The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Who called up the Cornerhounds?
Xamion:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 03, 2023, 03:00:27 AM --- Does that not mean that his or her free will was screwed with? Harry chose to suicide based on the lies that Lasciel whispered in his ear. Because he made his free choice based on her lies, Uriel was allowed to step in because since his choice was based on lies, it really wasn't a free choice. I know, this stuff gives me a headache too... ???
--- End quote ---
No, actually, that one's easy. It's not the "his choice was based on a lie" that matters, it is "who told him the lie upon which he acted" that does. As long as the choice is made due to a Fallen's direct manipulation/involvement, Uriel gets to interfere (to the same extent as the Fallen did), due to the White God's stipulations. If Mab had told him the same thing Lasciel did, and Harry acted upon that the same way, Uriel wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Xamion on October 03, 2023, 01:04:36 PM ---No, actually, that one's easy. It's not the "his choice was based on a lie" that matters, it is "who told him the lie upon which he acted" that does. As long as the choice is made due to a Fallen's direct manipulation/involvement, Uriel gets to interfere (to the same extent as the Fallen did), due to the White God's stipulations. If Mab had told him the same thing Lasciel did, and Harry acted upon that the same way, Uriel wouldn't be able to do anything to stop it.
--- End quote ---
I'm not so sure about that, though she may not be quite on par with an angel, fallen or arch, she is pretty powerful. And actually she did lie to Harry, which also contributed to his decision to suicide.
That's why Uriel's seven words were so important because they changed Harry's perception of what he could and couldn't do as Winter Knight. Lasciel may have tipped the balance by telling Harry everything was his fault, but a big factor in his decision was his fear of becoming Mab's monster, another Slate. Harry actually thought that being Mab's Winter Knight meant that he'd given up his right to make choices. It was a sacrifice he was willing to make because he wanted to save Maggie, but he didn't want to become a monster either, so he suicided. Uriel's seven words told him that Mab was lying, he still has free will or choices.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 03, 2023, 03:00:27 AM ---... Does that not mean that his or her free will was screwed with? Harry chose to suicide based on the lies that Lasciel whispered in his ear...
--- End quote ---
The Fallen did not merely tell a lie.
Specifically, the Fallen told a devastatingly-effective lie, using a time calculated to be a moment profound weakness and a specific piece of self-criticism Harry regularly tells himself; and they did so on consecrated ground, where the victim could reasonably expect to be free from malign spirits.
It is (as Uriel points out) the kind of lie, and a delivery of the lie, that only a Fallen Angel could have managed; and even Fallen, the angelic beings are "held to a higher standard."
Uriel, in turn, does exactly the same, in reverse: he tells the truth (in seven words); he tells it at a moment when Harry profoundly needed some encouragement, at a moment when he thought he was on his own (laying in the depths of Demonreach, in the lap of the Queen of Wicked Faeries... in other words, far beyond even the remote chance of outside help).
--- Quote from: Mira on October 03, 2023, 03:00:27 AM --- ... Yet she told him a whole boat load of lies when he went to see her in the apartment didn't she ...
--- End quote ---
I don't think Justine told any lies, no. That was Nemesis speaking, still hiding behind the mask, still pretending to be Justine.
--- Quote from: Mira on October 03, 2023, 03:00:27 AM --- ... I think it happened on the island when Maeve got killed at the end of Cold Days ...
--- End quote ---
I suppose it can't be ruled out, but I doubt it.
--- Quote from: Mira on October 03, 2023, 03:00:27 AM --- ... If the Winter Lady Mantle can jump to the nearest vessel as it did into Molly, why can't the Neminfection?
--- End quote ---
The Mantles are part of Creation, they are supposed to work that way.
Nemesis is from Outside; it isn't supposed to exist at all; and it certainly should not easily slip inside someone. Nemesis, I think, needs some degree of initial buy-in; it needs someone to act ambitiously, or fearfully, or otherwise open some channel for moral suasion...
Aurora wanted to "end the cycles of needless suffering" and Nemesis offered a way to do that.
Lea wanted more power, likely wanted to become Winter's Queen; and Nemesis offered that power.
Maeve wanted to prove she was better than her mother, smarter; wanted her mother to acknowledge that Maeve was good enough; Maeve thought being able to lie would let her outmaneuver Mab, and Nemesis gave her that ability.
These were Nemesis' routes in, the temptations offered.
I do not believe Nemesis can simply "jump into" anyone without the (prospective) victim accepting some offer, making some choice. I don't think Justine was given any choice on the island.
I think the critical moment for Justine happened (offscreen) sometime before White Night. Justine had been psychically damaged, and was unable to be with Thomas. I think something in the Raith manor/treasury/whatever was a Nemvector, and offered to help Justine rebuild her psyche... to help Thomas and/or to be with him again... and that was the temptation she could not withstand.
Mira:
--- Quote ---The Fallen did not merely tell a lie.
Specifically, the Fallen told a devastatingly-effective lie, using a time calculated to be a moment profound weakness and a specific piece of self-criticism Harry regularly tells himself; and they did so on consecrated ground, where the victim could reasonably expect to be free from malign spirits.
It is (as Uriel points out) the kind of lie, and a delivery of the lie, that only a Fallen Angel could have managed; and even Fallen, the angelic beings are "held to a higher standard."
Uriel, in turn, does exactly the same, in reverse: he tells the truth (in seven words); he tells it at a moment when Harry profoundly needed some encouragement, at a moment when he thought he was on his own (laying in the depths of Demonreach, in the lap of the Queen of Wicked Faeries... in other words, far beyond even the remote chance of outside help).
