The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Walkers and Swords and Houses [BG Spoilers]

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The_Sibelis:
(okay... but if I ramble, just remember, you asked lol) The aura... The... Substance of the binding. How it was described via a channeling. I'll have to find my book later today and reread it. Idk, that does throw a wrench in the actual story, as Uriel could intervene with giving Harry soul fire based on Lucifer's power being spent on earth too. I felt he pretty much confirmed that when he interrupted Harry's rant as jake the janitor.
The walkers making the swords vulnerable came from an old theory here... Something about how they're never around at the same time. An if Michael could be in two places at once depends on if someone else cheated first, Lasciel was supposed to be stuck in a coin bit somehow managed to be the whisper that pushed Harry to suicide in CH, so it's not entirely unprecedented for them to have options.
Note though that I see a difference between breaking the sword and actually unmaking it. Nic broke a sword, Mavra was trying to unmake it entirely.. which given that the swords have angels.. I compare it to Michael having the possibility of making Uriel Fall. If they misuse it it won't just break, it'll mess up the jumbo jet inside the swords.
Which brings me to how I think the swords are connected to the walkers. We know through Woj the swords existed before the crucifixion. But what about the nails? They had similar power before the crucifixion, so perhaps the nails were a different part of the equation elsewhere. I think they were basically the weapons of the horsemen of the apocalypse.(which is slightly skewed now until a 4th walker actually appears, I know. It doesn't match as perfectly atm, but I think it will, in the end). Looking at the knights and Uriel, I feel like the three swords are the horsemen for our era, (which walkers with beasts of burden, ala' human hosts, are horsemen. It's a Jim pun) with Uriel being death, the one who utilizes all three. They're champions of Fate, which is currently set at free will. So previous to the crucifixion I think they weren't working for the good side, and these previous identities are what became the walkers. I think Jim mixed Nortia, Nemesis' etruscan version and her association with nails that pin down the fate of humanity with the nails of the cross. TWC saved us from our fate by dying for us after all.
Which actually mixes directly with how I think the vampire courts are associated with outsiders... There are seven courts, of that Jim was specific, but he only bothered to really flesh out 3-4. That seems arbitrary to have a specific number but not utilize them, unless he had the number for a metaphysical reason. Sin was said to be an unbalanced force in the universe. If that's true then the 7 courts are manifestations of the seven deadly sins. Before TWC took our sins, they were what Lucifer used as the adversary, the unbalanced forces in the universe he could act through. This is based on the order of the kabbalah, Lucifer used to be the adversary before he fell.(the only time he acts in this role in the bible is Job) at which point his wife, Lilith took his role.
To me, every time the cycle repeats itself whatever force is currently attacking, whichever identity they're using, finds its place on the inside thereby denying them it's future use. Mab is a great example of this, in Odin's time they fought Jotuns. Now Mab made an identity for that force inside reality.(Harry's huge apartment was a clue imo, of the origins of her power/stronghold) Lucifer and sin used to be an unbalanced force, then hell was brought into the NN as part of reality.(which, is partly the idea of a prison is made in each cycle too)
The threat from the walkers, well, if they're using our own forces of creation against us, there's only a few things it could be, Magic, or they've figured out how to reverse the metaphorical coin and access both sides.(and being vulnerable to your own power is pretty standard in the DF) Nemesis using Thomas's love against him is a good example of that... And I confess... I think butters getting with two women is perhaps another example.. Lea thought having true love protection would protect her from,"that which stalks us all." But it didn't.
Mmmm, lost my thread, so I'll stop there lol.
Okay little more to ramble about. The 'powers' of the horsemen have been seen and gave their own avatar in the DF. When Nic does the plague curse he says he's on a deadline, thinking it was a timed event that was going to manifest one of the walkers power. In this case whomever used to be pestilence. Which ties into what I think the purpose of the denarians is to take up the space of the walkers and utilize the power they had so that they can't have it back.
The current order of Gods have the same aspects but they're broken down into different elements. 4 beings of relative free will, the two knights and the two kings. EK for instance would likely be a reflection of conquest, by beast and sword. Molly mirrors the WL from being trained by Lea to use fear as a weapon (also she was taught how to use fear to take free will earlier, they were trying to make her a reflection for fearbringer) so the winter court is likely broken down from fearbringer mainly. I think the four walkers(I know, only three, but wait and see..) plus the judge are the 5 main reaccuring archatypes seen through out the pantheons, and possibly the 5 primary starborn. Lachesis is the chooser, nemesis the chooser of Fate, Gard the chooser of the slain... And I don't know if you noticed but Murphy was awfully pushy... And she actually killed a least two nemfected characters of the top of my head, Denton and Maeve. Even her name is suspect, Murphy and Murphy's law are relative... Especially if I add in the theory of where magic comes from...
.... Eg gads what I wouldn't do to get some off the record conversation with Jim about some of this stuff... He goes deeeeeeep in the rabbit hole on some things.

Griffyn612:

--- Quote from: Yuillegan on November 30, 2020, 09:46:27 PM ---I do feel it would be more thematic if Behind was related most to Love, as he is the greatest of the Walkers (if memory serves) and Love is the greatest of the Virtues (at least in some interpretations but more importantly in Jim's novels).

--- End quote ---
Behind is the most *potent*, not necessarily the greatest/strongest. Beside seems to be the brains, possibly the longest lasting, and potentially the greatest/strongest in terms of impact. Behind is just potent in that he can act directly against humans without a host.

