The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Of two minds about this, on one hand yeah he is kind of bad at magic but it's getting a bit exaggerated just how incompetent he is at times. But on the other hand he definitely isn't senior council level considering Ebenezar is running around with a staff blast that's at least 1000x as strong and better coat equivalent and he's not the senior council's enchanting specialist, he's top of the line for his generation when it comes to making things but still can't hold a candle to the older wizards in skill.
--- End quote ---
He isn't bad at magic, he just isn't as formally trained as some. Yes, Justin gave him some of the basics, but when Harry killed him and was declared a full wizard he was only sixteen, many apprentices are just getting into the meat of their training at age, he was with Eb until the age of nineteen, but Eb taught him little or no magic during those three years. Some books were forbidden to him at the Council Headquarters, it is almost like the Council is afraid if he learns too much magic they won't be able to control him at all. In a lot of ways, Harry is self taught, and he only learns what he needs to, to survive. Yes, he is very good at making his blasting rods and shield bracelets because no one would teach him or practice with him the finer points of attack and defense, so he had to improvise. Consider how good he became at mind defense and attack because he and Molly broke rules after Harry realized how bad the defense sanctioned by the Council. How much better he has gotten over all because he has had to study in order to teach Molly, as Eb predicted. I think that in of itself has taught Harry a lesson, he knows now he has to be better, so he will study.. And he still has the Winter Lady to spar with, if she has time.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: vincentric on June 18, 2021, 02:35:49 PM ---While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.
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Even Hand explained that what he's doing with the antique guns is enchanting them to punch through shields. Looking obsolete is camoflage for how dangerous they really are.
Yuillegan:
--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on June 18, 2021, 02:26:05 PM ---He's probably right about Marcone being not up to par in a number of ways, because Marcone is supposed to be keeping pace with Harry rather than being better both in terms of brawling and organisation. Marcone could still win a 1v1 if he let Namshiel take the wheel for a few minutes but fat chance of that.
As for why the other denarians don't really make with the magic too much, presumably because if every denarian was a super-wizard on top of their other abilities it'd be just absolutely impossible to balance them as an antagonist.
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Based on what Harry had seen of Marcone at the time of course. Mira is right that we haven't yet seen a whole lot yet from Marcone...which doesn't mean Marcone can't do certain things of course.
I found the answer to the Denarian problem is way back in Death Masks. It's that a wizard gets a real upgrade compared to a mortal with no training. Which could suggest that Marcone has had magical talent a LOT longer than he has been letting on. Which would make sense. Marcone doesn't advertise more than he has to.
--- Quote from: vincentric on June 18, 2021, 02:35:49 PM ---Marcone/Namshiel have no real shot at defeating Harry in a duel at present.
While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.
That's not to say he won't become a magical threat. It just makes more sense for him to learn defensive magic first and rely on his army of troubleshooters for offense. Once he feels he can adequately defend against one or two Wardens, he start learning offense so he can be more self-sufficient. He only revealed what he had because Ethniu was an unexpected situation and the battle was at the desperate last stand there on the beach.
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Don't be surprised when he does demonstrate massive offensive capability though. He might just be more economical than Harry. Not to mention Marcone doesn't show more than he needs to as you even say. He might have waited years to reveal his Coin and magic until Ethniu forced his hand. Which shows just how dangerous the guy is.
--- Quote from: morriswalters on June 18, 2021, 05:38:20 PM ---Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.
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I wouldn't be so sure of that. He might not have liked the odds but it's his comments that give it away. He says he has finally begun to think long term...from a guy who was already thinking fairly long term (certainly longer than most, especially Dresden). He might starting to be thinking in terms of centuries, if not longer. He might have realised it's better to let Dresden dig his own grave than take him head on. He might have realised that taking the Eye will only further isolate Harry from his remaining allies and bring more heat.
Marcone likely didn't want more scrutiny or attacks, especially after a large part of his resources would have been drained from the battle. He likely has longer term plans he doesn't want looked at and is probably using Dresden as the distraction. In the end, Harry's life is more violent and will probably end that way. He also likely doesn't want Dresden as an enemy until he is absolutely sure of victory, something which every other villain has underestimated. Marcone won't.
As others pointed out, he also didn't know he would lose his castle...but don't be shocked if he leaves a present or two for Dresden.
--- Quote from: groinkick on June 19, 2021, 02:00:39 AM ---Maybe he did.... Or maybe he was the one who showed up and stopped it.
Well I don't think he realized his castle was up for grabs at that point. It did cost him the Eye but I don't think it had to do with the odds against Harry on his own. Harry did have the Spear of destiny with him, and it may be on par with or more powerful than one of the Swords. If Harry had been without it, who knows. That being said Marcone did say that he had a more longer term perspective. Perhaps it has to do with Harry the Starborn. Maybe he knows Harry is going to be needed, or see's him as a tool for later, or that ticking off Mab wasn't worth the trouble.
