The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Star Born (direct quotes compilation)

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Con:
edit: I thought about putting this at the bottom but I'm trying to keep the quotes more or less chronologically by book.

Rashids analyses of the Senior Councils decisions and concerns in Summer Knight my have some bearing on Star Born and what they fear.

--- Quote ---"We have set our feet upon a darkling path" he murmured. "A road that will grow only more dangerous. Our first steps are crititcal. We must make them with caution."
The cowl turned to Ebenezar and the Gatekeeper said.
"You love the boy Wizard MCCoy. You would fight to defend him. Your own dedication to our cause is not inconsiderable. I respect your choice.
He turned toward LaFortier.
"You question Dresden's loyalty and his ability. You imply that only a bad seed can grow from bad soil. Your concerns are understandable-and if correct, then Dresden poses a major threat to the Council."
He turned to Ancient Mai and inclined the cowl forward a few degrees. The Ancient replied with a slight bow of her own.
"Ancient Mai" The Gatekeeper said "You question his ability to use his power wisely. To judge between right and wrong. "You fear that DuMornes teaching may have twisted him in ways even he cannot yet see. Your fears too are justified."
He turned to the Merlin. "Honored Merlin. You know that Dresden has drawn death and danger upon the Council. You believe that if he is removed so will be that danger. Your fears are understandable but not reasonable. Regardless of what happens to Dresden, the Red Court has struck a blow against the Council too deep to be ignored. A cessation of current hostilities would only be the calm before the storm."
...
"Let him secure the assistance of Winter. If he does that should lay to rest your concerns regarding his ability LaFortier"
LaFortier frowned then nodded at the Gatekeeper. He turned to Ancient Mai.
"Should he accomplish this it should show that he is willing to accept responsibility for his mistake and to work against his own best interests for the greater good of the Council. It should satisfy your concerns ass to his judgement-to make the mistakes of youth is no crime but not to learn from them is. Agreed?"
Ancient Mai narrowed he rheumy eyes but gave the Gatekeeper a precise nod.
"And you honored Merlin. Such a success may do much to alleviate the pressure of the coming war. If securing routes through the Nevernever places the Red Court at a severe enough disadvantage, it may even enable us to avoid it entirely. Surely it would prove Dresden's dedication to the Council beyond a doubt."
...
"Then perhaps their fears are more justified than your affection, Wizard McCoy. We may indeed conclude that his appointment to full Wizard initiate may have been premature."
--- End quote ---

Some interesting theories and politics that could have bearing on Harry being Star Born and why LtW is so cautious about the political ramifications.

Curtesy of @morriswalters:
If you wish you may want to add this quote from Blood Rites
Quote

--- Quote ---She touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."
--- End quote ---

Lash gives the first direct hints.

--- Quote --- "I mean no insult by it, but you should know that your ability to comprehend your environment is very strongly defined by your belief in a number of illusions. Time, Truth. Love That kind of thing. It isn't you fault of course-- but it does impose limits upon your ability to percieve and unerstand some matters.
...
She sighed. "Again you have only a partial understanding. But in the interest of expediency yes. You would have to cease living".
...
"because of the circumstances of your birth-because of *why* you were born Harry. Your mother found strength to escape Lord Raith for a *reason*."
...
"He Who Walks Behind *is* an Outsider, Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities, But when he came for you, you overthrew hi,."
...
"You have potential to hold great power over them. You may be able to escape the power now held over you. If you are sure it is what you want."
--- End quote ---

Cold Days various people mention Harry's growing knowledge, power and interest by various beings.

Mother Winter
--- Quote ---"So" she whispered a moment later. "You have finally come to see what has been before you all this time."
...
"He knew certain names. He was not wholly stupid in choosing them or wholly wrong in using them."
mother Summer's bright green eyes narrowed. "Did he..?
"No" croaked Mother Winter "Not that one. But he has seen the adversary and learned one of its names"
...
"So many new futures unwinding"
"Too many Bright ones" Mother Winter said sullenly
"Even you must think better that than empty night."
...
"He is a weapon. Let him be made stronger"
"Or broken"
...
"If you choose to walk with me what is seen cannot be unseen and what is known cannot be unknown. It may harm you.
...
"You may never know a night's peace again. Knowledge is power, young man. Power to do good and power to do harm. Some knowledge can hurt. Some can kill."
...
"Even if it may haunt you? Harm You? Isolate you?"
--- End quote ---
[/quote]
Now at the time I just assumed Mother Summer was just talking about the Outer Gates but now with everyone being nervous about StarBorn maybe Mother Summer only showed Harry some of it a half truth only what he was ready. Very Fae like. Maybe Mother Summer thought she told him as much as she could and thought Harry would piece it together. Harry in this seen himself comments on the cripticness in his inner monolog.


