The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Star Born (direct quotes compilation)

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BrainFireBob:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on March 10, 2022, 10:57:22 AM ---Well if we play out the idea that Margaret intended Harry to be a star born, the logic says she must have known a) what star born are (otherwise why bother), b) when the star born conjunction was going to occur and where the light would shine on Earth, c) any sort of preparation/sanctification of Harry that may have been required prior to his birth.

Now we have to figure out where she got this information (information that seems very carefully guarded). Margaret was no slouch and she travelled far and wide; but she was also at odds with the White Council for much of her life (particularly around the time of Harry's birth). It doesn't rule them out but you then have to go the extra step and say it was a conspiracy between them and her.

The more simple explanation is she got the information in her travels (in particular with Lord Raith and his big library that has made Lara turn from a manipulative politician to an expansionist drawing all available power to her, the same library that convinced Lord Raith to become a player in this cycle). But she then did the unexpected and ran away and used the information for her own goals, and not the goals of her previous allies.

In any case, I don't believe the circumstances of Harry's conception played into this. If you're suggesting Malcolm was selected on purpose (particularly for his rare personal characteristics let alone any possible supernatural ones) how does that account for the other 50,000 at the time? You wouldn't suggest that there are 50,000 Malcolms for such purposes. And then you look at a character like Listen. Were his parents specifically selected? While I don't doubt the importance of bloodlines I am not so sure that necessary for the creation of star borns. I think the main components are being in the Light of the conjunction (i.e. the time and place) and any specific sanctification/preparation of Margaret and/or Harry. What other components are there really?
But why go to the effort? Margaret's bloodline was already strong enough (and has Ebenezar in it before her, and potentially dates back to the original Merlin). She didn't need to shop around as she had all the power she needed in her bloodline to produce such a strong wizard.

I don't think that there is some grand conspiracy with choosing Malcolm. I think she chose Malcolm for the simplest yet most mysterious reason of all: love.

This is how she had the strength to escape Lord Raith. She fell in love. So Raith no longer held power over her. And she fled to protect her new love, and perhaps her soon-to-be-born offspring.

I am very confused about the Erlking being linked to Edinburgh. The second Merlin won it off a Sidhe lord - the Erlking is a (the) goblin lord (and stronger than almost any Sidhe bar the Queen and possibly Lea and Eldest Gruff).

--- End quote ---

Think you crossed some arguments.

Maggie was part of a plot to engineer a dangerous, uber-strong wizard starborn. Rather than walk away, she threw a wrench in the process by having such a child with Malcolm- breeding aside, Malcolm also raised Harry. Eb said Malcolm has a soul like few he'd ever seen- after meeting Michael. Also would neatly explain why Harry adopted Michael as a pseudofather so quickly.

The goblins are Wyldfae. Ir's why the Erlking is a Summer King, like Kringle is winter. Erlking is lord of the bloodsport that is the hunt in summer, as Kringle embodies the warmth and family coming together to survive side of Winter.

Wyldfae means Fae. Summer King implies Sidhe. Herne the Hunter is geographically close. And his Nevernever digs were similar tunnels, as I recall.

morriswalters:

--- Quote ---"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
--- End quote ---
Butcher is playing games. He's lied, I just can't figure out about what. Give or take it's about two years after she left that Harry is born. Term may have been longer then nine months but not shorter. So she had about fifteen months to find Malcolm and fall in love. Or somebody else found Malcolm and put him out to stud.

If Margaret  was enthralled to Raith and fell in love with Malcolm that might have broke her free of Raith since he wouldn't have been able to touch her.   He introduced the idea of time passing at different rates in the Never Never  so it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  He(Butcher) has also dropped a lot weird bread crumbs like Margaret and Malcolm visiting the Lincoln Monument just before Harry is born. That may have been where Harry was born (In DC).

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Mira on March 10, 2022, 11:59:53 AM ---No, she was no fool, but from the way Lash words it when she tells Harry about it says she was being set up to be the little star mother.  I will wager it was because of qualities she had.

