, he cannot choose to twist them. It is why when Harry discovered a fae lying he knew they had been nemfected. It is their own nature that has been changed. Fae absolutely cannot lie. Which makes things very confusing, like when Mab introduces herself with a vanilla name. I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Dina on October 29, 2023, 08:04:50 PM --- ... I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying.
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"Sommerset" = "Summer's End" = Winter
Mab is "Mrs. Winter"
The_Sibelis:
--- Quote from: g33k on October 30, 2023, 04:02:50 AM ---"Sommerset" = "Summer's End" = Winter
Mab is "Mrs. Winter"
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actually, I imagine that's why they pick such oddly obvious names. They cannot lie but they can take an alias based on what they actually are. Or conceivably, a name they literally "took" from a mortal or any other masks they might be able to claim?
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