--- Quote ---"JUST TELL ME WHOSE SKULL TO CREAK WITH MY CLUB DAMMIT!"
--- End quote ---

Now Rashid's turn at criptic albeit more White Council stuff

--- Quote ---"Still I can't recall the last time a wizard of your age managed the trip however it was done. You take after your mother."
I blinked "You knew her?"
"Those of us who spend any amount of time wlaking the Ways tend to develop a certain amount of camaraderie. We would have dinner every so often compare notes of our walks. And there were several of us who were friends of Ebenezar who.. took it upon ourselces to watch over her."
...
"You've become aware of the adversary" he said his one one of firm approval. "Excellent. I was certain your particular pursuits would get you killed long before you got a chance to lean."
...
"to say nothing of the problems you've created for yourself that you haven't found out about yet."
...
"Wait" I said "What problems? I haven't been trying to create problems:
"Oh" he said waving a hand. "You've danced about in the shadows at the edge of life now young man. That's no small thing, to go into those shadows and come back again-- you've no idea the kind of attention you've attracted."
...(Outsider lo down)
...
"I know precisely how it feels to be where you are... Precisely"
....
"I will settle matters between you and the Council which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to-- and that isn't much"
--- End quote ---

Vadderung conversation

--- Quote ---"I'm sure it isn't an uncommon play among wizards" I said
Something in his eye flashed, an amused thought that went by almost before I could see it.
"Fewer try it than you might think"
...
"Nothing that significant just happens, Dresden"
...
"I'm aware of how important it is that the island be well managed. Most of the people who came to your party in Mexico are."
By which he meant the Grey Council.
...
"Wizard... you have been dead and returned. It has marked you. It had opened doors and paths that you do not yet know exist, and attracted the attention of beings who formerly would never have taken note of your insignifance
"Meaning what?" I asked
There was no humour at ll in his face. "Meaning that now more than ever you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting."
--- End quote ---





Ebenezar gives us the footnote version

--- Quote ---"Every couple or three wizard generations" Ebenezar said "the stars line up just right and what amounts to a spotlight plays over the earth for a few hours. Any child born within that light--"
...
"Power against the Outsiders" the old man growled "Among other things that their minds can't be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside. Which means..."
(fight with Outsiders in which Harry has the penny dropped)
"Not until I get something on this whole starborn thing."
...
"I told you You were born at the right time and place. As a result you.. He sighed as if struggling to find an explanation. "Your life force resonates at a frequency that is the mirror opposite and cancellation of the Outsiders. They can't take away your free will. They're vulnerable to your power. Hell you can punch them and they'll actually feel pain from it.
...
"This starborn thing. It happens all the time?"
"Once every six hundred and sixty-six years."
"Why?" I asked him "What's it for? What's coming?"
"Lessons over for tonight. I already said more'n I should've"
--- End quote ---

Harry's penny drop moment

--- Quote ---Was that why Nemesis for example had revealed itself to me but had never actually attacked me in an effort to take control of my thoughts and actions? Because it actually *couldn't*? It made sense grouped with my previous experiences with Outsides, where others had been disalbed by their attacks while I had still been capable of taking action. It meant that not only could I resist their influence but I could go up against these things, mind to mind, without fear of short-circulating my brain along the way.
--- End quote ---

So I'm collecting all the star born quotes I can find. Quite afew from Battle Ground.

Mab barely contains herself several times.

--- Quote --- "He is *exactly* my weapon she hissed "By his own choice. Which is more than *your* people ever gave him. And they call the Sidhe wicked and deceitful."
I blinked and shot a glance at Ebenezar
The old man wouldn't meet my eyes.
...
"Immortality offers a significant advantage but it is no substitute for intelligence. Remember that young wizard"
Ebenezar scowled and opened his mouth.
"Should it for some bizarre reason ever be necessary" Mab said smoothly before he could speak.
 I stared back and forth between the pair of them for a second.
Yeah. Time for things to change.