My answer to that is something Jim said years ago when asked about Elaine and Harry.  Paraphrasing because I cannot remember the exact WOJ, but he said those born at that particular time have the potentialto be star born, which is a lot different from being star born.  Again I used the example of Harry Potter and Nevil Longbottom, both were born  under the same circumstances to become "the boy who lived," actually if I remember the story correctly it should have been Nevil, but it was Voldermort that screwed up and went after the wrong baby.   So what I am saying is if we go by that old WOJ, if I'm remembering it correctly, fifty thousand born under that light and alignment of stars have the potential to be star born, but out of that number, very few actually grow up to be one. 

Margaret also knew she and her baby would be targeted, thus she made arrangements with the Winter Court and Harry ended up with a real fairy godmother.

--- End quote ---
If Margaret has special qualities, are there 50,000 others with special qualities?

The quote that Morris provides is the one I believe you are referring to. For your theory to really work, Harry has to be more special than any other star born. A special star born. Which I grant is possible. Harry could be some Chosen One of a prophecy. But we haven't heard any references to a prophecy or that Harry is chosen. The Chosen One thing is very much a fate thing, yet the series is constantly underlining the importance of choice. While fate and chance are not mutually exclusive necessarily it does make it harder to reconcile.

The other thing to consider is if the 50,000 only have the potential to become star born then when was it that Harry became a star born if not his birth? Was it his first encounter with He Who Walks Behind? Was it earlier? That too has never really been discussed, because to me Harry has been one his whole life since birth. If anything, the hint is that he has the potential to undergo some sort of transformation in the future, not that he has already undergone one.

The other thing about the phrase "star born" is that it literally implies being born from the stars. So becoming a star born from the moment of birth would make sense rather than at some other point.


--- Quote from: Mira on March 10, 2022, 04:17:53 PM ---I'm not totally convinced of that, I think the godmother bit is pretty significant, also the Winter Court is in charge of the defense of the Outer Gates.  So that kind of move in my opinion doesn't happen without passing muster with Mab.  Why would it have to be seen as a move on the White Council by the Winter Court?  To quote Rashid who plays a significant role both on the Senior Council of the White Council and in the Winter Court as the Gate Keeper as one of the main generals keeping the Outsiders at bay.. "What the White Council doesn't know won't hurt it.."
So I wouldn't be shocked if the White Council is totally ignorant that Lea is Harry's godmother.

Um, Mab is Winter, and I doubt it was personal, if Harry was just your ordinary Joe, who's mother made some kind of bargain with Lea, you'd be right, and I doubt that Mab would be interested.  But Harry isn't, Mab knows it, has known it from the time he was a mere gleam in Malcolm's eye, she plays the long game and as a result, got herself a star born as her Winter Knight with the BAT approaching.

--- End quote ---
I believe Lea says that even Mab cannot gainsay her deals - which is clearly partly how Lea has gained so much personal power. Every Fae clearly has the right to their own deals. Toot-toot made his own personal deal with Harry, for example, which has massively increased his personal power.

I think part of the appeal of the deal to claim Harry by Lea was to one-up her position against Mab. Remember they are not friends. Frenemies might be a better term. So in many ways Mab getting Harry as her knight was balancing the scales, and then some.

The White Council know many things they shouldn't, yet then again no one has ever mentioned that deal (and you think they would when trying to paint Harry as a bad guy). So I am inclined to agree that the Council at large are unaware of Harry and Lea's various deals. Although Eb does keep a pretty close eye on Harry, and I wouldn't be surprised if he knew given his own connections with Lea.


--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on March 10, 2022, 06:30:05 PM ---Monarchs have their official sovereign capacity and their personal capacity. So yes, Mab can contract in either capacity. When Harry started being useful to her she made sure she took over Lea’s deal over Harry, literally freezing her our. Everything Lea has done since then for Harry was by Mab after Harry became Winter Knight, part of her duties to her liege..

