The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Uriel's Seven Words, So Who is the Liar?
Dina:
This is a very interesting thread, and thanks Mira for the original post.
I am more or less in agreement with Vincentric, and with some things other people said, but I thought something else.
Mab says:
"He is mine to shape as I please"
That is important for me. She did not say "I can shape Harry in any thing one can imagine" or "I can shape Harry in anything against his will". She said she could shape him as she pleased. So, if she will never be pleased changing who Harry really truly was, there is no conflict. She can shape Harry in a better version of himself, I guess, but not changing him. For example. He won't stop caring for her humanity, that who he is, but perhaps he learns how to be subtler instead of explosive. The point for me is what Uriel means withe "who you are". I think he means Harry's core, not the details.
And in my opinion, Vin is right, he is telling Harry that what HE was thinking were lies, not Mab's words but Harry's interpretation of them.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Dina on October 26, 2023, 12:11:07 AM ---This is a very interesting thread, and thanks Mira for the original post.
I am more or less in agreement with Vincentric, and with some things other people said, but I thought something else.
Mab says:
"He is mine to shape as I please"
That is important for me. She did not say "I can shape Harry in any thing one can imagine" or "I can shape Harry in anything against his will". She said she could shape him as she pleased. So, if she will never be pleased changing who Harry really truly was, there is no conflict. She can shape Harry in a better version of himself, I guess, but not changing him. For example. He won't stop caring for her humanity, that who he is, but perhaps he learns how to be subtler instead of explosive. The point for me is what Uriel means withe "who you are". I think he means Harry's core, not the details.
And in my opinion, Vin is right, he is telling Harry that what HE was thinking were lies, not Mab's words but Harry's interpretation of them.
--- End quote ---
Good to hear from you Dina. The key word here is, "lies."
At the end of Changes, Eb, in an attempt to comfort Harry about becoming Winter Knight, and or warn him, wise him up, says pretty much what Uriel said in Ghost Story. The last part of it is the most interesting part and again, goes against what we are told about the Fae.
page 426 Changes
--- Quote ---"She might lean on you pretty hard. Try to put you in a box you don't want to be in. But don't let her. She can't take away your will. Even if she can make it seem that way." He sighed again, but there was bedrock in his voice. "That's one thing all these dark beings and powers can't do. Take away you ability to choose. They can kill you. They can make you do things--but they can't make you choose to do 'em.They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
--- End quote ---
What did Mab do? When Harry was at his most vulnerable physically, just waking up from a near fatal coma, not thinking with any clarity at all, Mab takes full advantage! Yes, she is very aware that Harry is listening, as she tells old Demonreach [agree with g33k, a way for her to claim that she didn't lie to a mortal] that Harry is hers to do with as she pleases, to shape as she pleases. In effect taking Harry's free will away, not because she actually can, but able to, because Harry believes her.
Eb warned Harry, that Mab wants him to believe he has no free will. " They almost always try to lie to you
about that. Don't fall for it." The seven words from Uriel, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
So yes, Mab did lie.. She is very clever about it though, she is the ultimate con-man. She is a deceiver, the difference between a liar and a deceiver found in Google;
--- Quote --- Is deception the same from lying?
Lying differs from deception in two important respects. First, in order to lie, one must make a false statement. Deception does not require that one make a false statement or make any statement at all. True statements can be deceptive and some forms of deception do not involve making statements.
--- End quote ---
All of which sums up Mab very well, also any snake oil salesman that ever lived. A good scammer
will tell you just the right amount of truth so you will buy the lie that they are selling. When they get called on it, they blame you for being stupid enough to fall for it. Which is very Mab, how many times has she told Harry that he should have known, or he heard what he wanted to hear, so don't blame her, because the Fae cannot lie.
Mab knows she cannot take Harry's free will, but that doesn't stop her from trying.
Harry should know that Mab cannot take his free will away, but he has also been taught and told over and over again that the Fae cannot lie, and Mab just said he was hers to do with, as she pleased.
He is also weak physically and not thinking clearly.