--- End quote ---

Well Drakul reveals the most:


--- Quote ---"Their immaculate beardlinesses have you in the dark even now? As one starborn to another I must say it seems unseemly in the extreme."
...
"I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren't telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do."
...
"Ill be open with you star-born."
--- End quote ---

LtW is scared enough of the truth and apparently has to do some political favours to reveal it:

--- Quote ---"He's got a different set of priorities."
"Because he's starborn" I guessed
Listens to Wind looked at me sharply.
...
"There's some secrets that do worse than get you killed. A whole hell of a lot worse."
...
"I'll be your advocate. I'll speak on your behalf to the others"
...
"Thats how big this is boy. I a senior wizard of the White Council don't think I'm smart enough to make this call alone"
...
"The people I need to talk to? Make it a year."
--- End quote ---

River Shoulders knows but tries to stay out of it:

--- Quote --- He looked uncomfortable. "Lot of the wizards who matter are near the end. Hanging on hard."
I tilted my head at him "Why?"
"Not the right erson time or place to tell starborn.
I pursed my lis. "Six hundred and sixty sic years" I said experimentally
River's craggy brows rose itself a feat of superhuman strenth "Huh" he said "You learned some things"
"I learnt that" I said
"We pretty close to that time" he said "Kinda promised not to tell you anything. Sucks. Necessary."
...
"There's plenty that you don't know yet. And maybe this story isn't mine to tell."
--- End quote ---

Mavra says

--- Quote --- "Starborn are for the Master"
--- End quote ---

and Listens one apparently valuable enough for Corb and Ethniu to keep him around

--- Quote --- "How many starborn are there wandering about this close to the endga-"
--- End quote ---

So Eb and LtW seem to be a bit guilty about keeping whatever it is from Harry. Given Ebs other major secrets were Blackstaff and Grandad it's gotta be bigger then those right?

Mab and Drakul think the White Councils manipulating even 'breeding' Harry with him having little choice about it.

Morgan the Bastard. Sorry I refuse to give him SnapeSyndrome forgiveness.
(edit add. I figured Morgans acknowledgement should be acknowledged.)

--- Quote --- "But I don't like you. I think you are dangerous" His mouth twisted. "But I am no longer convinced you these things out of malice. I think you lack discipline and judgement. You have repeatedly demonstrated your willingness to put yourself in harm's way to protect others. As much as it galls me to admit it, I don't think you have any evil intentions. I think your questionable actions are the result of arrogance and poor judgement. In ther end it matters little why you do it. But I cannot in good conscience condemn you for it without giving you some sort of chance to prove me wrong."
--- End quote ---
It's basically the entire journal entry so reread and enjoy. It's a great addition to the lore:
https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/morgan-microfiction-rpg-art-and-more

So Maggie and Morgan were friends enough for Morgan to promise to look out for her son despite her shaky relationship with the council. A promise he broke regardless.

Dresden was vanished from all record.

The Adversary (who we know is Nemesis from Mother Winter) has pretty much cursed Dresden.

There were 'controls' that Morgan could trigger.

Harry could be a 'Destroyer' lets assume Kemmler and Drakul are Destoryers.

oh and that throw away line of 'web of conflicts' among the Senior Council could have been what LtW was talking about needing favours.

Alright relevant WOJ
(click to show/hide)Yeah we get some more information in Battle Ground so the question then became... we've had for a while that she was born in the right time frame I think is as close as we got and so we're like "is there /a/ starborn or not?" and obviously in Battle Ground there are multiple now and they're concurrently operating so it opens up some more of those questions.

Yeah there were forty or fifty thousand at first.

What.

Starborn.

Since the beginning of time or right now?

No there were forty or fifty thousand starborn in this cycle at first.

And then they get whittled down.

Yeah it's been about close to forty years there ain't so many of them left.

So is being starborn a pre... do you have to have been mortal to be a starborn?

You just have to have been in the right place. Really you just have to have been unlucky.

