The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?
Mira:
--- Quote from: CrusherJen on October 27, 2023, 06:10:18 PM ---Considering Eb is also so blinded by rage against White Court vamps that he snubbed one grandson and nearly killed the other one because of it, I wouldn't take anything Eb says without a healthy heaping of salt. He is not an unbiased, objective source for information.
Eb's also not exactly the poster child for "free will," since if he had his way, Harry would abandon his daughter and turn his back on Thomas. He has his own agenda for Harry, which may or may not be linked to White Council politics... and there's a lot we don't know yet about those wizards' intrigues.
Edit to add: Let's not forget, Eb perpetrated one of the biggest lies (by omission) in the whole series-- he neglected to tell Harry they were related... for years. So he isn't above deceptions of his own when he feels it's necessary. "Pot, kettle, all day long."
--- End quote ---
As the saying goes, "takes one to know one.." Eb is no angel, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about this, or he is a liar or deliberately lying to Harry. He told Harry that Mab couldn't mess with his free will, but said it wouldn't stop her from trying.. His warning, "They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
Harry did fall for it, that's why he suicided rather than submit to Mab and become her monster. He was going to fall for it again in the cave when she said he was hers to do with as she pleased.. Which was patently untrue, or a lie... As Uriel points out," Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."
Actually Harry sort of figures out something else a few pages before during the conversation he has with Uriel before he comes back.
page469- 470 Ghost Story;
--- Quote ---..."it doesn't make sense."
"Why not?"
"Because it doesn't have anything to do with balancing the scales of the Fallen lying to me," I said. "You haven't done any fortune cookie whispers into my head, have you?"
"No," he said. "Not yet."
"Well, that's what I mean," I said. "The scale stillisn't balanced. And I don't think you send people back for kicks."
Uriel regarded me pleasantly. He said nothing.
"So you did it for a reason. Something you couldn't have gotten with your seven words."
"Perhaps it was to balance the situation with Molly," he said.
I snorted. "Yeah. I bet all the time you go around solving your problems one by one, in neat little rows. I bet you never, ever try to hit two birds with one stone."
--- End quote ---
Interesting, we also know from what Mab says when Harry wakes up Uriel had some specific lessons he wanted Harry to learn and was willing to risk it by the soul walk about. Harry guesses the seven words weren't exactly about balancing the scales with Lasciel, Uriel doesn't argue that point and says maybe to balance with what happened to Molly.. Harry isn't fully buying that one either.. The soul walk about did do a lot for Harry except for one thing, when he woke up from his coma, he still believed that Mab could completely control him, in effect take his free will. So when she said that he was hers to do with what she wanted, he responded with a,"damnit.." Because he still believed it.. That's when Uriel steps in with those seven words... " Lies, Mab cannot change who you are." Shattering the perception in an instant, Harry gleefully counts them, 1234567! Then he confronts Mab because he now feels free to.. That was always the purpose of those seven words, Uriel had to also balance the lies that Mab told Harry.
CrusherJen:
--- Quote ---As the saying goes, "takes one to know one.." Eb is no angel, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about this, or he is a liar or deliberately lying to Harry.
--- End quote ---
But he did lie to Harry, deliberately. He knew Harry was desperately lonely and craving a connection, and he still withheld the knowledge that he was Harry's grandfather, and he let Harry think he had no family for twenty years, if the timeline is accurate. So we know Eb isn't always truthful.
And even if he thinks he's truthful, he can still be wrong... like when he lost control of his power and almost killed Harry in their fight. If Harry hadn't thought ahead and gotten help from one of those "deceptive, untrustworthy, lying fae", he wouldn't be alive after their battle. So no, Eb's not some perfect, unbiased, infallible source of all knowledge of the Dresden Files world, and I don't believe we should take him as one. I think there's been more than enough evidence in the books to acknowledge that.
