The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]

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The_Sibelis:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on December 01, 2020, 06:43:54 AM ---Except it is quite literally Angels in Nails/Swords versus Fallen Angels in Coins. Forces of Heaven versus the forces of Hell. A Microcosm of the great conflict between the two. But every win the Knights get against the Denarians seems to make things worse for Hell, and better for Heaven.

If you fight a soldier from another country in combat, you are not merely fighting that soldier. You are also in conflict with that country. It's not a separate thing. Unless you believe the Denarians have their own agenda separate from Hell's...

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except that balance doesn't make sense at all. That's early readers saying," it's clearly summer vs Winter,l... except that it's actually not. That's just what we saw. Look at what we're discussing. Reality created by a god. That reality has balances inside it simply to be checks to keep the balance from going to the outsiders. If TWG made reality,  hell is not it's equivalent. Just like summer is not winters equal. It's just the check.
What you mean to say, is unless the church has its own agenda outside of the swords, which nic has implied is the case. 3 swords, three walkers of equal but opposite metaphysical connection.. the Denarians aren't even their real primary enemy. Hell nor the Denarians exist to be the Enemy. TWG champions free will, Lucifer counters that by not even believing in the reality of freedom. They balance. But Lucifer doesn't equal the power of TWG.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on December 01, 2020, 07:22:55 AM ---except that balance doesn't make sense at all. That's early readers saying," it's clearly summer vs Winter,l... except that it's actually not. That's just what we saw. Look at what we're discussing. Reality created by a god. That reality has balances inside it simply to be checks to keep the balance from going to the outsiders. If TWG made reality,  hell is not it's equivalent. Just like summer is not winters equal. It's just the check.
What you mean to say, is unless the church has its own agenda outside of the swords, which nic has implied is the case. 3 swords, three walkers of equal but opposite metaphysical connection.. the Denarians aren't even their real primary enemy. Hell nor the Denarians exist to be the Enemy. TWG champions free will, Lucifer counters that by not even believing in the reality of freedom. They balance. But Lucifer doesn't equal the power of TWG.

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I don't think that Lucifer is TWGs equal in power. But he's certainly more free to act, if the rules of the Dresden Files are upheld. More power = less ability to act. And if anything, Lucifer clearly isn't against Freedom or Free Will. He rebelled and so clearly had some measure of it. Jim has even said as much. If he didn't believe in Free Will he wouldn't have rebelled. It's more accurate I think that the theory might be that Lucifer just doesn't believe TWG is going about things the right way. Perhaps he believes he can do better. Jim has said Lucifer and TWG are having an argument about Reality, and I suspect the crux of it is that mortals have limitless Free Will. Perhaps Lucifer thinks that's too dangerous or unfair. The real question is why TWG thinks it isn't. Why do we need Free Will? Why can't the Angels or other powerful entities have it? Is it fair that only mortals have it?

Mab gives it away a little in BG. She says Love and Hate are not opposite forces, but the same force in opposite directions. Hellfire and Soulfire. Heaven and Hell. She says reason is the opposite of Hate/Love. But I don't know that she is right there either. Reason is a product of order, and therefore really and opposite of chaos. Chaos isn't evil. Order isn't good. They are just what they are.

The Church is hardly the representative anymore (at least in the Dresden universe) of TWG and his forces. There's so many for a start, so many interpretations. Most of them are about as connected as anyone else is. The Knights of the Cross however, are much more connected. They are the most prominent agents in the mortal world, armed with weapons coated in the blood (no insignificant thing) of TWG's own mortal avatar. The are given direct orders from TWG himself, as per Day One. So while I am sure the Church have their own agenda separate from the Knights, it's not all that relevant. It might even be serving more insidious agendas.

Three Angels against 30 Fallen might not seem like a balanced fight, but it isn't just that. It's 3 Angels PLUS the Blood of Christ. And they work together. The Denarians just as often betray each other as work together, and they have no boost from TWG or even Lucifer (as far as we know). That's why the Denarians often lose, they are often taken out 3 on one or even by each other. And it really comes down to the fact that when the Knights are aligned with their purpose, they are unstoppable. The Denarians have betrayed their true purpose, and therefore their foundation is weak.

What I think you might be getting at is that the main fight is Creation versus Outside. The Fae as a whole are from Reality and therefore are against Outside. So are both Heaven and Hell. Doesn't mean that some beings haven't thrown their lot in with the Outsiders - as is clearly the case with the Black Council etc. But Winter and Summer are still opposites within Reality. That doesn't change either. That's part of their point too.

If the Swords, and the Nails by extension, were against the Outside as their true purpose (and the Walkers by extension) wouldn't they have been involved in the original fight where the Outsiders were kicked out or the Walkers be involved in the Crucifixion? No. The Crucifixion was a rebalancing of the board per WOJ, and only happened a relatively short time ago in respect to the age of the Universe. The Outsiders seem to have been around since before Creation. It's a much older conflict. Besides, the Walkers are Archangel level. If they have opposites it's the Archangel's themselves.