Okay, I was just thinking of if Drakul, that's how you say it right? If he was a mortal once, it was like a side thought I just had.

Ooh I mean, you'll have to see as we go along we'll get more stuff as we get to the grand climactic bits and it'll be fun.

Even if he had been mortal I had a feeling it would be a "you'll have to see".

Yeah.

Well you mentioned before once that he was something unhuman and got put mortal so I guess we're not going to get to find out what he was once yet?

Well not today.

So at least on his more historical timeframe um, I was wondering, there seems to be a slight discrepancy at least on how old the Black Court is because, is that just because Drakul and Drakula (go away book bot) I assume they're older than their historical personas?

Yes, Drakul especially. Drakul has been somebody that popped up in various places in history. I mean history's full of little monsters that aren't really particularly remembered and he's been several of them.

So kind of like Odin with his Beowulf and all that.

Yeah exactly. Once you're immortal and you're interacting with mortals and you know they're just a pain unless you deal with them Memento style, you know, by vanishing from their memory. It just makes life simpler for you when you're an immortal. Oh my gosh, the humans and their issues.

is his son old enough, how old essentially is the Black Court? Are they the oldest court or are they just...

Okay the Black Court itself is not too much older than Drakula cause has the one who really kind of went crazy making more vampires. His father didn't he just wanted a small handpicked crew of people who were awesome and that was his way of making supersoldiers, was Black Court vampires. But Drakula wanted more of that and sort of let it loose into the world and his father was very displeased.

So it was Drakul who made the Black Court vampires?

Yeah.

We were a little confused, we weren't sure if it was Drakula and Drakul was like "that's a neat thing you made there son, I'm taking it".

Drakul made them, Drakula was the one who made them popular I suppose is the way to think of it. But you've actually seen how Drakul operates, that's just how he's gone through his whole career. Is with this tight group of enforcers and then himself being awesome.

When we saw that scene in the graveyard and I saw that Mavra was the drummer I was like "who are these other guys if she's drumming?"

The old guard, the ones who are still alive, the ones who lived.

--- Quote ---And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn't a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father's approval.
It didn't work out so well.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---Well yeah there's only one guy who can soulgaze with a kraken and the kraken's scared of him, right.

Well essentially yeah. That was more a starborn thing but anyway. There you go free one for the audience.
--- End quote ---


--- Quote --- Alright, so, then as much as we can get about Nemesis now that we can see it's taken someone particularly close to Dresden and his brother. Is there really just one way that it spreads from person to person/being to being or are there particular requirements that have to be met?

Not terribly. The only limit it has is how many places it can be at once, it can only be in so many places at once.

But it's more than a couple because we've seen at least a few at the same time.

More than a couple but there's a limit.

Less than forty thousand starborn.

Less than forty thousand starborn, correct. The whole point of the starborn is that they don't have to put up with the nonsense from the outsiders, stuff like Nemesis taking them over.

--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---Priscellie: How long have starborns been a thing? Is it recent millennia or much further back?

Jim: Oh for many many many many many moons, as long as anyone remembers, including among the supernatural memories. That's been going since creation got started, it's sort of a well you'll see what it is later when we talk about it more.

--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.
--- End quote ---

WOJ on Kemmler being Warden

--- Quote ---Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?

Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...

Priscellie: Oh god. *laughs*

Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.

Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?

Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.

Priscellie: Is that the only way out?

Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because amon the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I thing he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?

Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.
--- End quote ---

So thats every quote from the series or WOJ that I can find directly dealing with starborn mania. Discuss, critisize, correct, add or subtract. But if you need a question topic as most of the good topics do.

Why is everyone so nervous about telling Harry?

If it was just about Power, Why would Ebenezar, Listens and River feel guilty? Listens is a good guy a doctor and a healer, who doesn't want to hrut Harry and who isn't sure it's his call alone. Rivers thinks he owes Harry not just for protecting his son but bringing them closer, but still not for him to say.

Ebenezar. He's Blackstaff who kills thousands of humans the only time he's felt guilty about it was telling Harry. The other biggest secret was he was his Grandfather. Hell Ebenezar outright duelled Harry over White Court when he thought he was in the right.

Rashid and Vadderung both say beings are now watching Harry closely because he came back from the dead and implied because he's Star Born. The next book Harry actually meets a God of Death, Hades. Maybe Hades had to sign off on someone being brought back that they're worthy?

