The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?
Mira:
--- Quote ---But that's the point you refuse to see. Mab never said that Harry had lost his free will, she said she was free to shape him and Harry, in his despair, had convinced himself he couldn't resist. Uriel's words didn't correct a lie by Mab, but Harry's own self-deception. Yes Mab was being deceptive as hell, but she wasn't technically lying.
--- End quote ---
So you are saying that Uriel wasn't telling Harry the truth when he said that it was lies that Mab was saying? Uriel didn't say Mab was deceptive as hell, he didn't say technically Mab wasn't lying, Uriel simply said, "Lies, she cannot change who you are.."
Also what you refuse to see is when a Fae Queen says;
--- Quote ---"I have his oath, ancient one.
What he has given is mine by right, and you cannot gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please."
--- End quote ---
Especially the last bit, "he is mine to shape as I please." Call it enthrallment, but she is screwing with Harry's free will. Harry believes she has power over his free will to be himself, and Mab confirmed that when she said,"What he has given is mine by right, and you cannot gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please."
That's when Uriel stepped in..
--- Quote ---"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
--- End quote ---
In effect, no she cannot do that..
He was very clear, didn't mince words, Mab was lying.
--- Quote ---The Fae cannot tell a direct lie but have taken deceptive speech to a high artform. It's one of their greatest pleasures and a mark of status among them. And Mab, as their Queen, stands at the pinnacle. That's why Mab was so pleased with Harry's attempted suicide. By outwitting her (because she needed Bonnie and Demonreach's aid to counter him), he raised his status in her eyes. It forced her to up her game and that competitive streak is one of the greatest drives of Winter. She didn't even punish him for it because it was a private interaction.
--- End quote ---
You're wrong there, Mab in fact was very displeased with Harry's attempt, because he was trying to get out of their bargain.. No, she didn't punish him because Uriel called her out on her lie, and Harry told her unless she wanted a mediocre Knight, to let him be himself.. Mab not wanting to look bad, acted pleased, whether she really was or not isn't known yet.
CrusherJen:
My two cents (and it's probably worth about that much, LOL):
One can believe every word they're saying... and still be flat-out wrong. That doesn't mean they're actually, deliberately lying.
In Cold Days, Mab-the-Chessmaster describes Molly's apprenticeship to Harry as a masterful manipulation and exploitation of weakness and need. Because Harry's the narrator, we know that's not how he sees it at all... and yet, from a certain point of view, it's kinda-sorta true. She can't understand Harry's motivations of decency, morality, loyalty, and free will, because she had to cast all that aside a long time ago to do her job. It's a blind spot for her now, something she dismisses as irrelevant. She's not lying about her interpretation of events... but at the end of the day, she's still wrong about Harry. Wrong doesn't equal lie here.
Mab believes completely that she can mold Harry into what she wants him to be as Knight. That's not a lie, because she believes it, but it's still not the complete truth of the matter. Harry can, and does, resist Mab's attempt to reshape him into an emotionless extension of Mab's will... though so far, it's working out fairly well for both of them. Mab's fairly pleased that Harry's growing in both power and political savvy. Maybe she sees that as part of the shaping process? >shrug<
I believe Uriel's words weren't really a direct counter to Mab herself-- they were a balance to what Lasciel said, up to the very number of words used. Lasciel was encouraging Harry to believe everything was all his fault, that he was all out of options, that he was locked into losing himself to Winter and had no hope to resist. I believe those lies, Lasciel's lies, were the ones Uriel was referring to, not Mab's words themselves. Harry internalized and believed Lasciel's version of events, exactly as she'd planned, until Uriel pointed out the weak spot in her arguments in a very concise manner. He pointed directly at the flaw in the one place Harry could best act upon-- resisting Mab. And once Harry realized that he still had options, Lasciel's lies fell apart.
So when Uriel says "Lies," IMHO he wasn't referring to Mab at all, but Lasciel. It would have helped us out if he'd been a lot more specific, but he only had 7 words... ;) ;D ::)
(Credit due to g33k and vincentric earlier, as their posts helped me shape this one.)
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mab believes completely that she can mold Harry into what she wants him to be as Knight. That's not a lie, because she believes it, but it's still not the complete truth of the matter. Harry can, and does, resist Mab's attempt to reshape him into an emotionless extension of Mab's will... though so far, it's working out fairly well for both of them. Mab's fairly pleased that Harry's growing in both power and political savvy. Maybe she sees that as part of the shaping process? >shrug<
--- End quote ---
Not exactly true, just because you believe something doesn't make it true.. I also think that Mab is smart enough to know it isn't true. However with Uriel standing by, she doesn't get away with it.. Uriel doesn't say, "well, Mab really isn't lying because she believes what she says is true, but she is wrong or mistaken about that fact." No, Uriel says, "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are.." Notice that after he says that Mab doesn't try to squirm her way out by moving the goal posts like she usually does when she'd been deceptive.
