The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?

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Mira:
  We are told from the get go that the Fae cannot lie.  It is Mab's standard reply to any question or problem Harry may have with something she has asked of him... The Fae cannot lie, even though Harry may feel like she has moved the goal posts to suit whatever it is in his dealings with her. We've also heard Lea say it, it is established that the Fae cannot lie.

Uriel is an archangel, I don't think in general they are liars either.  One of his kind is called," the Prince of Lies," better known as Satan, who was kicked out of Heaven for that among other offenses.  Anyway Google the question, "can angels lie?" You will get different answers, in Jewish religion, no.  In Christian religion, yes, if it is for your own good,and no,the holy angels never lie because that would be a sin. Confusing ain't it?  So when it comes to angels apparently it becomes an article of faith in their truth and trust in your belief system..

I ask this question because at the end of Ghost Story Mab is telling Harry just what she expects of him now that he is her Knight.. As you know Harry isn't very happy with what he is hearing, and neither is Alfred, aka Demonreach.

page 475 Ghost Story

--- Quote ---"To ourpurposes now."
The very ground seemed to quiver, to let out an unthinkable low, deep,angry,growl.
Mab's eyes snapped to Demonreach.  "I have his oath, ancient one.
What he has given is mine by right, and you cannot gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please."
"Damnit," I said tiredly.  "Damnit."
--- End quote ---

Now comes the interesting bit.. Harry hears a calm gentle voice whispering in his ear, Uriel's voice I presume..

--- Quote ---And a voice---a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear,"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
--- End quote ---

By my reading, somebody just called Mab, the Winter Fae Queen, a liar.... So, if it was Uriel calling her that, was he lying? Or is Mab a liar? Harry did indeed feel better after he heard those seven words, so according to some Google research on the question, Uriel could be lying about Mab for Harry's own good.. However if you want to go to the Jewish or other Christian faiths, Uriel, being a holy angel, cannot lie.. So is he mistaken? Did Mab just lie?

Uriel, or did someone, hey it could have been his mother who whispered it, [Margaret is neither angel nor Fae, so she could lie to make her son feel better,] just called Mab a liar?

vincentric:
There was no lie told by either party.

Mab is telling Demonreach that she has a valid claim on Harry as her sworn knight. She wants it known that she has the right to make demands and train Harry as she chooses. But Harry is still under the idea that working for Mab will automatically change him into a warped and evil version of himself. That's caused by his ignorance and the despair that Lasciel inflicted upon him at his lowest point in Changes.

Mab is taking advantage of Harry's despair and allows him to believe that he is fated to change. It will make him a more obedient knight. At no time did Mab say that Harry was going to become an evil version of himself, she just let him believe what he would.

Uriel's word's tell Harry that while Mab may indeed give him orders, he can still preserve himself as his own man. They give him hope to cancel the despair that Lasciel inflicted. Uriel's words point out the self-deception Harry was assuming, not an actual lie by Mab. Mab only becomes upset because Harry immediately becomes rebellious and give her conditions.

Since he became Winter Knight, Mab has never tried to influence Harry with mental magic. She's put him in optionless scenarios or given him difficult tasks and he has accomplished them as best he could in his own way. During Battle Ground she finally acknowledges that his independence makes him " a Knight worth the trouble", which is the closest she'll ever come to an apology and an expression of her respect for him. She still wants him to obey more readily but she now gives him a clear idea of what orders he has leeway on and why.

g33k:
A very interesting post; thank you!

By my understanding, it probably comes down to a matter of perspective, a matter of who -- e.g. who is lying?

Maybe Mab honestly believed what she said; truthfully speaking her honest understanding...

Naah!
This is Mab we're talking about.  "Honest" and "truthful speaking" are not really her cuppa.

OTOH, maybe it's a matter of who she's speaking to.  She was answering Demonreach -- maybe faeries are permitted to lie to such beings?  It isn't "her fault" if Harry "just happens" to overhear her words...  That's a very fae understanding, a very Mab maneuver.  And, critically, you will notice that Demonreach does not argue or contradict Mab; Harry really is Mab's "to shape as [she] please(s)."

But equally -- Mab clearly doesn't want inert clay to harden in the shape she bids.  She was well-pleased with Harry for the trick in Changes, revealed in Ghost Story; and even more pleased in Cold Days when he put a gun to Mab's forehead, and threatened to put her into a cell in Demonreach.  She values -- even relishes -- Harry's independence and initiative.

Mab (as we know) has never let "cannot tell a lie" stop her from deceiving people; not for a moment.

So she told Demonreach the literal truth, Harry is hers to shape... insofar as the "clay" that is Harry is amenable to Mab's shaping.  Just as a sculptor can achieve different things with clay or with wood, Mab's Knight will be different with Harry Dresden than it was with Lloyd Slate.

But, of course, Mab was also deceiving Harry (without -- technically -- lying) into thinking she had full control over his fate.

Uriel's words short-circuited Mab's deception.  Crucially, the seven words did not begin "She lies..." (the rest of it could have been modified to total 7 words, if that had been wanted).

The "lies" were lies that Harry was telling himself -- of being helpless, of being hopeless.  Harry had believed that Mab could change who he was.  To answer the question in the Topic:  the liar was Harry himself.

