The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Who called up the Cornerhounds?

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Mira:

--- Quote ---And the Shadows cannot just "appear" in someone's mind.
The target has to decide to pick up one of the Blackened Denarii.

--- End quote ---
Yes, picking up the coin is the difference for the Shadow of the Fallen, however I might point out that Nemesis is very careful as to whom it picks as it's targets to infect.  Lea was ambitious and wanted more power, this made her the perfect target for the infected Knife.  However that was a slight miscalculation, Lea while ambitious, wasn't stupid and knows her Queen.. Once she felt the symptoms she confessed to Mab and got put on ice.  Maeve on the other hand had been struggling for years with her place as Lady, had "Mommy" issues, and sibling jealousy, she was totally vulnerable and Nemesis took full advantage.  Not sure what issues Aurora or Catsyth had, not enough is known of either and they were already infected when we first meet them.  Justine on the other hand suffered from mental illness and had powerful connections, easy to see how she'd be a target.  The question becomes, what is the vector for the infection?  The Knife was in the case of Lea and company, but we don't know about the others.

--- Quote ---The point here -- with regard to Nemfection, and Nemesis host-hopping -- is that there are lots of signs that it's just not that easy.  If you kill a KotBD, the Fallen within their host cannot just bop into a new host and say, "fetch me my Coin, lackey!"  The (prospective) host has to proactively pick up the Coin.

--- End quote ---

That I think is a gray area, because when we first meet the Knights of the Cross and Denarians, on or two are killed and their coins released... Harry innocently goes to pick it up and if I remember correctly is stopped by Shiro, who warns Harry not to touch it, then carefully picks it up in a special hanky for lack of a better word.  So I think you can be affected just by touching a coin even if you don't know what it is.  Now it could be the Knights knew that Harry was a  target all along and there for were extra careful about him not coming into contact with one.  On the other hand, touching a coin is how a Shadow of the Fallen is introduced into your mind.. We've seen how it can create havoc with illusions, without a host knowing it.. Who is to say a random pick up is as good as a targeted pick up?

--- Quote ---So, I think Justine had to do something, assent somehow.  Not just be standing in the wrong place at the right time.
--- End quote ---

I don't think it was a matter of her standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.. Or rather it was, but more her being a vulnerable person standing in the wrong place at the wrong time if that makes any sense?  Say you go to a play, the person who bought the ticket next to you happens to have COVID, wrong place, wrong time, but you have decent immunity, vaccinated so don't get sick. Or you go to the play, the person who happens to sit beside you has COVID, you are over weight and have COPD, you catch it and die... In both cases you were sitting in the wrong seat at the wrong time, but in one case you were more vulnerable to infection than the other with very different outcomes. We know that Nemesis isn't just any dumb virus, it carefully selects it's hosts for maximum effect. 

So consider, when Maeve is shot, Nemesis is released from her body, of the beings present, who was most likely mentally and emotionally most vulnerable? Justine.  So I agree that it isn't just a simple matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time to get infected with Nemesis, it can also be true that being in the wrong place at the wrong time with vulnerabilities will get you infected... Both can be true at the same time.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Mira on October 04, 2023, 07:31:16 PM --- ... Not sure what issues Aurora or Catsyth had, not enough is known of either and they were already infected when we first meet them ...
--- End quote ---
As I wrote above:  I think Aurora was tormented by the "cycles of suffering" between Summer/Winter, the constant warfare with humanity suffering not only Summer's cruel heat & stuff like Malaria, Ebola, and the other severe warm-location diseases, but also the rigors of Winter, the cold and the hunger and the hardship &c.

That (I surmise) was Nemesis' "temptation" to her, the way past her defenses... the chance to end the cycles.

It certainly seemed her prime motivation there at the end... so why not just as much Nemesis' "route in" ?

I don't think Cat Sith was nemfected when we met him; there was the scene at the Svartalf compound, where Sith didn't answer when Harry summoned him; that, I think was when he was being turned.

As to how/why:  I think it was being Harry's "batsman," having to obey a mortal that way...  Think about it:
An obedient cat?  ::)
An obedient... malk??!?   :o
The Eldest Malk... obedient to a mortal!!!  (we need... like... a stabby-murder emoji here)

I think the rage and frustration, with no recourse or outlet, was Cat Sith's weakness for Nemesis to exploit.  The chance to Kill Harry Dresden.


--- Quote from: Mira on October 04, 2023, 07:31:16 PM --- ... That I think is a gray area, because when we first meet the Knights of the Cross and Denarians, on or two are killed and their coins released... Harry innocently goes to pick it up and if I remember correctly is stopped by Shiro, who warns Harry not to touch it, then carefully picks it up in a special hanky for lack of a better word.  So I think you can be affected just by touching a coin even if you don't know what it is.
--- End quote ---
Ignorance isn't necessarily any defense, no.  But you have to (at the least) intentionally pick it up.
 Harry was I think *particularly* vulnerable, there in the alleyway with Ursiel's Coin rolling loose:  he is a magus, "one of the wise."  He is supposed to take care, think before he acts.

Grabbing a random magical gewgaw, something associated with a monster so terrible that all three KotC's had gathered to take it down?  That is sheer arrogance... it is Pride, going before a Fall.  Harry Dresden, choosing to pick something up in his own Pride of Power, his "I can deal with this" arrogance.  Oh, yes... Harry was very much at risk, there.

Similarly the KotC's and other clued-in folk -- they have to take great care; because choosing to be careless is enough of a Choice to leave them open to the Fallen within.


