The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?
Mira:
--- Quote from: Dina on October 29, 2023, 08:04:50 PM ---No. Mab cannot twist the cosmic rules. I mean, he cannot choose to twist them. It is why when Harry discovered a fae lying he knew they had been nemfected. It is their own nature that has been changed. Fae absolutely cannot lie. Which makes things very confusing, like when Mab introduces herself with a vanilla name. I imagine Mrs. Sommerset is a title she wears, so she is not lying.
--- End quote ---
What is confusing is Mab was twisting the rules when she said that Harry was hers to control. Uriel called her on it. Even more confusing, what he said she said was, "Lies." I think the better argument would be is, why? To make Harry feel better? Okay, so archangels can lie, because Uriel was lying when he in effect said that Mab was lying...
--- Quote ---actually, I imagine that's why they pick such oddly obvious names. They cannot lie but they can take an alias based on what they actually are. Or conceivably, a name they literally "took" from a mortal or any other masks they might be able to claim?
--- End quote ---
I think a mask is different from taking an alias, Odin for example is Kringle when he is wearing that mask, so it is a valid alias and not a lie. If Odin claimed to be the Easter Bunny for example it would be different.
--- Quote ---No, Mab isn't stupid. But even after a thousand years, I doubt Mab knows everything there is to know about anything, including free will. She pretty much proves this by the way she treats Harry at the start of his tenure as Winter Knight. She demands his unconditional obedience, vastly underestimating his force of will and spirit of defiance. That's not just the wrong way to go with someone like him, it's the worst way to deal with him, and if she was so expert in matters of free will, she should have known that, too-- but she didn't. Even the smartest people can get things wrong, and Mab's no exception to that.
--- End quote ---
Or she is trying to do what Eb warned Harry about in Changes.. "Try to lie.." Trying to lie isn't the same as actually lying is it? Mab the scammer was able to convince Harry that she could control him and change who he is.. Remember one can deceive without lying. Yes, the smartest people get things wrong, but in this case I doubt that Mab was merely mistaken... Uriel didn't say mistaken, he said, "lies."
I also think that Mab is a very good lawyer, in other words she is very good at finding loopholes..
Dina:
g33k and Sibelis, yes, that is what I meant. Not lying.
Mira, I absolutely agree about your last line about Mab and loopholes.
And yes, it is really confusing that Uriel says "Lies" and no "wrong", hence this thread is so interesting.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 30, 2023, 11:33:32 AM --- What is confusing is Mab was twisting the rules when she said that Harry was hers to control...
--- End quote ---
She's just wrong about the rules; not "lying" and not "twisting" (bending/modifying) them -- as mentioned, these rules are beyond Mab's ability to bend/modify. But anybody can be "wrong" about something (q.v. "Flat Earth Society").
But Mab tries to control her Knights... each and every one of them. She's Mab; she has to. Because she's freaking Mab, she mostly succeeds.
For the past thousand-ish years Mab's Knights have been "hers to shape," because they have let her get away with that. Harry is stubborn, though; and Uriel is personally-invested in Harry keeping his free will.
Lloyd Slate was the only WK Harry had ever met, and well-known as a sadistic, murderous monster. Bob has told Harry that the Mantles exert an inexorable force to shape their bearers, with inevitable results.
So, Harry tells himself the WK-Mantle is a one-way ticket to monsterhood.
When Mab "spoke her truth" to Harry (which wasn't the truth, but also wasn't a lie), it dovetailed 100% with Harry's preconceptions -- and Harry knows "faeries cannot lie." It could have been the final nail in the coffin of his hopes -- as with WK's before, giving up hope would have inevitably led to Harry eventually succumbing to the various temptations and pressures that Mab always applies.
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 30, 2023, 11:33:32 AM ---What is confusing is Mab was twisting the rules when she said that Harry was hers to control. Uriel called her on it. Even more confusing, what he said she said was, "Lies." I think the better argument would be is, why? To make Harry feel better? Okay, so archangels can lie, because Uriel was lying when he in effect said that Mab was lying...
I think a mask is different from taking an alias, Odin for example is Kringle when he is wearing that mask, so it is a valid alias and not a lie. If Odin claimed to be the Easter Bunny for example it would be different. Or she is trying to do what Eb warned Harry about in Changes.. "Try to lie.." Trying to lie isn't the same as actually lying is it? Mab the scammer was able to convince Harry that she could control him and change who he is.. Remember one can deceive without lying. Yes, the smartest people get things wrong, but in this case I doubt that Mab was merely mistaken... Uriel didn't say mistaken, he said, "lies."
I also think that Mab is a very good lawyer, in other words she is very good at finding loopholes..
--- End quote ---
Yes Mab is trying to be deceptive. She wants a compliant Knight and that was just the start of a campaign to train Harry. He's extremely valuable to her. Mab spent months in that cave on Demonreach to save Harry. She's not going to let that kind of investment run loose.
But Uriel was not speaking to counter Mab. He's not allowed to! His seven words are a direct counter to Lasciel's lie that made Harry lose hope and commit suicide. If Lasciel hadn't spoken to Harry in Changes, and he still came up with the Kincaid plan, Uriel wouldn't have been allowed to speak his seven words. Because he's Uriel, the words he chose also had the best possible effect toward bolstering Harry's resolve against Mab's control. And the Harry they get from it is better for both Mab's and Uriel's purposes.
Mira:
--- Quote ---But Uriel was not speaking to counter Mab. He's not allowed to! His seven words are a direct counter to Lasciel's lie that made Harry lose hope and commit suicide
--- End quote ---
That's where it gets fuzzy, because perhaps what Lasciel said enabled Uriel to speak the seven words. But it appears that Uriel had full control as to when to speak them, he chose to speak them after Mab had recovering Harry convinced that he was hers to control... Again, he says, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are." Lasciel hadn't just spoken the untruths, Mab had. In other words while Lasciel's lies may have opened the door, Uriel had wide discretion for his counter measures as to how and when to use them. Lasciel's lies didn't happen in a vacuum, and Mab was part of that whether she intended to be or not.
--- Quote ---For the past thousand-ish years Mab's Knights have been "hers to shape," because they have let her get away with that. Harry is stubborn, though; and Uriel is personally-invested in Harry keeping his free will.
--- End quote ---
But that's the whole point! It is exactly what Eb was warning Harry about in Changes! In Mab's mind because her knights have always let her get away with shaping them.. They are hers to shape. In her mind, not a lie because she has always gotten away with it, so they are hers to shape.. Maybe before Harry, no knight has objected to her shaping them, so in her mind she isn't really lying. And so she tries to tell them that lie because since they already think it, it isn't a lie.. Harry fell for it, that was a huge reason for the suicide, he saw no way out of it, and part was his state of mind because of Lasciel. And yes, Uriel has a lot invested in Harry and his free will... So while Mab may believe she isn't lying because all her previous knights let her have her way with them.. It still was untrue, and Harry needed to know that.. Once he understood that it was untrue his whole relationship with Mab changed. While yeah, Uriel could have gone deep into the weeds as we have done as to how the Fae cannot lie but can deceive yadda, yadda, yadda.... Harry was weak,and a bit confused because of his soul walk about. Mab was trying to take full advantage of that confusion, "he is mine to shape.." Harry was relapsing,still believing it, "damn it." So Uriel cut to the chase and only needed his seven words to do it... "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are." Harry gleefully counts them as he does it as well, counts them off to Mab, it forms the basis for their relationship going forth.
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