(I see I was Ninja'ed by @vincentric; but I'll leave mine, above, to agree with / reinforce his)

Mira:

--- Quote ---Mab is telling Demonreach that she has a valid claim on Harry as her sworn knight. She wants it known that she has the right to make demands and train Harry as she chooses. But Harry is still under the idea that working for Mab will automatically change him into a warped and evil version of himself. That's caused by his ignorance and the despair that Lasciel inflicted upon him at his lowest point in Changes.

--- End quote ---

Mab says;

--- Quote ---What he has given is mine by right, and you cannot gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please."

--- End quote ---

I repeat, she says Harry is hers to shape as she pleases, because he has given up his free will to her... Yes, Harry believes it too, that's why he tried to kill himself.  That's why he says, "damnit" after Mab says he is hers to shape as she pleases.. 

Uriel responds, clearly, no ifs, ands, or buts...

--- Quote ---"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---Mab is taking advantage of Harry's despair and allows him to believe that he is fated to change. It will make him a more obedient knight. At no time did Mab say that Harry was going to become an evil version of himself, she just let him believe what he would.
--- End quote ---

Just what would you call someone who let another person believe the above so you could control him?
At the very least you'd say that this person, in this case, Mab was being very dishonest because she cannot do that and knows that... Or you might say, she is lying by omission if nothing else.. With those lies, i.e. "he was hers to shape as she pleases.." Mab did exactly what Lasciel did, take away Harry's free will to be himself.  Enabling Uriel to step in once more to balance the scales..

As Uriel says;

--- Quote ---"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---Uriel's word's tell Harry that while Mab may indeed give him orders, he can still preserve himself as his own man. They give him hope to cancel the despair that Lasciel inflicted. Uriel's words point out the self-deception Harry was assuming, not an actual lie by Mab. Mab only becomes upset because Harry immediately becomes rebellious and give her conditions.

--- End quote ---

And just how does Uriel do this?  By pointing out to Harry that what Mab is telling him is a complete line of bulls--t, in other words, lies.. When Harry realizes she was lying to him, he can stand up for himself.

--- Quote ---Since he became Winter Knight, Mab has never tried to influence Harry with mental magic. She's put him in optionless scenarios or given him difficult tasks and he has accomplished them as best he could in his own way. During Battle Ground she finally acknowledges that his independence makes him " a Knight worth the trouble", which is the closest she'll ever come to an apology and an expression of her respect for him. She still wants him to obey more readily but she now gives him a clear idea of what orders he has leeway on and why.
--- End quote ---

Mab didn't have to use any mind magic on Harry, the lies were enough because he believed them. He believed them so well that with a little nudging from a fallen angel he was willing to die before he became her monster. 

Mira:

--- Quote ---OTOH, maybe it's a matter of who she's speaking to.  She was answering Demonreach -- maybe faeries are permitted to lie to such beings?  It isn't "her fault" if Harry "just happens" to overhear her words...  That's a very fae understanding, a very Mab maneuver.  And, critically, you will notice that Demonreach does not argue or contradict Mab; Harry really is Mab's "to shape as [she] please(s)."

--- End quote ---

Oh how very "Mab" don't you think?  Technically she can claim that since she is telling this to Demonreach and not Harry she isn't lying.. Maybe she forgot that somewhere in the ether sits an archangel that's been around the block a heck of a lot longer than she has, and knows perfectly well who those lies were intended for, and called her out on it.

--- Quote ---Mab (as we know) has never let "cannot tell a lie" stop her from deceiving people; not for a moment.
--- End quote ---
And a deception is dishonest by any other name,is still a lie..

--- Quote ---But, of course, Mab was also deceiving Harry (without -- technically -- lying) into thinking she had full control over his fate.

But, of course, Mab was also deceiving Harry (without -- technically -- lying) into thinking she had full control over his fate.

Uriel's words short-circuited Mab's deception.  Crucially, the seven words did not begin "She lies..."

The "lies" were lies that Harry was telling himself -- of being helpless, of being hopeless.  Harry had believed that Mab could change who he was; he was lying to himself.
   Crucially, the seven words did not begin "She lies..."

The "lies" were lies that Harry was telling himself -- of being helpless, of being hopeless.  Harry had believed that Mab could change who he was; he was lying to himself.
 
--- End quote ---

Did Uriel really have to say she lies? Mab was the only one in the cave who said Harry was hers to shape any way she pleases. She didn't dance around that fact, and Harry believes her because he believes that the Fae cannot lie.  And as we know a lie told often enough and loud enough will eventually be believed.  Harry wasn't lying to himself, because he had no other "truth" than lie that Mab had told him.. He was hers to shape as she pleased.. This is what a very good con-artist does, get the victim or object of their dishonesty to believe the untruth, then never correct them.  Thus the falsehood is the fault of victim or object of it because they were then "lying to themselves."

--- Quote ---But, of course, Mab was also deceiving Harry (without -- technically -- lying) into thinking she had full control over his fate.

Uriel's words short-circuited Mab's deception. 

 
--- End quote ---
They did, without them Mab would never have corrected Harry of his misconception, ever the good con-artist.
 Just Googled how deception and lying differ... Interesting and very Mab;

--- Quote ---Is deception the same from lying?
Lying differs from deception in two important respects. First, in order to lie, one must make a false statement. Deception does not require that one make a false statement or make any statement at all. True statements can be deceptive and some forms of deception do not involve making statements.
--- End quote ---

Satan is also the great deceiver, Uriel knows a bit about that, and had no problem calling out Mab for deceiving Harry.. In other words, Mab is a dishonest bitch even if she cannot tell a lie.. ::)

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