The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?
Mira:
--- Quote from: Dina on October 28, 2023, 12:09:30 PM ---Of course Mab can be wrong. That is what JB said. But that is not lying. If you know what you are saying is not true, you are lying. If you do not know that, you are just wrong. Mab cannot lie but she can be wrong.
--- End quote ---
That's where it gets complicated, I think it is more of a point of view, it isn't a black and white issue as the Fae would have you believe. If you believe you are not lying then it isn't a lie.. But Mab can be wrong, or not telling the truth from the other person's point of view. You have to be constantly aware of that fact when you bargain with the Fae, that's why you usually lose when you do. I think that is what Eb was trying to warn Harry about, in other words, don't fall for the she cannot tell a lie thing because she could very well be wrong, or just not telling the truth.
Mab should know by now what the rules governing the free will of mortals are, right? However that doesn't stop her from saying that Harry is hers to shape as she pleases. Don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to say that Mab was simply mistaken? Or is it more like what Eb said, "trying to lie," to get Harry to go along with her. Uriel's response is very clear, "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are." You can bring Lasciel into it if you want, but Uriel was responding to what Mab said, and he names Mab. He doesn't say Mab is wrong about that or mistaken about that, he says, lies. I wish that Mab had responded directly to Uriel, but she didn't. I suspect her reply would be that she knows Harry and as long as he believes her, it isn't a lie and she can control him... Twisted, yes, but from her point of view not lying.. Simply because up until the point where Uriel calls her out, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are," Harry believed it. What Mab had said wasn't accidental, nor is she ignorant of the rules regarding the free will of mortals, however she did try and twist that as much as she could without crossing the line, to get Harry to believe her, and get her way.
CrusherJen:
--- Quote ---Mab did deceive Harry about what the plan was, he and Molly confront her and Marcone.
--- End quote ---
Did she? I think she complied with the terms of the counter-offer Harry gave her when he became Winter Knight: he'd do what she wanted him to do, as long as he got free will in how it got done. Mab made sure he understood what her intentions were, and that was all she was obligated to do, by Harry's own request.
What is Mab always trying to get Harry to do? She says it directly in my quotation: "think." She wants him to look at every angle of a situation, consider all the possibilities, and be ready to act upon whatever opportunities come up. She's not going to spoon-feed Harry every single detail of her and Marcone's plan-- that would be inconsistent with her character as it's been established in the books. She expects him to figure it out. She said so, right there in the elevator. And Harry's been working with her long enough to know how Mab operates. He knows she's always got intricate plans within plans and counters for any contingencies. So if he needed wanted more information in advance, why didn't he ask for it during the setup phase of the caper?
--- Quote ---Mab should know by now what the rules governing the free will of mortals are, right? However that doesn't stop her from saying that Harry is hers to shape as she pleases. Don't you think it is a bit of a stretch to say that Mab was simply mistaken?
--- End quote ---
No, I don't. I'm satisfied by the Word of Jim that said she was wrong. Mab isn't infallible; she failed to prevent Maeve and Lea from getting Nfected, after all. She can, and does, make mistakes. I also like Dina's take on it:
--- Quote ---Still, I keep my interpretation. Mab did not want to change Harry into a popsicle or a monster. She can shape him in a way that pleases her...which is basically allowing Harry be Harry. That pleases her. She is absolutely trying to deceive both Alfred and Harry into believing that she could change Harry into a monster or a bad guy or whatever, but she did not really say that. Uriel intervened because Harry was interpreting those words in the way Mab wanted.
--- End quote ---
Mab has made it clear more than once that Harry's shaping up to be a useful Knight, despite her annoyance at his occasional acts of disrespect. She's proud of his actions during Battle Ground. She's getting what she needs from him, so she's got no logical reason to interfere with that... and Mab is very, very logical. But she's not going to come out and say that directly, because the fae love their word games, and they expect anyone dealing with them to be smart enough to keep up with those games. Harry's getting better at it... and that pleases her too.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Mab has made it clear more than once that Harry's shaping up to be a useful Knight, despite her annoyance at his occasional acts of disrespect. She's proud of his actions during Battle Ground. She's getting what she needs from him, so she's got no logical reason to interfere with that... and Mab is very, very logical. But she's not going to come out and say that directly, because the fae love their word games, and they expect anyone dealing with them to be smart enough to keep up with those games.