Mab and Drakul both seem to think Immortality is possible and maybe on the horizon for Harry.

(Ok so siigh personal note this post is close to 3000 words sorry for the info dump and I really hope I got all the damn coding and brackets right)

(edited:Added Morris's Blood Rites quote, Kemmler being Warden and Drakul being a Scion.)

(edited: added Rashids council discussion and Morgans admission of wrong)

morriswalters:
I'll add some pieces.  Harry was raised to be a sociopath. Isolated and abused. 

Butcher may have set the stage in Grave Peril when he has Harry go berserk and burn down the mansion.  Harry stops his heart from the stress of the magic he uses.

This happens again in Blood Rites. Eb tells him that Raith killed his mother and again he goes into a berserker rage and Eb must squeeze his burnt hand to stop him.

In Changes he loses two minutes of time when he triggers the bloodline curse and kills the vampires. And people world wide have nightmares.

Finally then Battle Ground and the berserker fury overtakes Harry once again and the sword hurts him to stop him.

If you wish you may want to add this quote from Blood Rites
--- Quote ---She touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."
--- End quote ---

We may know where the plot was laid.  Eb refers to what I assume was the genesis, which is the meeting where Arianna discovers the relationship between Eb and Margaret.  All of the player were there.  Raith, Eb, Arianna and Margaret.

Conspiracy Theorist:
In Journal it’s Destroyer capitalised, there is a whole page on Wikipedia about Destroyer Gods and they list 15 that may be what is meant. A Starborn has the potential to become a Destroyer God, like Shiva or Ahriman.

That may be what Drakul is, a Starborn who became a Destroyer god and then had to step down like Odin, but for different reasons, and got stuffed into a human body .Erlik is a good match, with Junior being one of his sons (god’s of evil, darkness, chaos, discord etc)

Kemmler, no, but not for want of trying, and the Darkhallow is the mechanism for both Drakul to regain his Destroyer godhood, and for Harry to become a Destroyer in his own right, which explains why Mavra wanted the Darkhallow, for Drakul, and with Journal being written after Dead Beat, Morgan MUST have made that connection. Would this mean Cowl is also a Starborn from a previous cycle like Drakul? It would certainly suggest Cowl is not Drakul .

Yuillegan:
Great stuff Con!

I think the fact that there were 40,000 give or take suggests that it isn't as uncommon for something to become a star born - but far more uncommon to survive for very long. I suspect most die not even knowing what they were.

So for us that means plenty of potential candidates - mortal or otherwise. And that's just from Harry's cycle. Let alone all the other cycles which apparently started at the beginning of time. Jim did indirectly hint at this stuff once upon a time when he said that Lucifer messed things up at the beginning of time doing his "shenanigans", if you can call a civil war that.

To answer your question (why is everyone so nervous about revealing the truth) I think Listens-to-Wind has answered that somewhat i.e. the knowledge could do worse than kill Harry. It might mean that far, far more people die. It might mean that Harry could end up becoming a terrible monster in his own right. It might mean that the knowledge drives him mad. It seems likely that the knowledge probably will make his life far worse (especially given how Jim writes).

I have another theory about the famous Psalm 23:1-6

--- Quote ---‘The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures: he
leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul: He leads me in the paths of
righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of
death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou
prepares a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anoints my head with oil; my
cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell
in the House of YHVH forever.'
--- End quote ---

Interesting that it talks of the rod and staff (of which Harry often uses both). The preparation of the table could be Harry being sacrificed at the Stone Table at Tir-Na-Nog (if you think the only purpose of that table is for the Courts of Faerie I think you might want to look deeper - think C.S. Lewis and his famous works). Anointing of the head with oil is the practice of cleansing but also of making things holy - indeed, the monarch of the United Kingdom is anointed in oil which transforms them from mortal to divine (or close enough, depending on what church you follow). The cup running over has been mentioned by Jim when discussing how much power could go into a particular vessel.


--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 15, 2022, 09:44:17 PM ---I'll add some pieces.  Harry was raised to be a sociopath. Isolated and abused. 

Butcher may have set the stage in Grave Peril when he has Harry go berserk and burn down the mansion.  Harry stops his heart from the stress of the magic he uses.

