The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 23, 2023, 10:52:52 PM --- ... Mab was the only one in the cave who said Harry was hers to shape any way she pleases ...
--- End quote ---
Nope.
Harry was lying too; lying to himself, there in the cave.
He had been lying to himself since before he decided to take up the WK-Mantle.
Harry believed that being the Winter Knight -- being Mab's WK -- was a one-way ticket to becoming a monster.
If he hadn't believed it, he wouldn't have arranged his own death: he was protecting his friends from the monster he "knew" he would become.
That wasn't even Lasciel's lie, that was all Harry. Lasciel just pushed him into accepting a plan that called for him to explicitly kill himself, that he deserved it because "it's all your fault, Harry."
--- Quote from: Mira on October 23, 2023, 10:52:52 PM --- ... and Harry believes her because he believes that the Fae cannot lie. And as we know a lie told often enough and loud enough will eventually be believed ...
--- End quote ---
That's what Harry believed from before the cave, before Ghost Story; from at least as far back as Changes; my guess is that seeing Lloyd Slate atop Arctis Tor may have been the beginning of that? As you say, he had repeated it in his own head -- "not becoming a monster" -- so often, he believed it. It was how he kept himself from embracing Lasciel fully, how he kept himself out of Mab's clutches for so long.
Mab simply said something that Harry -- who already thought this -- never examined more-deeply to look for hidden implications & faerie deceptions. Why look for deception in something you already know is true??!?
--- Quote from: Mira on October 23, 2023, 10:52:52 PM ---... In other words, Mab is a dishonest bitch even if she cannot tell a lie.. ::)
--- End quote ---
Well... yeah. She's Mab.
Say that to her face and (click to show/hide)she'd likely take it as a complement.
OTOH, call her a lying bitch and (click to show/hide)she's liable to freeze your eyeballs.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Nope.
Harry was lying too; lying to himself, there in the cave.
He had been lying to himself since before he decided to take up the WK-Mantle.
Harry believed that being the Winter Knight -- being Mab's WK -- was a one-way ticket to becoming a monster.
If he hadn't believed it, he wouldn't have arranged his own death: he was protecting his friends from the monster he "knew" he would become.
That wasn't even Lasciel's lie, that was all Harry. Lasciel just pushed him into accepting a plan that called for him to explicitly kill himself, that he deserved it because "it's all your fault, Harry."
--- End quote ---
But it is a little more complicated than that, you are leaving out Slate in this. Harry saw what he was, what he had become, he didn't want to become that. While Harry has a lot of confidence in his will, his strength, in a lot of ways, he isn't the most confident. Was Harry really lying to himself? In many ways he wasn't, we have seen in Cold Days his struggle with the mantle of the Winter Knight.
Actually, if Harry had been telling himself that he could control the mantel and that Mab wouldn't do her best to turn him into her monster, he would have been lying to himself. Yes, he has found a way to physically control it, but the struggle remains, it doesn't help that Mab sends him mixed signals, on one hand she says at last a knight worthy of the mantle, but at the same time she also wants to shape him the way that she wants. Harry knew the least bad choice to save little Maggie was to become Mab's knight, but in his injured and weakened state he was not confident that he wouldn't become another Slate.. After his daughter was safe, that's the last thing he wanted, so with nudging from Lasciel, "and it's all your fault!" He arranged his suicide.
Eb tried to tell Harry that he could be knight and remain himself, but Eb hadn't gone through the ritual that Harry had to to become knight. It wasn't Harry telling Harry that he was Mab's to shape as she pleased after he woke up in the cave, it was Mab telling Harry... "Lies," as Uriel pointed out to him.
--- Quote ---That's what Harry believed from before the cave, before Ghost Story; from at least as far back as Changes; my guess is that seeing Lloyd Slate atop Arctis Tor may have been the beginning of that? As you say, he had repeated it in his own head -- "not becoming a monster" -- so often, he believed it. It was how he kept himself from embracing Lasciel fully, how he kept himself out of Mab's clutches for so long.
--- End quote ---
Since there was no example to the contrary in the Winter Court, Harry cannot be blamed for believing it. Mab also thought it was to her advantage for him to believe it as well. Her nature is to control, so she never did anything to correct the impression Harry had of the Winter Knight.. In other words dishonest, because she thought it was to her advantage to have a knight she could control. To be fair one of her motives for being dishonest about that was the fact that Slate had become so corrupt that she had no control over him and he ultimately betrayed her.