--- End quote ---
I think you might be going a step too far here. While I agree Mab can make deals both as herself and as her position as Queen (although I suspect much of the differences are semantics in most situations to the person on the other end), Mab only took over Lea's deal that she made with Harry but not Lea's deal with Margaret La Fey. Which I think Lea confirms as much in Changes when she says even she doesn't owe Mab so much to take out the Lords of the Outer Night, but Lea did so anyway because of her obligations to Dresden (because of her deal with Margaret). So I wouldn't say everything is just her duties to Mab, but much of it for sure.


--- Quote from: BrainFireBob on March 10, 2022, 10:28:20 PM ---Think you crossed some arguments.

Maggie was part of a plot to engineer a dangerous, uber-strong wizard starborn. Rather than walk away, she threw a wrench in the process by having such a child with Malcolm- breeding aside, Malcolm also raised Harry. Eb said Malcolm has a soul like few he'd ever seen- after meeting Michael. Also would neatly explain why Harry adopted Michael as a pseudofather so quickly.

The goblins are Wyldfae. Ir's why the Erlking is a Summer King, like Kringle is winter. Erlking is lord of the bloodsport that is the hunt in summer, as Kringle embodies the warmth and family coming together to survive side of Winter.

Wyldfae means Fae. Summer King implies Sidhe. Herne the Hunter is geographically close. And his Nevernever digs were similar tunnels, as I recall.

--- End quote ---
Which arguments did I cross?

Well, that's fair enough if that's your theory. But so far we haven't yet had that written in the books nor as WOJ so for now I am unconvinced that Margaret was part of a plot to create a star born.

But if we play out your theory a bit here - who was Margaret supposed to have a child with originally? And who were the co-conspirators to the plot? And what was going to be achieved by creating a star born? And why not just capture and raise one of the other 50,000?

The goblins are indeed Wyldfae but they are not the Sidhe. Faeries are a nation of many groups. I believe Bob made the comparison of calling to calling humans apes (which implies that the differences between different sub-groups such as goblins and sidhe are just as varied between different sub-groups of apes i.e. would we like being called chimpanzees?)

The Erlking being a Summer King has also been contradicted by Jim himself. I wouldn't rely on it too much. He later also says the Erlking has origins in Winter.

He further then says that there are no real "kings" of Faerie, they are just powerful lords of the Fae. But they don't have Courts.

--- Quote ---There is no such thing as a Summer King in the Dresden Files faerie cosmology. Mab and Titania need a King like a fish needs a bicycle. :)
There are a ton of independent rulers of the Wyld, though, much like the Erlking, who is a member of the Winter Court more or less as a sign of courtesy and respect.
--- End quote ---
Kringle doesn't have a Court, nor does the Erlking. In theory they could side with either Summer or Winter, just like any Wyldfae.

--- Quote ---The Faerie realms just aren’t that structured. It’s more accurate to say that [Kringle] is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab’s and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
--- End quote ---

Who says Herne is the Erlking any more than Kringle is Vadderung? Lots of beings in disguise in the modern day. My meaning is that they could be two legally separate entities that happen to inhabit the same body. Also, Herne is just as associated with Winter given Shakespeare is the earliest reference to him given also one of his titles is "Master of Winter".

I get that his digs are tunnels, and Edinburgh has tunnels, but there are lots of tunnels around the world? That doesn't seem like a strong connection to me. Herne is from Windsor in England, which is as separate from Scotland as Canada is to the US (in those times). Edinburgh is in Scotland so I doubt that Herne had much to do with it. The association with Herne and the Erlking actually comes from the Grimms.


--- Quote from: morriswalters on March 10, 2022, 11:09:47 PM ---Butcher is playing games. He's lied, I just can't figure out about what. Give or take it's about two years after she left that Harry is born. Term may have been longer then nine months but not shorter. So she had about fifteen months to find Malcolm and fall in love. Or somebody else found Malcolm and put him out to stud.