This happens again in Blood Rites. Eb tells him that Raith killed his mother and again he goes into a berserker rage and Eb must squeeze his burnt hand to stop him.

In Changes he loses two minutes of time when he triggers the bloodline curse and kills the vampires. And people world wide have nightmares.

Finally then Battle Ground and the berserker fury overtakes Harry once again and the sword hurts him to stop him.

If you wish you may want to add this quote from Blood Rites
We may know where the plot was laid.  Eb refers to what I assume was the genesis, which is the meeting where Arianna discovers the relationship between Eb and Margaret.  All of the player were there.  Raith, Eb, Arianna and Margaret.

--- End quote ---
Do you think his star born nature contributed to the treatment he received, or was the cause?

I suspect you're correct (and I also have long held the theory) that Harry's darkest impulses and rages are more than just being human. They are directly tied to his star born nature.

Particularly, the scene in Battle Ground where he attempts to kill Rudy is almost ripped from star wars...and Harry is the Sith Lord against Butters (Harry literally uses lightning - a signature of the Sith, and Butters is holding what amounts to a lightsabre). What's curious to me was that there was a smell of brimstone when Harry was burned by Butter's sword, and we have only ever had that smell occur around Hell power.

My guess is that part of being star born is the link to Lucifer and Hell, but I am not sure how. But I think that part of the price of resisting Outsiders is the Lucifer's own corruption.

Con:
Harry's rage as a symptom of Star Born could be relevant it could explain why Morgan tried to provoke Harry as much as possible/ If he can't control his rage he can't wield the power of Star Born responsibly.

I also agree Harry's childhood and how he was raised was text book to create someone with rage and trust issues. Ironcallly or tragically I've been watching some Good Will Hunting clips. Will the main character has some analogies. Child genius grew up in the system was abused by it, only trusts a limited circle of friends who he knows will back him up in a fight. Still has a desire for a strong and kind father figure.

So how much of that is just psychological human of growing up abused and how much is Dresden potentially going dark side. Probably a bit of both.


--- Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on February 15, 2022, 09:58:58 PM ---In Journal it’s Destroyer capitalised, there is a whole page on Wikipedia about Destroyer Gods and they list 15 that may be what is meant. A Starborn has the potential to become a Destroyer God, like Shiva or Ahriman.

That may be what Drakul is, a Starborn who became a Destroyer god and then had to step down like Odin, but for different reasons, and got stuffed into a human body .Erlik is a good match, with Junior being one of his sons (god’s of evil, darkness, chaos, discord etc)

Kemmler, no, but not for want of trying, and the Darkhallow is the mechanism for both Drakul to regain his Destroyer godhood, and for Harry to become a Destroyer in his own right, which explains why Mavra wanted the Darkhallow, for Drakul, and with Journal being written after Dead Beat, Morgan MUST have made that connection. Would this mean Cowl is also a Starborn from a previous cycle like Drakul? It would certainly suggest Cowl is not Drakul .

--- End quote ---

Kemmler got closer then most. I don't doubt he was one of the few Wizards who made it back from death like Vadderung says. There's a woj on Kemmler being the Warden before last and White Council scrambled to make sure he never reached the island. It didn't occur to me because I was focused on Star Born stuff not Warden stuff, but I'll add it here and in the original post now that I think of it.

--- Quote --- Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?

Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...

Priscellie: Oh god. *laughs*

Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.

Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?

Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.

Priscellie: Is that the only way out?

Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because amon the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I thing he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?

Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.
--- End quote ---

I don't think Cowl is Star Born. I think he's Simon Pietrovich so outside of the 666. I don't think you necessarily have to be Star Born to pull off Dark Hallow. Otherwise Corpsetaker and Grevane would be Star Born candidates as well.

Thanks Yuillegan!

I dunno about how directly that bible verse applies. I mean Jim isn't shy about Christian influence, but we usually only get the bible parallels when the Knights or even more specifically the Carpenters get involved.

As for telling Harry the truth. Their has to be some sort of personal betrayal to it for Ebenezar to feel so guilty about it, and it has to be more major then being Blackstaff, Being Grandfather and finding out Thomas is his Grandson. The last one was still fresh and there was still something that makes him hesitate.

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