The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Battle ground questions

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Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: g33k on April 26, 2022, 08:31:51 PM ---Hmm.  Did Harry ever shake hands (or otherwise have skin/skin contact, including a slap or a punch or etc?) with Marcone?  He rescued Marcone a couple of times; did it happen then?

I don't actually recall any such...

I was going to disagree with you, but... this element suggests you may be correct.  I expect Marcone has a good enough "read" on Harry to know Harry would find "handshake from a crime-lord" offensive (and therefore would do so!) ... unless he was protecting this particular secret.

I mean, the case for "Marcone was always a practitioner" is hardly proven!  But it looks like a solid, credible theory.

(Add in the "corpsetaker" facts, (a) that she was looking for a "suitable" body to be able to properly express her own talents, & (b) that Luccio couldn't make swords in the new body (even though it apparently had SOME magical talent, or the corpsetaker wouldn't have been wearing it).  So Marcone having (at least some) inherent talent seems a likely explanation for Namshiel being able to so quickly do the power-up.

I feel stupid now...
I hadn't put these two in conjunction before.
TYVM!

--- End quote ---
You're most welcome, but you shouldn't feel stupid. There is so much content we all miss things, I certainly find others making connections or noticing tidbits that I wouldn't.

I hadn't considered the need of the correct body before, but that is an excellent point. Jim said in an interview that in order to be a wizard the bloodline is important, otherwise you just end up a sorcerer. Considering Harry's potential bloodline it's no wonder Harry is so potent. We know next to nothing about Marcone...but we do have a lot of references to him making an excellent monarch in a past era. I wonder if Butcher is foreshadowing Marcone's own bloodline.

Off the top of my head, no they haven't. In point of fact, I do recall Harry explicitly avoiding taking Marcone's hand in the Raith Deeps. I would have to read through all their interactions to be sure, but I suspect that Marcone and Harry have never had skin-to-skin contact.


--- Quote from: Fcrate on April 26, 2022, 09:25:59 PM ---@Yuillegan: #6: exactly. Harry has killed a lot of people. In dead beat he shot Luccio in the back of her head, and killed the Denarian in cold blood, he was no threat, but he killed him as punishment. And Uriel indirectly condoned it later on by saying that he sent an incipient knight of the cross for help.
The point is, the emotional reaction after getting burned by the sword is not very believable. It might have been if Harry was a normal man, and a pacifist and perhaps a member of PETA, but even a normal man who's never killed before won't be crying in shame, he'll be furious, but maybe understanding that he's either beaten and can't get on with the task or that it's morally wrong, so he'll grudgingly concede and maybe skullstomp the killer a little bit.
But Harry is not normal now, is he?@ Mira: Didn't Marcone pull him out of the water in Death Masks? They've had so much contact with each other, and been in a lot of fights together.
Edit: I think Luccio's block is mental, not physical. Corpsetaker seems able to efficiently use his magic regardless of the body. At least in dead beat. In ghost story that changed a bit, but he still said that it was "workable".

--- End quote ---
I think it's a stretch to say that Harry's execution of Corpsetaker in Luccio's body was condoned by Uriel. I don't really see how Uriel (or more likely, The White God himself) sending Butters (an incipient Knight of the Cross) to save Harry from an ex-Denarian (Quintus Cassius "Snakeboy") earlier in Dead Beat is condoning Harry's actions that had not yet occurred.

Harry's reaction after being burned by Fidelacchius can be explained in two ways. Firstly, if you go back to Skin Game where Harry sees Uriel's halo burn with holy light, and it reminds him of every shameful act in his life, one could infer that similar holy power might have a similar effect (i.e. Fidelacchius's contact with Dresden broke his rage and showed him the truth - his actions and rage were immoral). After all, Jesus did say turn the other cheek. I would imagine that The White God of the Dresden Files has a similar moral code (considering there is a Saviour in the Dresden Files - Harry uses several artefacts associated with him). Consider that Harry has a sort-of forced empathy for Rudy in this moment. He is forced to see some of Rudy's soul, and to see how Rudy sees him. Murphy wasn't a murderer. She believed in the law. And as much as she hated Rudolph, she would not want Harry to break the law and commit an extrajudicial killing for her (at least, on a rational level). Had Harry murdered Rudy, he quite possibly would have gone to jail. Killing a cop has consequences. And Harry wasn't acting in self-defence (or defence of another). And I doubt Harry banging on about magical reasons would have helped his case (have you seen many court cases that clear cop killers?). Not to mention that once Harry starts down the path of murdering people, humans specifically, that becomes a slippery slope. And that doesn't even take into account what happens when magic (the power of creation) is used to do it. Harry was also risking becoming a warlock.

The second way to explain Harry's reaction is that Harry wasn't just mad or furious, he was in grief. His anguish at Murphy's sudden death was overwhelming. And once he had moved beyond his rage he was devastated by losing her. This is the women he was currently in love with, had loved for over a decade, and wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. Not surprising really then he felt such terrible sadness at her devastating loss. Regardless of how anyone feels about the character of Murphy, Dresden clearly loves her.