--- Quote ---So when Uriel says "Lies," IMHO he wasn't referring to Mab at all, but Lasciel. It would have helped us out if he'd been a lot more specific, but he only had 7 words... ;) ;D ::)
--- End quote ---
While I'd agree that Lasciel was the reason for part of what Uriel was saying. However what he said was;
--- Quote ---"Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."
--- End quote ---
If he didn't mean Mab, he wouldn't have said, Mab.
CrusherJen:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 25, 2023, 07:20:00 PM ---Not exactly true, just because you believe something doesn't make it true.
--- End quote ---
Yes. But just because something isn't true doesn't make it a lie. It's only a lie if there's a deliberate intention to deceive. Say Alice walks into a room and spots a cardboard box on the table. It's got "M&Ms 12 pieces" printed on the sides, so Alice says "oh cool, it's candy!" When she opens the box, she finds packing material... and a couple of Dresden Files paperbacks inside. Was she wrong? Yes. Did Alice lie? No-- she had every reason to believe there were M&Ms inside the box. She didn't have enough information for it to be a lie. Wrong does not always equal lie.
Mab's got a lot of reasons to believe she can get what she wants from Harry, exactly as she wants it. She's a master manipulator, and she's had ample practice in bending others to her will. Because she believes there's no other road to what she wants, she's not lying when she offers Harry two options: "do as I say, or die." But Mab is wrong. Harry's found a third option-- his stubborn method of cooperation-within-limits is still giving her the needed results while maintaining his own free will. Mab spoke from a very narrow viewpoint which didn't allow other possibilities, or a full understanding of Harry's determination. It's arrogant, short-sighted, and flat-out wrong, but there was no deception involved, and therefore no lie.
Looking at what Uriel said, there is a difference between
--- Quote ---Lies, Mab cannot change who you are.
--- End quote ---
and the actual text from the book:
--- Quote ---Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.
--- End quote ---
The comma connects the two statements, making them part of the same concept. But Uriel's comment is two separate sentences, making the relation between them more ambiguous. "Lies" on its own tells us somebody's lying, but it doesn't say who, largely because Uriel had no words to spare. But since the narrative specifically places these seven words as a balance and counterargument to Lasciel's seven words, it's not out-of-line to view them as a direct reference to Lasciel's speech, not Mab's.
--- Quote ---If he didn't mean Mab, he wouldn't have said, Mab.
--- End quote ---
And if he wanted to say Mab was lying, he could have said, "Mab lies about changing who you are." It would have nicely fit the seven-word pattern. But he didn't. He simply said, "Mab cannot change who you are." That in and of itself only implies that Mab's claims were wrong, not true... but again, wrong does not necessarily equal lie. And while one can argue that as the White God's spymaster, Uriel might not just come out and say what he thinks directly... I can't believe he didn't deliberately craft his statement for maximum effect. Harry (and the readers) are meant to consider Uriel's words very carefully.
Unfortunately, it's still ambiguous enough for readers to see different things in those words. I see it as Lasciel lying, you see it as Mab lying. We'll probably get a more clear answer eventually, since we haven't seen the last of Uriel, Lasciel or Mab yet, but until then, I'm thinking it's YMMV.
vincentric:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 25, 2023, 07:20:00 PM ---
If he didn't mean Mab, he wouldn't have said, Mab.
--- End quote ---
But he didn't mean Mab. Right before Uriel sends Harry back to his body, he shows him a replay of Lasciel's lie and specifically says that he is only allowed to counter it with seven words of his own. Lasciel's lie convinced Harry that his self-deception about Winter would make him eventually fall to evil and caused his suicide. Uriel's words revealed the truth of the situation. That Harry was capable of remaining himself while serving Mab. The lies were Harry's to begin with, created by his own fears and lack of understanding and reinforced by a perfectly timed and worded attack by a Fallen Angel.
Mab as a character has taken the one of the biggest development arcs of the series. But she hasn't really changed. Never once has she asked Harry to perform an act that wasn't beneficial to humanity, and she's never instructed him to do anything particularly cruel or evil. What's changed is Harry's (and thus our) understanding of her. His preconceptions painted her as an evil Fae queen, the personification of malicious random cruelty and she has not said word one to change his mind. But when he's examined her acts and words in retrospect, he's slowly changed his opinion. She became a dangerous force of nature to be avoided, then his second-best option after Uriel then a hard-ass boss and finally a lone warrior fighting the good fight with extreme methods. Harry's knowledge and maturation is what's changed how we see mab.
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