The_Sibelis:
Might wanna go reread the aura created to contain ivy using Lucifer's power...
And as a matter of fact I do think the walkers were involved in the crucifixion, but that's not really the point. And we don't know what kinda grace the swords have, could be they're archangel level. More importantly though, the swords work against outsiders, and they're vulnerable to them at the same time. Swords don't meet walkers, because that's dangerous to the sword. If love and hate are the same, so are fear and hope and despair and faith. The walkers would then have the same metaphysics as the swords as far as where their power comes from. True opposites, two sides to the same coin... Equals.

TheCuriousFan:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on November 30, 2020, 09:46:27 PM ---Hmm. While I have always felt there was an Outsider connection to the White Court (and all the Vampires - this is all but confirmed in BG), I am not sure about whether they are the opposition as such to Heaven. Jim seems to work on the D&D four poles (Law, Chaos, Good, Evil) with his own twist. By using that rather crude format we must assume Heaven is Lawful Good, Hell is Lawful Evil, the Outsiders are Chaotic Evil and the Fae are Chaotic Good (roughly). My point is that if the Houses of the White Courts are the opposites of the Swords, then the Outsiders are less likely to be the sponsors of the White Court. It would indicate their origins lie in the Infernal realms. Which is certainly possible. I say this as the Swords seem to be most seriously opposed to Hell and more specifically the Denarians. Everything else is just extra.

But if the White Court is related in some way to the Outsiders then it's quite plausible that each house has a patron of one of the Walkers. Well, the three main houses anyway. There are several smaller houses who would perhaps have lesser Outsiders as patrons.

I very much like the comparisons made to each of the Walker from their psychic weapons of choice. I do feel it would be more thematic if Behind was related most to Love, as he is the greatest of the Walkers (if memory serves) and Love is the greatest of the Virtues (at least in some interpretations but more importantly in Jim's novels).

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Ah, so you think Drakul's starborn+black court connections are supposed to hint at that too?

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on December 01, 2020, 11:02:30 AM ---Ah, so you think Drakul's starborn+black court connections are supposed to hint at that too?

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Absolutely! The starborn's literally exist to wield power over Outsiders (at least in part) and Drakul is a starborn. He also seems to know what the real game is and is determined to win. But in general, every single Court of Vampires has had some association with Outsiders. The Reds and Whites both have summoned them. We haven't seen the Black Court summon any Outsiders but Black Court activity has been associated with Outsiders, and many of their darker traits seem to be linked. But also Drakul's will attack is just the same as the Lords of the Outer Night, but greater than all of them.


--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on December 01, 2020, 08:03:29 AM ---Might wanna go reread the aura created to contain ivy using Lucifer's power...
And as a matter of fact I do think the walkers were involved in the crucifixion, but that's not really the point. And we don't know what kinda grace the swords have, could be they're archangel level. More importantly though, the swords work against outsiders, and they're vulnerable to them at the same time. Swords don't meet walkers, because that's dangerous to the sword. If love and hate are the same, so are fear and hope and despair and faith. The walkers would then have the same metaphysics as the swords as far as where their power comes from. True opposites, two sides to the same coin... Equals.

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Aura? Not sure what you mean. The Hellfire beams used to create the Signs were literally powered by Hell. Harry thought in SmF and in BG that it was Lucifer himself doing it, but Harry is an unreliable narrator and Jim contradicts this in a recent WOJ and says it was more likely one of Lucifer's subsidiaries rather than the CEO himself. The pentagram was also Infernal in origin...so not sure what you mean here.

I'd love to hear your theories on how the Walkers were involved in the Crucifixion. That's an interesting idea - but I haven't seen any hints suggesting that myself or heard any theories about it. Doubt the Swords have Archangel power behind them, and certainly not bound within them. The Archangels are too important to the functioning of Creation to be trapped in a Nail in a single universe. Even throughout the multiverse. And there are FOUR Archangels in Jim's mythos: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel. Lucifer is one too...but he also isn't an Angel exactly. He isn't God's messenger so the term is wrong. But his power doesn't appear to be lessened. Anyway, Michael (the Archangel) actually gave Esperacchius to Sanya. So he could hardly be doing that while also in a Sword. Would defeat the purpose of binding an Angel into an object if they could also be anywhere else they liked.

I don't remember anything about the Swords being vulnerable to the Walkers more-so than any other being. The Swords are vulnerable to human choice, specifically the Choice to use them against their purpose. Death of innocents, specifically innocent blood. Nicodemus included, technically, if he is giving up willingly. An act of Hate destroys Amoracchius, an act of Despair destroys Esperacchius, an act of Treachery/Faithlessness destroys Fidelacchius. Killing an innocent or defenceless person asking for mercy would be any of these. But I don't see how the Walkers could destroy them on their own. The only person we have seen capable of doing it is Nicodemus via manipulation. Really, it's the wielder who has the power. It's their choice in the end. If the Swords were able to be destroyed by the Outsiders I suspect it would have been done already and Michael wouldn't have been able to help out against them.

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