The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Battle ground questions

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Arjan:

--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 27, 2022, 12:01:52 AM ---If Marcone is using magic without the aid of Thorned Namshiel then Butcher has broken canon over his knee.  Even if he picked up the coin in the helicopter you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. But it's Butchers book and he can do as he pleases.

Before I commented I wanted to reread the fight. It plays out pretty much as I remembered.  Rudolph frightened out of his mind and left behind by Bradley at Harry's command. Picking up the gun that Bradly had taken from him. With bad trigger discipline.  A jury would never convict him of murder in the US. Maybe of no crime at all. And Harry has killed precisely one mortal with magic.

Butcher had to show Harry getting emotional relief for the events.  If he doesn't break down then the passage serves absolutely no purpose.  He has to show remorse and grief. And the reader has to understand the why. He goes through a lot of effort in Peace Talks preparing for this moment.

Remember why Corpsetaker need a powerful wizard in Ghost Story.

--- End quote ---
Lea explained that. Because just like Harry she was dead.

Regenbogen:

--- Quote from: Fcrate on April 26, 2022, 09:25:59 PM ---@ Mira: Didn't Marcone pull him out of the water in Death Masks? They've had so much contact with each other, and been in a lot of fights together.


--- End quote ---
No, he used the shroud. They didn't touch.

Honestly, the Marcone-always-had-some-magic-theory makes sense to me. I have always found it weird, how well he managed everything in the magical world and how he knew so much and so on. He didn't fit into the story IMHO. But with him being a secret practitioner it actually makes sense. Maybe he was just a one sided talent like Mortimer and his ectomancy, but in his way one of the best. Not council level but no lightweight either.

g33k:

--- Quote from: Mira on April 27, 2022, 11:18:02 AM --- ...  He may not get convicted of murder, but he can be tried and even convicted of either negligent homicide or manslaughter. 
--- End quote ---

Except that it appears that the officials won't have a body.
Any charges at all are exceedingly unlikely (sadly).

I suspect Rudy is going to serve as an example of "life ain't fair" -- he should get punished, but he won't be.

Conspiracy Theorist:
The likelihood is that Rudy will be forced to leave the CYPD due to major psychiatric issues, most CYPD will have seen the supernatural and forced to accept it, and move on. Rudy’s pathology is that he can’t accept it, and that may be a cause of further trauma for Rudy. Imagine the madman railing against the monsters saying they are not real when they are, and everyone now knows now that they are. A neat inversion of more normal psychosis. Perhaps we we will see glimpses of Rudy trying desperately to get reinstated, to publicly campaign against the reality of the monsters, only to be publicly derided as a lunatic,  to be arrested himself for trying to expose Harry as a charlatan and harassment, for being caught publicly vandalising Murphy’s grave, trying to expose her ‘death’. Going on Larry Fowler talking about the conspiracy to blame the terrorist attack on imaginary monsters, and becoming wilder and wilder in his accusations and Conspiracy Theories.

It would be nice in NEXT BOOK if we see this gradual deterioration of Rudy over that year, as Harry’s mental health improves, Rudy’s deteriorates. It would make a nice counterpoint. Harry accepts treatment, Rudy does not. People care for Harry’s health, Rudy has left himself with no one to care for him.

He will no longer be of use to whoever he was working for (not Marcone or Listen, they wouldn’t tolerate his incompetence, my money was on the Merlin who would) so he will lose his additional funding.

BrainFireBob:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on April 27, 2022, 01:17:45 AM ---You're most welcome, but you shouldn't feel stupid. There is so much content we all miss things, I certainly find others making connections or noticing tidbits that I wouldn't.

I hadn't considered the need of the correct body before, but that is an excellent point. Jim said in an interview that in order to be a wizard the bloodline is important, otherwise you just end up a sorcerer. Considering Harry's potential bloodline it's no wonder Harry is so potent. We know next to nothing about Marcone...but we do have a lot of references to him making an excellent monarch in a past era. I wonder if Butcher is foreshadowing Marcone's own bloodline.

Off the top of my head, no they haven't. In point of fact, I do recall Harry explicitly avoiding taking Marcone's hand in the Raith Deeps. I would have to read through all their interactions to be sure, but I suspect that Marcone and Harry have never had skin-to-skin contact.
I think it's a stretch to say that Harry's execution of Corpsetaker in Luccio's body was condoned by Uriel. I don't really see how Uriel (or more likely, The White God himself) sending Butters (an incipient Knight of the Cross) to save Harry from an ex-Denarian (Quintus Cassius "Snakeboy") earlier in Dead Beat is condoning Harry's actions that had not yet occurred.

Harry's reaction after being burned by Fidelacchius can be explained in two ways. Firstly, if you go back to Skin Game where Harry sees Uriel's halo burn with holy light, and it reminds him of every shameful act in his life, one could infer that similar holy power might have a similar effect (i.e. Fidelacchius's contact with Dresden broke his rage and showed him the truth - his actions and rage were immoral). After all, Jesus did say turn the other cheek. I would imagine that The White God of the Dresden Files has a similar moral code (considering there is a Saviour in the Dresden Files - Harry uses several artefacts associated with him). Consider that Harry has a sort-of forced empathy for Rudy in this moment. He is forced to see some of Rudy's soul, and to see how Rudy sees him. Murphy wasn't a murderer. She believed in the law. And as much as she hated Rudolph, she would not want Harry to break the law and commit an extrajudicial killing for her (at least, on a rational level). Had Harry murdered Rudy, he quite possibly would have gone to jail. Killing a cop has consequences. And Harry wasn't acting in self-defence (or defence of another). And I doubt Harry banging on about magical reasons would have helped his case (have you seen many court cases that clear cop killers?). Not to mention that once Harry starts down the path of murdering people, humans specifically, that becomes a slippery slope. And that doesn't even take into account what happens when magic (the power of creation) is used to do it. Harry was also risking becoming a warlock.