--- Quote ---Mab simply said something that Harry -- who already thought this -- never examined more-deeply to look for hidden implications & faerie deceptions. Why look for deception in something you already know is true??!?
--- End quote ---
Which goes back to the old saying, "a lie told often enough, long enough, and loud enough eventually is seen as true.." From the time a barely sixteen year old Harry went to his Fae godmother for help to get rid of Justin, it had been drilled into his head that the Fae cannot lie.
From the time he was sixteen he was enthralled to first Lea and then Mab because of the three promises he had foolishly made. Let's not forget Harry's real fear of his godmother in the earlier books. He had learned it was foolish to try and bargain with the Fae, but almost no understanding of their deceptions.
--- Quote ---Well... yeah. She's Mab.
Say that to her face and
(click to show/hide)
she'd likely take it as a complement
.
OTOH, call her a lying bitch and
(click to show/hide)
she's liable to freeze your eyeballs
.
--- End quote ---
Which is at the crux of Harry's dilemma.. On one hand Mab likes to be called out on things and a knight who will stand up to her, on the other it totally pisses her off that he does. Let's not forget Kringle's warning to Harry in Cold Days.
page 505 Cold Days;
--- Quote ---Kringle straightened, and his fierce smile became somehow satisfied.
"Aye?" like to live dangerously do you?" He leaned a little closer and lowered his voice. "Never let her make you cringe---but never challenge her pride wizard. I don't know exactly what passed between you, but I suspect that if it had been witnessed by another, she would break you to pieces. I've seen it before. Terrible pride in that creature. She will never bend it."
--- End quote ---
Harry is trying to walk a ice covered tightrope across the Grand Canyon on a very windy day. Serving Mab, advising Mab, and being true to himself at the same time will not be easy, and apparently very dangerous. Perhaps only a star born wizard can even hope to come close to succeeding.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 24, 2023, 01:36:51 PM --- ... Actually, if Harry had been telling himself that he could control the mantel and that Mab wouldn't do her best to turn him into her monster, he would have been lying to himself. Yes, he has found a way to physically control it, but the struggle remains, it doesn't help that Mab sends him mixed signals, on one hand she says at last a knight worthy of the mantle, but at the same time she also wants to shape him the way that she wants ...
--- End quote ---
It's not a simple either/or.
Mab may crush Harry's resistance. Harry may resist indefinitely.
Both are true possibilities; neither is guaranteed.
The thing is: Mab has to try to crush Harry... both because she is Mab & that's who she is & how she rolls; but also because she knows the pressures coming to bear on Harry -- that if they hit him unprepared they are likely to break him.
Just as her first murder-attempt (during his recuperation) was milder than the last... she has been training him, strengthening him.
Mira:
--- Quote ---It's not a simple either/or.
Mab may crush Harry's resistance. Harry may resist indefinitely.
Both are true possibilities; neither is guaranteed.
The thing is: Mab has to try to crush Harry... both because she is Mab & that's who she is & how she rolls; but also because she knows the pressures coming to bear on Harry -- that if they hit him unprepared they are likely to break him.
Just as her first murder-attempt (during his recuperation) was milder than the last... she has been training him, strengthening him.
--- End quote ---
None of that is the point however, Mab can crush away all she wants, but in the end Harry is still his own man with his own free will.. Her saying different was a lie as Uriel pointed out.
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 25, 2023, 03:50:58 AM ---None of that is the point however, Mab can crush away all she wants, but in the end Harry is still his own man with his own free will.. Her saying different was a lie as Uriel pointed out.
--- End quote ---
But that's the point you refuse to see. Mab never said that Harry had lost his free will, she said she was free to shape him and Harry, in his despair, had convinced himself he couldn't resist. Uriel's words didn't correct a lie by Mab, but Harry's own self-deception. Yes Mab was being deceptive as hell, but she wasn't technically lying.
The Fae cannot tell a direct lie but have taken deceptive speech to a high artform. It's one of their greatest pleasures and a mark of status among them. And Mab, as their Queen, stands at the pinnacle. That's why Mab was so pleased with Harry's attempted suicide. By outwitting her (because she needed Bonnie and Demonreach's aid to counter him), he raised his status in her eyes. It forced her to up her game and that competitive streak is one of the greatest drives of Winter. She didn't even punish him for it because it was a private interaction.
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