--- End quote ---
Those events are after the events of Ghost Story when Harry woke up from his coma. It's the events in Changes and Ghost Story that this post is about. After Uriel wised him up Harry let Mab know on no uncertain terms that he was his own man. As you say, the Fae expect anyone dealing with them to be smart enough to keep up with their games. In other words, they can con and scam all they want, in a word, deceive, and if not seen through, then it's on the person trying to bargain with them.
--- Quote ---Did she? I think she complied with the terms of the counter-offer Harry gave her when he became Winter Knight: he'd do what she wanted him to do, as long as he got free will in how it got done. Mab made sure he understood what her intentions were, and that was all she was obligated to do, by Harry's own request.
--- End quote ---
No, she didn't, she and Marcone schemed on their plan for vengeance for some time and said nothing to Harry about it and innocent people got hurt.. Harry and Molly confronted them about it..
Then Mab says page 444 Skin Game
--- Quote ---Then Mab finally spoke, her voice sepulchral. "Do you have a point, my knight?"
"I wanted you to know that I knew," I said. Then I turned to Marcone. "There were people involved in this affair."
--- End quote ---
Then Harry brings out the diamonds for Marcone to pay as a wereguild. And Marcone asks what happens if he disagrees? Harry then puts Mab in a position where she has to agree or have her name disgraced.
So Marcone agreed as a favor to Mab, Mab didn't really have a choice in the matter and was most displeased.
page 446
--- Quote ---Mab was far too contained to give any reaction to the resolution of the situation, beyond a very, very small nod to Marcone. But she regarded me with a look of displeasure that promised me a reckoning later. Molly got the same glare."
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---No, I don't. I'm satisfied by the Word of Jim that said she was wrong. Mab isn't infallible; she failed to prevent Maeve and Lea from getting Nfected, after all. She can, and does, make mistakes. I also like Dina's take on it:
--- End quote ---
What does the failure of preventing Maeve and Lea from getting infected have to do with her not knowing what the rules regarding free will are? The weakness in Dina's argument isn't that maybe Mab wanted to change Harry into a better person.. That isn't the point, the point of free will is it is Harry's choice as to how he shapes himself, not Mab's choice for good or ill.. Given what Harry saw of Slate, he was convinced that he didn't want to turn out like him, he was also convinced that Mab wasn't going to give him a choice in the matter, but to turn out like him.
CrusherJen:
--- Quote ---What does the failure of preventing Maeve and Lea from getting infected have to do with her not knowing what the rules regarding free will are?
--- End quote ---
The point is to prove that Mab can be wrong, and Mab can make mistakes, rather than assuming everything she says is just lie after lie. WOJ itself said she was wrong, she believed what she was saying, she did not lie. If she believed what she said, then she believed her understanding of the rules regarding free will was the truth. Just because she was ignorant of the greater cosmic truth Uriel shared does not make her a liar.
--- Quote ---she and Marcone schemed on their plan for vengeance for some time and said nothing to Harry about it and innocent people got hurt.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, that tends to happen when Denarians who have no value for human life decide to take action. Neither of us can reasonably prove that it would or could have been avoided if Mab had gone against her nature and spoon-fed Harry every infinitesimal detail of their plotting.
The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.
Edit to add: I just had a thought. The anger probably wasn't just that Mab got played, it was also because of the implied damage to Winter's reputation, which is one of Mab's responsibilities to uphold as Queen. I can see her approving the use of fae-style manipulation in other matters, but any threat to Winter is serious business.
Why do some of the best thoughts only come after hitting the Post button? >:( :-[ ::)
g33k:
--- Quote from: CrusherJen on October 28, 2023, 10:16:04 PM ---... The missing link here is, Harry is citing the lack of information as a mechanism to providing weregild for the families of those killed... which is a handy little deception of his, not Mab's. She's just pissed that Harry succeeded in manipulating her right where he wanted her. The player got played, herself.
--- End quote ---
Also: let's give some props to Harry's apt pupil Molly, who plays the "I am Winter" card to trump Mab and deliver Christmas Cheer, in the "Christmas Eve / Good People" duology.
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