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on December 02, 2020, 02:53:28 AM ---Behind is the most *potent*, not necessarily the greatest/strongest. Beside seems to be the brains, possibly the longest lasting, and potentially the greatest/strongest in terms of impact. Behind is just potent in that he can act directly against humans without a host.

--- End quote ---
Potent meaning powerful...and technically the only one that Jim said could end universes. But I see you're point. I'd argue the Beside is the most dangerous currently, based on what he has achieved. In terms of magical muscle I suspect it's still Behind. Behind is the Langtry to Beside's Rashid, to me. Before is a bit of an unknown quantity. Didn't seem all that big and bad, but Harry seemed to think he could eat Mab alive and he has got closer to causing the end of the world (as far as we know) than any of the others. So that's something.

Sibelis - I did ask, so that's on me  :P
1) Still not totally clear on the aura. My best guess is you are referring to the properties associated with the design of the Pentagram - namely the Power without Restraint pentagram thing. The same symbol that Kemmler and his acolytes used. Could be a combination of both Outsider and Infernal power? Seems odd though...I feel like they wouldn't work together really. If both Lucifer and Uriel actually got subordinates to do their work (e.g. Lucifer asks a Duke of the Fallen to actually power the Sign and Uriel asks one of his Angel chiefs of equivalent rank) then it works.
2) It is interesting they are never around at the same time, as far as I am aware. I suspect that's more to do with the Swords being more involved in the War against Heaven than against the Outsiders. Doesn't mean that they wouldn't work though...
3) Did the Swords exist before Crucifixion? I haven't seen that WOJ, but surely that would only apply to Kusanagi (Fidelacchius). The others...I would be surprised by. Maybe they were great swords already that got a pretty special power boost. I am sure the Angels were not inside the Swords until there were Fallen in the Coins. And I highly doubt the Swords (assuming they did exist prior to the Crucifixion) would be stronger than after they got Angels placed in them PLUS the Nails from the Cross and the blood of the Redeemer.
4) Pretty sure Mother Winter is implied to be the Four Horsemen, or at least control them. Mother Summer has Wormwood amongst her diseases (one of the things that kicks off Revelations) and MW has four sets of teeth (Pearly White, Rotted, Serrated and pointed, and Metal). Each has been guessed at as one of the Four Horsemen (White = Death, Rotted = Plague, Serrated = Famine, Metal = War) or some variation. One even is that MW herself is the Fourth Horsemen and these are merely the ways in which Death can kill (Sword, Plague, Famine and Wild Beast).
5) Not sure that I can see He Who Walks Beside as the current Nemesis of which Lucifer was first. Pretty sure Lucifer is still the Adversary (at least of God, if not Man).
6) We're in the rabbit hole alright  ;) I doubt Jim would give any of us much useful info. But I agree it would be rather amazing to discuss some of the big stuff with him. Still though, guess we will have to read on to find out!

The_Sibelis:
3 as far as I remember they all existed before hand? I just read that Woj recently, it's in eldest gruffs 4th holy sword theory in the reference section.
4 mother winter ate them. You also see Lachesis' loom in the corner of her cottage in SK, but it's gone later.. smh, that just reminded me of an old theory I had on MW and the Old ones I hadn't thought about in years... I replaced it with a different one.. but the idea was whatever MW unmakes by eating is contained in her, she ate the horsemen but kept the teeth as their mantles basically.
5 no, no. The Adversary is a literal role in the bible, Lucifer used to occupy it before he became the Satan. The Adversary is a role, that's why Mab can say it aloud, but not Nemesis. A name. It stood out to me as soon as she said it so I started looking into it more back in the day. I was already somewhat familiar with the Adversary... Job is one of my favorite stories..

Yuillegan:

--- Quote from: The_Sibelis on December 02, 2020, 04:13:12 AM ---3 as far as I remember they all existed before hand? I just read that Woj recently, it's in eldest gruffs 4th holy sword theory in the reference section.
4 mother winter ate them. You also see Lachesis' loom in the corner of her cottage in SK, but it's gone later.. smh, that just reminded me of an old theory I had on MW and the Old ones I hadn't thought about in years... I replaced it with a different one.. but the idea was whatever MW unmakes by eating is contained in her, she ate the horsemen but kept the teeth as their mantles basically.
5 no, no. The Adversary is a literal role in the bible, Lucifer used to occupy it before he became the Satan. The Adversary is a role, that's why Mab can say it aloud, but not Nemesis. A name. It stood out to me as soon as she said it so I started looking into it more back in the day. I was already somewhat familiar with the Adversary... Job is one of my favorite stories..

--- End quote ---
I remember that WOJ - it doesn't actually say all the Swords existed prior to Crucifixion, just Kusanagi. It more goes into Jim's whole thing about Names, Mantles, Ideas etc being important. Fidelacchius is the spiritual successor to Kusangi, and inheritor of the ideas around it. It even contains some of the metal from that Sword. But they are not actually the same sword. No more than Narsil and Anduril in Lord of the Rings are.

Mother Winter ate the Four Horsemen? You are what you eat I suppose.

5 - You have conflated two things. You're taking the moniker "The Adversary" and assume it meant the role in the Bible. It does not. It's quite clear that Nemesis, the Walker (He Who Walks Behind), is the Adversary of the Fae. Not the Adversary in the Bible. Lucifer is his own being. Hasn't stopped being the Adversary of Heaven, as far as anything I have read. Particularly in-universe. Two Adversaries, two different conflicts.

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