That's because Marcone keeps his abilities close to the vest, he doesn't boast. He's had the Coin for years and just now showed his cards because he had to. He didn't use offensive abilities because they wouldn't have been effective against a Titan, and would have been a waste of time and energy.
We know that Fallen can throw around Hellfire, a devastating, destructive force. At the very least Marcone has that. Also he broke down concrete at the molecular level. What do you think he could do to a human body?
"I noted, somewhere in the academic vaults of my head, that magic like that was like unbaking a damned cake back into its original components" "Ramirez was good. Better than me, on a technical level, by a considerable margin" - Harry
"I just broke down the molecular structure of concrete and then chemically re-formed it inside a mold of pure will" - Marcone
One could argue that Marcone not only is capable of what Ramirez did, but by re-forming it is beyond Carlos's abilities. Carlos broke down the molecular structure, we haven't seen him reform something on that level. Destroying is easier than creating.
Displayed in some of the short stories, Marcone has been preparing for a showdown with Dresden for many years. His special bullets were created by Gard (maybe he does them now I don't know). He had come up with strategies to defeat Harry like using explosives to wear him down, a sprinkler system to dampen his magic, and the special bullets to go through his shield to kill him... Now he has a Coin, and has shown to be a very capable magic user. I find it highly unlikely he hasn't been learning offensive magic. He's shown to be at an expert level with some magic already. Harry has said that fire magic is easy, and one of the first things a wizard learns. Marcone at the very least could probably burn Harry to a crisp.
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Agree with pretty much all of this. That being said Harry has one thing Marcone doesn't have...plot power! Jim will make him win because he's the hero after all. Hopefully it is justified well enough to be believable.
Basil:
Harry would loose to Thorned Marcone, pretty badly.
First, Thorned Marcone is much better at magic than Harry. I'm not sure what more you'd want to witness from a Wizard beyond teleportation and molecular disintegration and reintegration in seconds.
Second, Thorned Marcone gets the relative imperviousness from injury that the Coins provide. While the Winter Mantle is great, if you break Harry's neck, he isn't coming back from that in mere moments.
Third, Harry is actually not very good at magical combat. I'd liken him to a gigantic (and magical) version of Butterbean. Butterbean was a huge man, almost 400 pounds at his boxing weight, though not all that tall. He could dish out punishment and absorb punishment like no one could. As a result, he won a lot of boxing matches. But, he was not a very skillful as a "boxer." He was a puncher and an absolute tank and he'd fought a lot of bouts (about 100). He relied on those things and got by on them. While he had a nice career, he was never going to be the champ.
Similarly, Harry relies on having a bigger battery than almost everyone else. He runs into trouble, he pushes more energy into the problem.
Worse, I think, this experience has made Harry delude himself into thinking that he is a magical thug, and little more. In actuality, he is really good at subtle things and if he'd adjust his outlook he could be a lot better at combat.
Mira:
--- Quote ---Harry would loose to Thorned Marcone, pretty badly.
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At the Aquarium with the help of Soul Fire he didn't do too badly... He has learned a lot since then both about wizard combat and what Soul Fire can do, not to mention the Winter Knight's mantle..
--- Quote ---Second, Thorned Marcone gets the relative imperviousness from injury that the Coins provide. While the Winter Mantle is great, if you break Harry's neck, he isn't coming back from that in mere moments.
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Neither is Marcone, even with a coin.
--- Quote ---Third, Harry is actually not very good at magical combat. I'd liken him to a gigantic (and magical) version of Butterbean. Butterbean was a huge man, almost 400 pounds at his boxing weight, though not all that tall. He could dish out punishment and absorb punishment like no one could. As a result, he won a lot of boxing matches. But, he was not a very skillful as a "boxer." He was a puncher and an absolute tank and he'd fought a lot of bouts (about 100). He relied on those things and got by on them. While he had a nice career, he was never going to be the champ.
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No? For a guy not good at magical combat he's done pretty well.. It is more like you are describing Ali's "rope-a-dope," he took a lot of punishment as well, but he could also float like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Harry has managed that a few times.
--- Quote ---Similarly, Harry relies on having a bigger battery than almost everyone else. He runs into trouble, he pushes more energy into the problem.
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Well, having a bigger battery and more will than anyone else is a big advantage.. He is learning to pace himself, but that takes time.
--- Quote ---Worse, I think, this experience has made Harry delude himself into thinking that he is a magical thug, and little more. In actuality, he is really good at subtle things and if he'd adjust his outlook he could be a lot better at combat.
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He was at the beginning, but he isn't that any longer, teaching Molly has helped a lot.. He can do mind duels now and hold his own, that isn't a thuggish thing.
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