--- End quote ---
True, but as you point out, timing is everything! Uriel could have told the truth at any time, but he waited until Harry learned a valuable lesson, and just when Harry was sinking into depression again because he woke up in Mab's arms and thought he'd have to follow her orders no matter what.. That's when Uriel restored his sense of free will with his seven words, among other things telling him what Mab had told him were lies. It was the combo of what Lasciel told him, and what he had to chose to do to save little Maggie, he thought he was giving up his free will by becoming Mab's Winter Knight..
--- Quote ---I don't think Justine told any lies, no. That was Nemesis speaking, still hiding behind the mask, still pretending to be Justine.
--- End quote ---
But that's the point, kind of like Luccio under the influence of Peabody ink, only on steroids! Nemesis may have been behind it, but the lies came out of Justine's mouth. She most likely couldn't fight it, but until they got to the island Harry didn't know that. While her actions may not have been her own, what came out of her mouth, and her actions was still her own as far as those who knew and loved her were concerned. That's why the plan by Nemesis was so clever, it made complete use of the trust of those who loved her had in her. Of course Justine wanted to visit the island and be near Thomas, that's no lie, but HWWB also wanted on the island for a different reason.
--- Quote ---I suppose it can't be ruled out, but I doubt it.
--- End quote ---
I think it plausible because that would put her in the same area as Nemesis. I doubt that Nemesis would take defeat that easily. It is just logical that Nemesis would have a plan "B." It isn't the first time either, when Lea was maneuvered into taking the infected Knife failed because when she felt symptoms she confessed to Mab, which should have ended the plan... Only Neither Mab nor Lea understood in time that it was the Knife that was infected, thus Maeve who was vulnerable to begin with, became infected beyond curing and Nemesis's plan almost succeeded.. That was foiled, but there was plan "C" waiting in the wings, Justine.. Through her Thomas, Harry were both manipulated, and through them the White Court, White Council, and Winter Court were all pulled in.. And again, it almost succeeded, except Harry finally realized at the last moment on the boat..
--- Quote ---The Mantles are part of Creation, they are supposed to work that way.
Nemesis is from Outside; it isn't supposed to exist at all; and it certainly should not easily slip inside someone. Nemesis, I think, needs some degree of initial buy-in; it needs someone to act ambitiously, or fearfully, or otherwise open some channel for moral suasion...
--- End quote ---
How do we know that Nemesis isn't supposed to exist? Who is to say that the Outside isn't a part of Creation, it exists doesn't it?
--- Quote ---I do not believe Nemesis can simply "jump into" anyone without the (prospective) victim accepting some offer, making some choice. I don't think Justine was given any choice on the island.
--- End quote ---
I don't think in this case "choice" works the way you think it does. I think Nemesis is much more subtle than that, more like a low grade infection at first, something Justine wouldn't notice. A lot like a shadow of a fallen angel works on the mind of it's host. Remember if it wasn't for Butters, Harry wouldn't have been aware of the Shadow of Lasciel. So subtly whispering first perhaps, a longing for a child, to give Thomas a child, normal feelings, but then escalating to all consuming.. That will drive a person to a lot of things before they realize what is happening. No, Nemesis never gave Justine a choice, by the time the events of Peace Talks began, she was merely a passenger along for the ride being used as HWWB's mouthpiece and doing it's bidding.
--- Quote ---I think the critical moment for Justine happened (offscreen) sometime before White Night. Justine had been psychically damaged, and was unable to be with Thomas. I think something in the Wraith manor/treasury/whatever was a Nemvector, and offered to help Justine rebuild her psyche... to help Thomas and/or to be with him again... and that was the temptation she could not withstand.
--- End quote ---
Maybe, but either way the infection was never overt.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 03, 2023, 10:52:26 PM --- ... I don't think in this case "choice" works the way you think it does. I think Nemesis is much more subtle than that, more like a low grade infection at first, something Justine wouldn't notice. A lot like a shadow of a fallen angel works on the mind of it's host ...
--- End quote ---
Yes, I think the Denarian Shadows are the closest model we have to Nemfection. Honestly, I doubt that they work identically; but until we have more info, the Shadows seems to be our best working model for Nemfection.
And the Shadows cannot just "appear" in someone's mind.
The target has to decide to pick up one of the Blackened Denarii.
Nicodemus wanted to recruit Harry... desired it reasonably strongly, I think: he went to a fair amount of effort to arrange the running-water-confinement. When the initial effort failed, he later tossed one of the Denarii onto a KotC's property (out of his control) (I mean, that's pretty win-win for Nic, Harry or Michael's son (except see below)).
The thing is -- if implanting a Shadow were as casual & easily-done as all that, he just could have duct-taped the Denarius to Harry's back. SkinContactBoomDone.
But Harry -- in Michael's yard -- could (should!) have just stomped his booted foot down on the coin (it's how I (and everyone I know) handles "dropped coin rolling around" ... and a quick move with the feet (sometimes a stomp, sometimes a block) is also how we all handle "small dangerous thing at ground level, near small vulnerable child/pet/etc). So Nic's gamble with Lasciel's Coin was actually kind of a long-shot: the odds-on favorite for Harry's move wouldn't have opened him up to the Shadow.
The point here -- with regard to Nemfection, and Nemesis host-hopping -- is that there are lots of signs that it's just not that easy. If you kill a KotBD, the Fallen within their host cannot just bop into a new host and say, "fetch me my Coin, lackey!" The (prospective) host has to proactively pick up the Coin.
So, I think Justine had to do something, assent somehow. Not just be standing in the wrong place at the right time.
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