The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Who called up the Cornerhounds?
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 02, 2023, 05:40:22 PM ---You're are right, here is a little tin hat zinger maybe, who are the people in Justine's circle friends? It is possible from her job at Casa Raith that she might have hooked up with occult types who unwittingly were used by her? Or at least didn't understand the ramifications of what they were doing. If I remember correctly from Blood Rites, of the three women who called up the Outsider, only Madge [I believe that was her name] understood what they were really doing. What happened here may have been a variation of that.
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--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on October 02, 2023, 06:41:59 PM ---Cowl has controlled at least three sorcerers in the Files in Chicago alone. The surviving one who abducted the pups summoned up giant monkeys throwing flaming poop, so Cowl has at least one human mortal Sorceror on speed dial who is good at summoning and has likely been polished by him for exactly this type of task. Yet another reason to consider Nameless (a scion) is Cowl. He has been training black magic practitioners in Chicago for years whilst Nameless has been practicing law in the same city.
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Let's be clear, though: we don't know that this "who" matters. As quoted above, it could have been some low-level mook, really; or Cowl himself, or another (possibly unidentified) Power-Player, making a Play; or anyone anywhere on the spectrum between "mook" and "Power Player".
I don't think we know if this detail matters until we know the broader implications... did this happen because someone was after Harry? Eb? Following them? Surveilling Justine?
Given the end-of-story revelation about Justine, my bet is that the connection is there; but we don't know what it is... For all we know, sexy Justine could have found some stupid-horny teenaged squib living in another aprtment in the building, and taught them the necessary rituals.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Given the end-of-story revelation about Justine, my bet is that the connection is there; but we don't know what it is... For all we know, sexy Justine could have found some stupid-horny teenaged squib living in another aprtment in the building, and taught them the necessary rituals.
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I don't disagree, I think it is the obvious connection.
--- Quote ---Outsider-summoning needs mortal free will; being possessed by a Walker and made to perform a ritual is pretty much the opposite of that.
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But do we know that for sure? It has been a while since I read Blood Rites and the bits I carefully reread several times was the scenes between Eb and Harry.. My bad, I do remember that it takes a mortal, but does it also need free will? I just don't remember that bit, and of the three woman who summoned the Outsider, while you can say Madge used her free will to do it, but did the other two women? For that matter, how much did Madge really understand and could you say her free will was also compromised? At the very least due to lack of understanding the other women's free will was compromised. And there are examples, i.e. it was the basis for Uriel's interference in Harry's suicide. If HWWB was able to convince her that Harry was a threat to herself, Thomas, and more importantly the baby, Justine could very well of her own free will do what was needed to summon the Corner Hounds.. Come to think of it, how did Justine get possessed to begin with?
g33k:
--- Quote from: Mira on October 02, 2023, 07:51:17 PM --- ... But do we know that for sure?
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We haven't seen it explicitly stated, that I recall.
But we have seen throughout the series how much mortal Choice and mortal Free Will is a cornerstone of the Dresdenverse. I cannot really believe that "Opening the Outer Gates" is an exception.
Also (logistically speaking) it can't be that easy, or the VERY first thing any Outsider would do, when it got to the Mortal world, would be to possess a mortal and summon up a crapton more Outsiders, who in turn would scatter widely and each then possess another mortal and summon yet more, who themselves scatter & etc etc etc until the flood of Outsiders met on the far side of the globe... BigApocalypticTrilogyTheEnd.
--- Quote from: Mira on October 02, 2023, 07:51:17 PM --- ... I just don't remember that bit, and of the three woman who summoned the Outsider, while you can say Madge used her free will to do it, but did the other two women? For that matter, how much did Madge really understand and could you say her free will was also compromised? At the very least due to lack of understanding the other women's free will was compromised...
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I don't think it takes perfectly-uncompromised free will, perfectly-informed consent.