Mab, the ultimate scammer is ready to take full advantage of the above facts to get Harry to believe he has surrendered his free will to her when he became her knight.. As Eb warned," They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
Harry was about to fall for it in his weakened state,he believed, hence his response, "damnit!"
Uriel then stepped in with the seven words, "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."
Harry's eyes are opened to the truth that he always knew or should have known, that Mab cannot take his free will..
The fact remains that Mab in that weak moment tried to con him into believing she could take his free will. And yes, as Eb warned she would, and Uriel confirmed,she tried to lie about that very thing. ::)
What is more Mab, or I guess since he is writing the story, Jim has most of us readers believing the scam as well.. Most of us, the readers, have totally bought into the idea that the Fae cannot lie. No matter how many times Mab or Lea have moved the goal posts on a bargain, or twisted the facts to make us believe the mortal should have known better.. It's gotta be true, because the Fae cannot lie... :-\
vincentric:
I'm not trying to convince anyone that Mab is not deceptive. She is. She's proud of it. Deception is one of the Fae's favorite pastimes and Mab plays better and harder than anyone.
But how can you post the difference between lying and deception and then insist they are identical? The intent and outcomes may be the same, but they are technically two different acts. Therefore, Mab can be deceptive with every word she speaks, but never tell a lie. Since there is a difference between the two, she can be guilty of one and not the other in a purely legalese sense.
And when the text says, "The Fae cannot tell a direct Lie." It is meant in the most technical and literal sense. No one has ever said, " The Fae cannot deceive you."
Dealing with the Fae is meant to be tricky and dangerous. One should examine any deal with elemental magical creatures for hidden clauses or double meanings and always remember that " There is no spirit of the Law involved, only the Letter."
Mira:
--- Quote ---And when the text says, "The Fae cannot tell a direct Lie." It is meant in the most technical and literal sense. No one has ever said, " The Fae cannot deceive you."
--- End quote ---
The text also says, that the Fae can lie or will try to lie to deceive...
Uriel;
--- Quote ---"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
--- End quote ---
When did Harry hear those words from him? Right after Mab spoke, Uriel wasn't talking about Lasciel here, he was telling Harry that Mab was lying to him.. Not directly as g33h points out and I agree she is talking to old Demonreach in front of of Harry, so not technically lying to him.. Still what she had just said was a lie, because Mab knows as well as anyone when she said it, that she cannot fundamentally change who Harry is.
Eb warns Harry in Changes that yes, the Fae will try to lie to get control.. He says that as a 250 plus year old wizard who as he also said has bargained with the Fae in his time...
He says;
--- Quote --- They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
--- End quote ---
What is Eb saying here? The Fae will try and lie to get what they want!
Also I did point out the difference between deception and lying to someone.. Mab is deceptive as hell, but as both Uriel and Eb point out, she can lie if she needs to and will if it will get her what she wants or needs.. So in the text as you point out the Fae are constantly saying that they cannot lie.. Interesting don't you think it is the Fae saying that, don't remember others saying it.. I don't know, one is also told that it is dangerous to bargain with the Fae, and maybe just maybe when they say they cannot lie, it is time to hold on to your wallet..
I'm just pointing out that it is also in the text in two different books stated by two different characters that Mab and the Fae, do or will try to lie to get what they want...
And to quote Eb;
"Don't fall for it."
CrusherJen:
Considering Eb is also so blinded by rage against White Court vamps that he snubbed one grandson and nearly killed the other one because of it, I wouldn't take anything Eb says without a healthy heaping of salt. He is not an unbiased, objective source for information.
Eb's also not exactly the poster child for "free will," since if he had his way, Harry would abandon his daughter and turn his back on Thomas. He has his own agenda for Harry, which may or may not be linked to White Council politics... and there's a lot we don't know yet about those wizards' intrigues.
Edit to add: Let's not forget, Eb perpetrated one of the biggest lies (by omission) in the whole series-- he neglected to tell Harry they were related... for years. So he isn't above deceptions of his own when he feels it's necessary. "Pot, kettle, all day long."
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