--- Quote from: Mira on October 04, 2023, 07:31:16 PM --- ... So consider, when Maeve is shot, Nemesis is released from her body, of the beings present, who was most likely mentally and emotionally most vulnerable? Justine.  So I agree that it isn't just a simple matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time to get infected with Nemesis, it can also be true that being in the wrong place at the wrong time with vulnerabilities will get you infected... Both can be true at the same time.
--- End quote ---

Again, I go back to the Denarian Shadows.  If someone dies with a Shadow inside them, that Shadow also dies; it isn't "released" to find a new host (at least, that's what Lash told Harry; but it also fits with our understanding of what a "shadow" is -- not a genuine entity but an "imprint" in the mind of one specific host -- when the host dies (really dead, not mostly dead) so does the imprint).

I (strongly) suspect that the multiple instances of Nemesis follow that same principle -- if one of their hosts dies, so does that specific instance of Nemesis.

I honestly have no idea if there's a "Real" instance of Nemesis, a singular being who can be killed really dead; or if it's just a bunch of parallel instances each of whom can act as the "full" entity, launching new Nemfections and acting with full power.
 

Mira:

--- Quote ---As I wrote above:  I think Aurora was tormented by the "cycles of suffering" between Summer/Winter, the constant warfare with humanity suffering not only Summer's cruel heat & stuff like Malaria, Ebola, and the other severe warm-location diseases, but also the rigors of Winter, the cold and the hunger and the hardship &c.
--- End quote ---

She may have been tormented as you say, by those cycles of suffering, but I don't think that was it.  My own opinion now that I think about it, is she didn't like the fact that Winter was top dog in this cycle of power, as in having the main responsibility of guarding the Outer Gates.  Could be wrong there, and Summer Knight deserves yet another reading to get the complexities of Fae Court politics, which have real ramifications as we get deeper into the series.


--- Quote ---Ignorance isn't necessarily any defense, no.  But you have to (at the least) intentionally pick it up.
 Harry was I think *particularly* vulnerable, there in the alleyway with Ursiel's Coin rolling loose:  he is a magus, "one of the wise."  He is supposed to take care, think before he acts.

--- End quote ---
People pay for such "ignorance" every day, sometimes with their life. Wizards are not born wise, wisdom comes from education and experience. Harry's wizardly education is sketchy at best, who and what Denarians are were not one of the subjects that Justin taught, and Eb most likely never touched on that subject.  If Harry knew and understood what a Denarian was he would have avoided if he could that soul gaze that he experienced inadvertently the first time he met one.  That last "experience" underscored his resistance to Lasciel later, he wised up, you might say to what happens if you play games with the Fallen.  However while you can argue that Harry should have known better, an ordinary person such as you and I wouldn't, and if there was something about us that the Fallen felt was worth exploiting, you can bet that shadow would be in our heads tempting away...

--- Quote ---Again, I go back to the Denarian Shadows.  If someone dies with a Shadow inside them, that Shadow also dies; it isn't "released" to find a new host (at least, that's what Lash told Harry; but it also fits with our understanding of what a "shadow" is -- not a genuine entity but an "imprint" in the mind of one specific host -- when the host dies (really dead, not mostly dead) so does the imprint).

--- End quote ---

But the Shadow of one of the Fallen isn't the same as Nemesis.. The Shadow is the psychic energy being of the Fallen trapped in the coin, what the exact nature of Nemesis is, is still unclear.  It has shown itself to act like an infection that can contaminate an object like the Knife and cause insanity, but did Cat Sith, Aurora, and Justine come in contact with an object? It is unlikely they had contact with the Knife.  Speaking of which, at one point I remember Harry spotting that same Knife in Mab's belt.  That's why I don't think she was simply hiding in the ice along side of Lea in Proven Guilty, Mab was taking the cure herself just in case she too was infected.  However back to your original point about ignorance and wizards being one of the wise, how is it that Mab, the thousand year old  Queen of Winter, chief defender of the Outer Gates didn't see until it was too late that it was the Knife that was spreading infection?  One answer, the Knife is an object of power, and power blinds us to a lot of things including danger.  Justine is different from the other infected individuals though, she was actually possessed by an Outsider.. Or that is how it appears.

--- Quote ---Grabbing a random magical gewgaw, something associated with a monster so terrible that all three KotC's had gathered to take it down?  That is sheer arrogance... it is Pride, going before a Fall.  Harry Dresden, choosing to pick something up in his own Pride of Power, his "I can deal with this" arrogance.  Oh, yes... Harry was very much at risk, there.

--- End quote ---

That was the case at Michael's house, I agree, but not when he meets Denarians for the first time, he had no knowledge of the coins or how they worked. 

--- Quote ---I honestly have no idea if there's a "Real" instance of Nemesis, a singular being who can be killed really dead; or if it's just a bunch of parallel instances each of whom can act as the "full" entity, launching new Nemfections and acting with full power.
 
--- End quote ---

Eventually if Jim ever finishes the series and if you and l live long enough to still be able to read it, we will find out....

KurtinStGeorge:
I disagree on the timing of when Justine was infected by Nemesis.  If fact, I'm going to start a separate thread on this topic.

The_Sibelis:

--- Quote ---As to how/why:  I think it was being Harry's "batsman," having to obey a mortal that way...  Think about it:
An obedient cat?  ::)
An obedient... malk??!?   :o
The Eldest Malk... obedient to a mortal!!!  (we need... like... a stabby-murder emoji here)
--- End quote ---
I wonder if he wasn't already on the list of likely/desired hosts. But I think what Harry did was much worse. A Cat Sith that doesn't immediately kill and accepted the challenge of NOT killing mortals?

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