Indeed, from what we know of the Dresden Files, nobody(*) within Creation has "perfectly informed consent" regarding the Outsiders! You just need to know that you're summoning Something Bad, to do Something Bad; and be willing to do that.
--- Quote from: Mira on October 02, 2023, 07:51:17 PM --- ... If HWWB was able to convince her that Harry was a threat to herself, Thomas, and more importantly the baby, Justine could very well of her own free will do what was needed to summon the Corner Hounds. Come to think of it, how did Justine get possessed to begin with?
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I think Justine is too clued-in to fall for such a lie. Harry is the only person who believes in Thomas' "innocence" (in the sense of "a rational excuse for doing what he did"), the only person with any chance of getting Thomas freed.
As for "how" she got Nemfected: we obviously don't know, but my bet is that Papa Raith's "private collection" was somehow involved, and Justine (as Lara's "helper") was exposed. I think there's likely more Outsider magic there, both other spells and "magic items" (akin to Morgana's Athame (though not necessarily that strong)).
(*) At least, virtually nobody within Creation
vincentric:
I don't think lack of understanding constitutes a compromising of free will. People do stupid and dangerous things they don't understand all the time without being under malign influence. Bad choices are just bad.
Mira:
--- Quote ---I don't think lack of understanding constitutes a compromising of free will. People do stupid and dangerous things they don't understand all the time without being under malign influence. Bad choices are just bad.
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It is true that bad choices are still bad choices, and people do do stupid things. That's one thing, but if a person is given wrong information or is lied to and thinks he or she is making the best choice based on bad information or lies, but wouldn't have made that choice if he or she got the right information or the truth.. Does that not mean that his or her free will was screwed with? Harry chose to suicide based on the lies that Lasciel whispered in his ear. Because he made his free choice based on her lies, Uriel was allowed to step in because since his choice was based on lies, it really wasn't a free choice. I know, this stuff gives me a headache too... ???
--- Quote ---We haven't seen it explicitly stated, that I recall.
But we have seen throughout the series how much mortal Choice and mortal Free Will is a cornerstone of the Dresdenverse. I cannot really believe that "Opening the Outer Gates" is an exception.
Also (logistically speaking) it can't be that easy, or the VERY first thing any Outsider would do, when it got to the Mortal world, would be to possess a mortal and summon up a crapton more Outsiders, who in turn would scatter widely and each then possess another mortal and summon yet more, who themselves scatter & etc etc etc until the flood of Outsiders met on the far side of the globe... BigApocalypticTrilogyTheEnd.
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I don't think its that easy for an Outsider to possess a mortal to begin with.. Influence maybe, remember way back in Storm Front when Harry almost peed his pants because he saw or thought he saw He Who Walks Behind following one of those kids on Third Eye in the police station? I think it is more of a gray area and Jim is keeping it vague on purpose... Ask him and he is going to say, "I ain't a going to tell you..."
--- Quote ---I think Justine is too clued-in to fall for such a lie. Harry is the only person who believes in Thomas' "innocence" (in the sense of "a rational excuse for doing what he did"), the only person with any chance of getting Thomas freed.
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Yet she told him a whole boat load of lies when he went to see her in the apartment didn't she. Why did she do that? To throw him off the scent of what really happened, and it almost worked up until the last minute when they were almost to the island and Harry figured it out. He believed her up until that moment because he too believed that she was too clued in to fall for lies, loved Thomas and believed in his innocence. In the end his star born "spidy sense" tipped him off to the presence of He Who Walks Beside.
--- Quote ---As for "how" she got Nemfected: we obviously don't know, but my bet is that Papa Raith's "private collection" was somehow involved, and Justine (as Lara's "helper") was exposed. I think there's likely more Outsider magic there, both other spells and "magic items" (akin to Morgana's Athame (though not necessarily that strong)).
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I think it happened on the island when Maeve got killed at the end of Cold Days. If the Winter Lady Mantle can jump to the nearest vessel as it did into Molly, why can't the Neminfection? It wants to survive also, and poor Justine became it's new vessel.
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