Marcone may have pulled Dresden out of the water...but Harry already knows that Marcone can do magic at this point. So why would he comment on any sort of "spark"? It's prior to Battle Ground that the contact is important. Prior specifically to the reveal.

But perhaps there is another passage earlier in the series that shows contact.

The body issue is a matter of having a body with enough magical connection. As I said above, Jim mentioned that to be a wizard the bloodline is important. So some bodies are better than others.


--- Quote from: Mira on April 26, 2022, 11:09:02 PM ---That doesn't make Marcone a practitioner, Harry and Michael have been in more fights together. Harry would have seen it in his soul gaze with Marcone when  he first met him.

--- End quote ---
Would he have? I mean, Jim has said all that soul gazes reveal is truth. But they don't reveal everything. McCoy even said they are not good lie-detectors. And Marcone was prepared for the encounter. Perhaps he also prepared to hide things. Who knows?

It is true we don't know what level Marcone was prior to receiving a Coin. I would note that particular Fallen in the Coin is known to be a magical theory expert. But I think it isn't unreasonable to guess that Marcone may have had more magic than he let on. Now whether that was at Victor Sells level, or Madge's level, or even just the level of one of the Ordo Lebes/Paranetters, or even just one of those types that visit Mac's we don't know. My guess is probably Madge's level to Kravos or Sells. But it is just a guess. I don't think there is any strong evidence in the earlier books that Marcone has magic, or displays anything but subtle magic at best. But there are a few strange things around him as many have commented on. And he did know about the supernatural long before he met Dresden. I just don't think we can rule out the possibility just yet.

I think @g33k hits the nail on the head that we don't have proof. But the point around here is to speculate after all.


--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 27, 2022, 12:01:52 AM ---If Marcone is using magic without the aid of Thorned Namshiel then Butcher has broken canon over his knee.  Even if he picked up the coin in the helicopter you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear. But it's Butchers book and he can do as he pleases.

Before I commented I wanted to reread the fight. It plays out pretty much as I remembered.  Rudolph frightened out of his mind and left behind by Bradley at Harry's command. Picking up the gun that Bradly had taken from him. With bad trigger discipline.  A jury would never convict him of murder in the US. Maybe of no crime at all. And Harry has killed precisely one mortal with magic.

Butcher had to show Harry getting emotional relief for the events.  If he doesn't break down then the passage serves absolutely no purpose.  He has to show remorse and grief. And the reader has to understand the why. He goes through a lot of effort in Peace Talks preparing for this moment.

Remember why Corpsetaker need a powerful wizard in Ghost Story.

--- End quote ---
I am unsure what you mean about Marcone using magic without the aid of Thorned Namshiel. I don't think Namshiel could use a host that couldn't do any sort of magic though. Remember, the Fallen can boost but cannot change mortals. Otherwise they abrogate free will. I, at least, am suggesting that Marcone's current magical display could be explained by a combination of his own magical talent and learning prior to connecting with Namshiel, and then being tutored and schooled and empowered for years by the magical expert of the Denarians (the Fallen Angel Namshiel).

Also, is it precisely one mortal with magic? Because I am pretty sure he burned Bianca's house down and several mortal bodies were burned up. Not to mention the Fomor Servitors (Turtlenecks) that he fireballs in Battle Ground. Now if you're referring to Justin, I am not even sure he did in fact murder him. That wasn't even proven in the White Council. We now know they had plenty of other reasons to put the Doom of Damocles on Harry, and the apparent murder was a convenient excuse. I also am curious about the half-bloods Harry killed (the half Red Court vampires) with the bloodline curse. That curse was serious dark magic. Not so sure that won't count either.

I agree about why Butcher had to show Harry's emotional turmoil, and the reasons Corpsetaker needed a powerful host.


--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on April 27, 2022, 12:07:27 AM ---Unless Namshiel knows something Corpsetaker doesn’t.

--- End quote ---
I think it's a given Namshiel knows a hell of a lot more than Corpsetaker (pun intended). But I doubt the bloodline thing can be circumvented, given the power blood has in the series and the importance of mortals.

morriswalters:
Yeah I think Butcher broke canon. Marcone shouldn't be able to use magic at that level but as I said it's Butchers book. The alternate forms do a lot of magic.  And Marcone shows the stigmata(the eyes and the mark) when they are underwater.

Harry preaches often enough about the sanctity of his magic. The whole paradigm of the books is that you don't use magic to kill mortals.  Either it's BS or it isn't. Harry didn't launch the curse at Chichen Itza. And he murdered Susan by tricking her into turning.  And even then he used a knife. Personally I think the Destroyer put some spin on it but that's just me.

Conspiracy Theorist:
Here’s a thought, Marcone was out of the Country because he was having a bone marrow transplant from a compatible donor with a strong non wizard magical ability. Someone like Binder, willing to accept a fortune and knowing Marcone keeps his word. Not Binder here though given the timing.

There is no reason you can’t graft on a magical ability with science and medicine. LTW would know. The benefit may also be enhanced healing and lifespan, even without the coin. It would also throw off using a previous blood sample against him, something we know Marcone is concerned about after Small Favour.