The second way to explain Harry's reaction is that Harry wasn't just mad or furious, he was in grief. His anguish at Murphy's sudden death was overwhelming. And once he had moved beyond his rage he was devastated by losing her. This is the women he was currently in love with, had loved for over a decade, and wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. Not surprising really then he felt such terrible sadness at her devastating loss. Regardless of how anyone feels about the character of Murphy, Dresden clearly loves her.

Marcone may have pulled Dresden out of the water...but Harry already knows that Marcone can do magic at this point. So why would he comment on any sort of "spark"? It's prior to Battle Ground that the contact is important. Prior specifically to the reveal.

But perhaps there is another passage earlier in the series that shows contact.

The body issue is a matter of having a body with enough magical connection. As I said above, Jim mentioned that to be a wizard the bloodline is important. So some bodies are better than others.
Would he have? I mean, Jim has said all that soul gazes reveal is truth. But they don't reveal everything. McCoy even said they are not good lie-detectors. And Marcone was prepared for the encounter. Perhaps he also prepared to hide things. Who knows?

It is true we don't know what level Marcone was prior to receiving a Coin. I would note that particular Fallen in the Coin is known to be a magical theory expert. But I think it isn't unreasonable to guess that Marcone may have had more magic than he let on. Now whether that was at Victor Sells level, or Madge's level, or even just the level of one of the Ordo Lebes/Paranetters, or even just one of those types that visit Mac's we don't know. My guess is probably Madge's level to Kravos or Sells. But it is just a guess. I don't think there is any strong evidence in the earlier books that Marcone has magic, or displays anything but subtle magic at best. But there are a few strange things around him as many have commented on. And he did know about the supernatural long before he met Dresden. I just don't think we can rule out the possibility just yet.

I think @g33k hits the nail on the head that we don't have proof. But the point around here is to speculate after all.
I am unsure what you mean about Marcone using magic without the aid of Thorned Namshiel. I don't think Namshiel could use a host that couldn't do any sort of magic though. Remember, the Fallen can boost but cannot change mortals. Otherwise they abrogate free will. I, at least, am suggesting that Marcone's current magical display could be explained by a combination of his own magical talent and learning prior to connecting with Namshiel, and then being tutored and schooled and empowered for years by the magical expert of the Denarians (the Fallen Angel Namshiel).

Also, is it precisely one mortal with magic? Because I am pretty sure he burned Bianca's house down and several mortal bodies were burned up. Not to mention the Fomor Servitors (Turtlenecks) that he fireballs in Battle Ground. Now if you're referring to Justin, I am not even sure he did in fact murder him. That wasn't even proven in the White Council. We now know they had plenty of other reasons to put the Doom of Damocles on Harry, and the apparent murder was a convenient excuse. I also am curious about the half-bloods Harry killed (the half Red Court vampires) with the bloodline curse. That curse was serious dark magic. Not so sure that won't count either.

I agree about why Butcher had to show Harry's emotional turmoil, and the reasons Corpsetaker needed a powerful host.
I think it's a given Namshiel knows a hell of a lot more than Corpsetaker (pun intended). But I doubt the bloodline thing can be circumvented, given the power blood has in the series and the importance of mortals.

--- End quote ---

Proceed on the idea that Marcone- or even all mortals- have a small amount of talent (hence why rituals like Raith's canned summoning works). Say further that they can't develop it in a useful way because they lack the Sight. Further, developing skills takes confidence in possibility and the ability to refine the skill- when you first break a board you are using a lot more unfocused force and energy than you will in 10 or 20 years, even if you are less objectively strong by that point.

By that analogy, Namshiel is providing certainty that things are possible, the sensor suite to observe what Marcone is doing when he manipulates eldritch energies, and possibly through "VR training" giving Marcone the refinement of a lot of practice in a short span of time. Consider Marcone's shields. Very weak- to me, that represented how weak his ability at magic is compared to Harry's. He then used it with maximum cleverness and efficiency. The teapot dome? Namshiel slows time from Marcone's perspective, he works on tiny bits at a time that represent the maximum he can move, but he objectively does it so fast it is like he has expanded massive power quickly. He hasn't- instead of lifting the entire crate of sand in one mighty heave, he made the equivalent of millions of tweezer trips in seconds.

To me, emphasizing the weakness of Marcone's shields- and that he compensated by just stacking them as rapidly as possible for a kind of disintegrating defense-in-depth- was exactly what I'd expect of a low-powered but highly knowledgeable theoretician. He did the big effect (powerful effective shielding) with barely any use of energy (because he's very weak).

Regarding the burning- technically Harry didn't do anything to Bianca. He poured his mystic might into the ghosts of her victims like a loan, allowing them to have enough mystic energy to affect the physical world. That's why it neither violated the Laws nor the Accords. Harry didn't do anything to Bianca or her guests- he gave her prior victims the ability to do so. So no Accorded curbstomping of the White Council. A brilliant White Court vampire-style solution. 

Killing Fomor minions with magic is a fascinating question, though. Once modified, are they still human? Are there any without at least gills? When does backlash occur? If you throw a fireball at someone, and they get capped seconds before your fireball hits, do you backlash? Or is it when you gather your power to kill? If you blast in a door with air or force, and an elderly gentleman has a heart attack from the noise, does that count?

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