If Margaret  was enthralled to Raith and fell in love with Malcolm that might have broke her free of Raith since he wouldn't have been able to touch her.   He introduced the idea of time passing at different rates in the Never Never  so it isn't out of the realm of possibility.  He(Butcher) has also dropped a lot weird bread crumbs like Margaret and Malcolm visiting the Lincoln Monument just before Harry is born. That may have been where Harry was born (In DC).

--- End quote ---
What makes you think he's lying? I am curious on what that might be. Good to hang on to such feelings as it's often a good way of spotting a hint.

I seem to remember Margaret went on the run for two years, as you say, and in that time Harry was born. I think Ebenezar tells Harry this. I think she didn't meet Malcolm during this time, but rather at the start, given that's what I believe what gave her the strength to escape. Falling in love does crazy things to people after all.

DC is a reasonable spot as any if the location for the conjunction Light is the most if not all of the USA. But I do suspect it might be a bit smaller than that (i.e. the size of a city). DC could be the place of conception though...I doubt even Jim has the answer to that right now (if it ever becomes relevant). I think it would have to be only the size of a city, maybe smaller, given the amount of star borns.

Mira:

--- Quote ---If Margaret has special qualities, are there 50,000 others with special qualities?

--- End quote ---
In a word, yes.  For that matter a fish may lay 50,000 eggs, but only a small percentage of that number survive, and of that number even fewer grow to their full potential.

--- Quote ---The quote that Morris provides is the one I believe you are referring to. For your theory to really work, Harry has to be more special than any other star born. A special star born. Which I grant is possible. Harry could be some Chosen One of a prophecy. But we haven't heard any references to a prophecy or that Harry is chosen. The Chosen One thing is very much a fate thing, yet the series is constantly underlining the importance of choice. While fate and chance are not mutually exclusive necessarily it does make it harder to reconcile.
--- End quote ---
Doesn't mean there isn't a prophecy, there are several books to go plus the three book BAT. And yes, Harry has shown already he isn't your run of the mill star born, because of the choices he has made.  He is the reason Justin's plans or plans he was part of blew up in their faces, Harry didn't behave like a normal star born.  The part you leave out about choice is character, who you are motivates your choices as much as circumstances.  Harry granted has screwed up, he is human, but for the most part they have been for the better.  There is a reason why Shiro sacrificed himself for Harry, made him Custodian of his Sword when he passed, they haven't all been revealed yet.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Mira on March 11, 2022, 12:45:03 PM ---In a word, yes.  For that matter a fish may lay 50,000 eggs, but only a small percentage of that number survive, and of that number even fewer grow to their full potential.

Doesn't mean there isn't a prophecy, there are several books to go plus the three book BAT. And yes, Harry has shown already he isn't your run of the mill star born, because of the choices he has made.  He is the reason Justin's plans or plans he was part of blew up in their faces, Harry didn't behave like a normal star born.  The part you leave out about choice is character, who you are motivates your choices as much as circumstances.  Harry granted has screwed up, he is human, but for the most part they have been for the better.  There is a reason why Shiro sacrificed himself for Harry, made him Custodian of his Sword when he passed, they haven't all been revealed yet.

--- End quote ---
Even if there are 50k special parents give or take, that doesn't address Margaret choosing to be a part of some plot.

But Harry's choices don't make him intrinsically special any more than any other individuals choices. He's more special than the average human both because he is a wizard and because he is a star born, and perhaps because of some chosen one thing, and his choices have intensified this. But they don't make him a "special" star born. He doesn't have attributes beyond any of the others as far as we know. He has displayed the regular powers of star born i.e. resisting the power of the Outside and being able to hurt the Outsiders.

We don't know how a normal star born would behave as Harry is the benchmark, and we've only met two confirmed star born (possibly three). I don't see a difference between how bad star born act and how bad individuals act.

Shiro would have sacrificed himself for the lowest person on the planet. He is just that good of a person. Harry's star born nature had nothing to do with it, and I don't remember Shiro knowing a thing about it. Even if he did, I doubt that played into it whatsoever. That's what being a Knight of the Cross really means.

You also haven't addressed when Harry became a star born. When do you propose this happened?

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