I wonder if this was why Marcone got cozy with the Paranet?Access to a huge database of practitioners, with that it would merely be a matter of time and money to locate a compatible donor with the strongest available talent, at Will Bordens level perhaps, enough for Namshiel to work with. All those refugees from the Fomor passing through the BFS, it really wasn’t out of the kindness of his heart was it? He was sifting potential candidates.

Namshiel the magic nerd would have been fascinated by this in its own right, let alone the potential to graft magical ability onto his own host.

This may be one instance where science has surpassed magic in the area of medicine. Normally the two are about at the same level.

If so Jim Butcher has cheated, but has done so canonically.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 27, 2022, 02:20:57 AM ---Yeah I think Butcher broke canon. Marcone shouldn't be able to use magic at that level but as I said it's Butchers book. The alternate forms do a lot of magic.  And Marcone shows the stigmata(the eyes and the mark) when they are underwater.

Harry preaches often enough about the sanctity of his magic. The whole paradigm of the books is that you don't use magic to kill mortals.  Either it's BS or it isn't. Harry didn't launch the curse at Chichen Itza. And he murdered Susan by tricking her into turning.  And even then he used a knife. Personally I think the Destroyer put some spin on it but that's just me.

--- End quote ---
It's something he does every now and then. Sometimes it's frustrating, and it often causes disagreements online (oh the horror), but mostly it doesn't matter to me. He's human, he's bound to change his mind or forget things or just make plain old errors. I admit, as the series has gone on more canon-breaking moments have happened and it appears to be becoming more of an issue. I know he cleverly hinted that it might be intentional (which certainly helps get the monkey off his back...for a while), but I am not so sure how much is intentional and how much are genuine mistakes. Hopefully he will find a clever way to rectify most of it (hoping for all of it is madness).

Do the alternate (demonic) forms wield more magic than the human forms? I hadn't really noticed that. Not saying it isn't the case but that would be curious. I don't know why that would make a difference. And furthermore, why are some Denarians capable of using magic spells/choose to use magic spells (I am not including physical acts like transformation or Nicodemus's shadow manipulation despite both of those clearly being magic)? Could any bearer of a Coin use magic if they chose and were tutored? Can Nicodemus perform magic spells? If not, why not?

In theory, as the oldest of the Denarians (of which Nicodemus surely is) one would imagine even if Nicodemus originally had the smallest, meanest, most meagre talent eventually he would have become quite proficient. Yet, we haven't seen so much as an "Abracadabra" from him. So does he simply choose to hide that talent? If so, why? There are so many times it would have been useful to perform some evocation magic. Perhaps he can't. Perhaps he is better at Thaumaturgy or another branch. Yet we haven't seen anything to indicate it. My guess is that Nicodemus does not have the right bloodline to be able to perform wizard magic, and all his abilities come directly from his Fallen Angel.

I could be wrong, but isn't stigmata the appearance of the wounds of Christ upon something (a person, a statue, a painting etc)? I get that the Denarians have their Fallen's sigil appear on their heads but is that really the same?

Well, for many reasons (some which are explained in the books and some outside by Jim) we know how important belief is. So to some extent, when it comes to magic there is a sanctity to using it. Of course, there are universal laws that also apply regardless of Harry's belief but you get the idea. To expound on your point, you don't use magic to kill mortals without consequence. Considering Harry has broken that a few times, his consequences are starting to stack up. And likely there will be more of course.

If Harry didn't launch the bloodline curse, who did? Harry might not have set it up or "charged the bow" to use Bob's analogy, but he pulled the trigger. That counts by most definitions, and considering the power behind that curse and the dark magic in it, I can't see how it wouldn't affect Harry on some level. He might not have used magic as such to launch it, but he used his will, which he has to do to use his magic. Using one's free will to set loose powerful magic that causes massive consequences is not far removed from performing such magic really. Only Jim really knows the nuance but I suspect there is a few.

What do you mean by "the Destroyer put some spin on it"? It sounds interesting but I am not sure I follow.

Mira:

--- Quote ---Before I commented I wanted to reread the fight. It plays out pretty much as I remembered.  Rudolph frightened out of his mind and left behind by Bradley at Harry's command. Picking up the gun that Bradly had taken from him. With bad trigger discipline.  A jury would never convict him of murder in the US. Maybe of no crime at all. And Harry has killed precisely one mortal with magic.
--- End quote ---

Key words here, with bad trigger discipline.  That is what gets people hurt and killed.  He may not get convicted of murder, but he can be tried and even convicted of either negligent homicide or manslaughter. 


--- Quote ---Yeah I think Butcher broke canon. Marcone shouldn't be able to use magic at that level but as I said it's Butchers book. The alternate forms do a lot of magic.  And Marcone shows the stigmata(the eyes and the mark) when they are underwater.

--- End quote ---

And alone, Marcone cannot, but Namshiel can, and does.  At the moment Namshiel is hampered somewhat by the fact that his host has no talent, but he is a willing participant .. That is all Namshiel needs, not unlike Harry who didn't understand Etruscan and was poor at languages, sudden understood and spoke it with the shadow of Lasciel's help.

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