As for the rest of it... yes, Uriel's words are a many-birds-one-stone solution, but the root of the situation is still Lasciel reinforcing Harry's fears and doubts with her seven words, solidifying them into "facts" in his mind. IMHO, those are the lies Uriel is countering. Consider Archimedes' words: "Give me a place to stand, and a lever long enough, and I will move the world." Mab's claim that she could change Harry, which she fully believed was true, was the place to stand, the lever was Harry's considerable willpower, and thus Lasciel's lies were uprooted and destroyed.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 27, 2023, 01:41:30 PM --- ...Eb warns Harry in Changes that yes, the Fae will try to lie to get control
...
What is Eb saying here? The Fae will try and lie to get what they want! ...
--- End quote ---
No; Eb is speaking in general terms about:
--- Quote --- ... these dark beings and powers ...
--- End quote ---
Not specifically about the Fae. And he is speaking casually, imprecisely, to include both "lying" and "deceiving."
He's trying to communicate with Harry, trying to convince Harry that a deal (with Mab) isn't giving in to monster-hood.
And it is absolutely correct that most of them (including the fae!) will try to "psych you out" and make you think you have no choice, when you do.
The_Sibelis:
There is a literal woj on this. Mab didn't lie, because she believed it to be true when she said it. Through empirical evidence of what, 800+ years as Mab her knight is hers to shape as she pleases? She CAN'T lie. She can think things are true that are not. Not so subtle difference. Lying is an intention, a choice she cannot make
Mira:
--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on October 27, 2023, 10:15:24 PM ---There is a literal woj on this. Mab didn't lie, because she believed it to be true when she said it. Through empirical evidence of what, 800+ years as Mab her knight is hers to shape as she pleases? She CAN'T lie. She can think things are true that are not. Not so subtle difference. Lying is an intention, a choice she cannot make
--- End quote ---
Then why did Uriel say it was lies? Can you find the WOJ on this exactly? I am curious as to just what he says. What is the evidence that Mab's Knight is hers to shape as she pleases? That wasn't the case with Slate, she didn't shape him and he ended up betraying her. Yeah, Maeve chose him, but should that make that much difference?
Also interesting that now it is Eb that is dishonest and maybe even lying to Harry about the Fae trying to lie to him to control him?
--- Quote ---No; Eb is speaking in general terms about:
Quote
... these dark beings and powers ...
Not specifically about the Fae. And he is speaking casually, imprecisely, to include both "lying" and "deceiving."
He's trying to communicate with Harry, trying to convince Harry that a deal (with Mab) isn't giving in to monster-hood.
--- End quote ---
In answer to that question, who exactly had Harry in their power in that moment? Who had Harry sworn an oath to in order to save his child? Who is called the Queen of Darkness? What were they talking about in the preceding chapter? Bargains with the Fae, Eb admits he has made some himself in the past.. So no, I seriously doubt that Eb was talking in a casual way to Harry about this.. Nothing casual about what Eb said, he was doing his best to reassure Harry..
From Google
--- Quote ---Is it lying if you think you're telling the truth?
It is not. A lie is a knowing misstatement of the truth with the intent to deceive. Both states of mind are required. If you genuinely think you are telling the truth, then you are not lying, but you may be a clueless idiot.
--- End quote ---
Is Mab a clueless idiot? I think not, I don't believe for one second that she doesn't know she cannot completely shape and control her knight, but it did not stop her from trying did it? That's why she so pleased with Harry, because he called her on it... If she believed it was the truth that she was saying, she would have turned Harry into a popsicle.
--- Quote ---But he did lie to Harry, deliberately. He knew Harry was desperately lonely and craving a connection, and he still withheld the knowledge that he was Harry's grandfather, and he let Harry think he had no family for twenty years, if the timeline is accurate. So we know Eb isn't always truthful.
--- End quote ---
We don't know why, do we? So Eb isn't always truthful, but Mab is a deceiver... In Skin Game she neglected to tell Harry what her and Marcone's real plan was.
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